82 réponses à ce sujet

[Lebanese Dude]

World design is a big one. Tons of art and sights to see but no depth or anything to really find in any of it. Find a cool lighthouse on the edge of the swamp but the only thing it's good for is too look at. No one lives there, no loot is hidden in it, nothing. That's MMO design.

 

Quest design. Every quest in every RPG involves fetching, sure, but they dress that up using a myriad of methods that make it feel like more. Story, faction play, choice and consequence, multiple methods of completion, multiple outcomes, multiple quest NPCs with different goals, etc. etc. Even a simple quest like finding a sexbot in New Vegas allows you different paths and people to talk to in order to find it, repair it, deliver it, etc. And that's a simple fetch quest in that game, one of the simplest there is. In Inquisition every sidequest is: you click on the note or NPC, get a sentence or two about collecting X or killing Y, go do it without any further dialog or choice, then turn it in. That's MMO design.

 

I can't believe I have to explain this to RPG gamers.

 

You conveniently ignore the main story quests, the companion quests, and the side-story quests.

 

Are those purely MMO design?

 

You know that one quest that dude gives you outside of Northshire Abbey to deliver supplies to the Goldshire inn?
It served to direct the player towards a new zone. It represented the breadcrumbs that guide the player around the world.

 

They have no purpose but to promote exploration and they have been implemented in all open-world RPGs, not just MMOs.

[Lebanese Dude]

With all due respect, most people who have legitimate criticism about DAI are labeled "trolls" or "people who don't know what good games are". Starting your argument by asserting your opposition is wrong and then telling them why you're wrong is why I avoid arguing on the bioware forums. Far too many people start an argument from a position of positive certainty that they are right and that everyone that disagrees is a mindless sheep who needs to be educated (see: OP). If that doesn't work, try not responding to the actual argument and dismiss your opponent based on one thing you dislike as if it is a legitimate argument (your response).

 

Where is the argument? Go ahead. Prove me wrong.

 

Nobody has provided a proper counterargument. There is no legitimate criticism, only mindless ranting without first understanding the facts or attempting to rationalize the other side (BioWare writers).

 

All I've seen is "it's too much optional content" and then a description that this game is an MMO.

[Lebanese Dude]

I don't have to prove you wrong, there is nothing to prove wrong, as your argument has no actual substance, and is purely an opinionated rant, very hyperbolic at times.

Facts:

 

 

Meanwhile, Dragon Age: Inquisition is a party-based narrative cinematic RPG with elements of open-world exploration. 

 

You see there's thing called a word budget. Mr. Gaider explains it far better than I ever could here. 

To sum it up, writing is not a free-for-all. There has to be certain limits.

 

1) You have 12 companions, each of which offering hours of content and thousands of lines of dialogue in the form of quests, conversations, and banter.

 

2) You have a long main quest that has divergent paths.

 

3) You have TWO previous games that have an effect on the current world, leading to a different world state each time you play the game.

 

 

Go ahead. Give me a counter-argument.

[Father_Jerusalem]

With all due respect, most people who have legitimate criticism about DAI are labeled "trolls" or "people who don't know what good games are". Starting your argument by asserting your opposition is wrong and then telling them why they're wrong is why I avoid arguing on the bioware forums. Far too many people start an argument from a position of positive certainty that they are right and that everyone that disagrees is a mindless sheep who needs to be educated (see: OP). If that doesn't work, try not responding to the actual argument and dismiss your opponent based on one thing you dislike as if it is a legitimate argument (your response).

 

Issues with the tactical camera is a legitimate complaint. The mouse and keyboard controls being bad (even if people have managed to rebind them to their liking) is a legitimate complaint. Stuttering during conversations is a legitimate complaint. The game crashing is a legitimate complaint.

 

Whinging about "too much optional content" is just that.

[Quaddis]

So your argument boils down to "there's too much of an optional thing"?

"Optional" is not very optional in this game.

[robmokron]

Im pretty sure DA:I has more "meaningful" or hand crafted side missions, than DA:O, I'd even argue that it potiential has more that DA:O and DA2 combined!

I think the issue is that bioware decided to fill the space with some fetch quests .

 

This is a example for merely the purpose of proving my point (not exact data by any means.) but think of it this way;

 

DA:O Lets say 80% side missions were "hand crafted" and the rest were fetch.

 

DA:I would probably be the opposite, 20% hand crafted and 80 fetch,

 

But keep in mind the Hinterlands itself is bigger than all of DA:O.. just saying

[Lebanese Dude]

I will, as long as I am not trying to prove intense hyperboles "wrong" with regular examples. All 3 of your examples blow out of proportion their respectful subjects because your whole post relies on these 3 because the earlier part of the argument focuses on undermining other games which doesn't do anything.

 

I'll just add that even if your hyperboles were true, that even if you had 12 companions "offering hours of content and thousands of lines of dialogue" (as vague as this claim is), a "long" main quest that has divergent paths, and "two previous games that have an effect on the current world, leading to a different world state each time you play the game" (even if the actual number of actual major things that are relevant to DAI's story from the past games is very minor), all that matters is the quality of these things, and all you did was list that these things exist in the game and expected it to be an argument when it isn't. And even if the game had all of that, DAI still has an overabundance of tedious fetch quests in every area, if budget is what is responsible for that design decision, then so be it, but the budget being responsible does not remove, or excuse, any negatives from the game.

 

Your points:

 

1) 12 companions do not necessarily offer hours of contnt and thousands of lines of dialogue".

 

Counterpoint:

 

Post by the lead writer of BioWare.

 

I quote: 

 

" The average party member in a BioWare game is going to have upwards of 2,000 lines of recorded dialogue specific to that character … and that’s solely for the dialogue used in their personal interactions with the player. Dialogue used elsewhere in the game, such as their combat soundsets or any role the character plays in the main plot, adds to that number. This is all dialogue which is going to be recorded, and much of it accompanied by cinematic cutscenes, and thus makes for a very expensive proposition." - David Gaider

 

On top of that...each companion has a unique quest to be completed by the player. Assuming each quest takes only 2 hours to complete (wild underestimation), then that's 24 hours solely for the companions.

 

2) The game is not necessarily long and does not have divergent paths.

 

Counterpoint:
 

What? This point proves itself. The main quest is substantially long and there are many different choices that can be made that lead to different outcomes.

 

3) There aren't many differences in the world state.

 

Counterpoint:

 

Every imported decision (some of the Keep decisions were not imported) has an affect on the game. Several have significant impact such as Alistair's fate, the Champion, the Warden's fate...etc...

 

You cannot discount the impact, as trivial as you claim it to be. There is a difference and it can amount to hundreds of lines of dialogue per character. Alistair's death alone can cause a whole different scenario in DAI to occur.

 

4) There are too many fetch quests.

 

Counterpoint:

Too much of an optional thing is just not a good argument. This is similar to claiming that there are too many resource nodes in Ashenvale. You can go ahead and mine every Copper Vein you find but that doesn't mean anything. 
Optional is optional.

 

---

 

 

 

Next?

[bluebullets]

people just like to b*tch

 

da:i is no different than any other open world rpg. skyrim has fetch quests too, but they're worse with terrible VA.

 

da:i is NOT all fetch quests. it's killing the templars, driving out bandits to save a zone, etc etc.. Is there a 10 ram meat quest? Yes. but it has context, which is more than I can say for WoW or skyrim.

[Quaddis]

Im pretty sure DA:I has more "meaningful" or hand crafted side missions, than DA:O, I'd even argue that it potiential has more that DA:O and DA2 combined!

I think the issue is that bioware decided to fill the space with some fetch quests .

 

This is a example for merely the purpose of proving my point (not exact data by any means.) but think of it this way;

 

DA:O Lets say 80% side missions were "hand crafted" and the rest were fetch.

 

DA:I would probably be the opposite, 20% hand crafted and 80 fetch,

 

But keep in mind the Hinterlands itself is bigger than all of DA:O.. just saying

Problem is, if you want to level up so that you can do main mission you have to do a tons of fetch here, mark there, gather this...

[Lebanese Dude]

"Optional" is not very optional in this game.

 

Yes you need to do some side quests to unlock more significant story plots but that's no different from being asked to deliver a potion or "earn the populace's trust" in the Witcher only to have you start a new storyline in a new zone.

[robmokron]

Problem is, if you want to level up so that you can do main mission you have to do a tons of fetch here, mark there, gather this...

Gameplay i can why players would find this annoying. But i dont think the fanbase wnats a game that the sidequests give no kind of reward. Side questing hard gives you experience and equipment. Which builds your character. Also (i've only been in the hinterlands, 30 hours in) the fetch quests have context. Youre doing them to get the inquisition a name for itself.

 

One problem i have with RPGs is that alot of side quests give me no motivation to do them.  For example "why would my character who could be a butt head, want to help someone bring flowers to a grave"

 

Maybe he wants to grow in power for the inquisition and knws this will put his name out? At least you can justify why an a hole is helping strangers.

[Elhanan]

Problem is, if you want to level up so that you can do main mission you have to do a tons of fetch here, mark there, gather this...

Nope; one may take the perks that gives bonuses for Codex entries, Kills, or other optional methods. Heard this same thing on SWTOR, and there are varied ways to play, if one takes the time to look. Side-quests are optional.

[ladyvader]

Have played 38 hrs, which includes 5 starts for the CC to try and get the look right for cut-scenes. And I am only 6th lvl in the Hinterlnds; the content is enormous! For me, it is much like SWTOR when I played it solo, but this time there is a party, can Pause and consider choices, tactics, etc. It is DA: the MMO for solo players.

So there are a lot of side-quests available. Personally, I choose the ones that fit my 'head canon' storyline, and can pass on those deemed to be minor. And again like SWTOR, many of the side-quests may be completed while playing and exploring for other quests. have only seen fit to ignore a single quest thus far, but may return when the area is secure.

Am quite pleased thus far.

This game feels more like ESO than SW:TOR and I have an active sub in SW:TOR after leaving ESO last month.  I'll agree, it feels like a MMO without being online with others.  I don't have to worry about someone else stealing crafting nodes.  

Expect for one thing.  Finding things underground when the ring of your map glows, that reminds me of finding the HK parts in SW:TOR, but not as tedious.

[Sasie]

Yes you need to do some side quests to unlock more significant story plots but that's no different from being asked to deliver a potion or "earn the populace's trust" in the Witcher only to have you start a new storyline in a new zone.

This games plays very different from the earlier dragon age games. Don't even try to deny it. As for criticism it simply comes down to personal taste, if someone doesn't like 90% of the content in the game it won't matter if it's 'optional' because it will require a *lot* of work to sort out the actual missions from the side quests/explorations/trash collect quests. 

Personally I like the game and put quite a few hours into it so far but there is still a lot of filler content they could have cut out of this. The requisition officer for example makes me sigh each time it has a quest. "Oh I might have something for you!" Me: Yes...? "Take a look". Same dialog -every- single time.

That it's optional is not a argument when the entire world is filled with things like this, for the people who are truly bothered by it there is simply no option to play the game and avoid it. It's a legitimate argument to say someone prefer a game that keeps much more focus on the actual plot over countless hours of exploring stuff that counts up to pretty much nothing.

If anything trying to tell people their personal taste is wrong is the real trolling in this thread.

[StingingVelvet]

You conveniently ignore the main story quests, the companion quests, and the side-story quests.

 

Are those purely MMO design?

 

I said sidequests, not main story quests. And you didn't address my complaints at all.

[Lebanese Dude]

1. Fair point on the dialogue. You still have no actual argument on what the topic is about, though, as you just listed 3 things and expected people to see your point when there is none.

 

2. Please define "substantially long". Substantially long is measured how? Relative to other games? Relative to the total time you played the game? I recently reloaded my save to finish the last big open area (and I finished every other area to about 95% completion along with every companion questline) in the game and that clocked my playthrough to 56~ hours. Out of these 56~ hours, the main story content has, at minimum, taken 15 hours, at maximum, 20 hours, and that's giving it more than it's worth. From this I can say it's not substantially long when compared to other RPGs, nor is it substantially long relative to the total time I played the game. The story does not really diverge, as you're still traveling down the same path, with a few variables. Your point on this is moot.

 

3. Each imported decision has an affect on the game. Firstly, I never claimed it doesn't. Please read the post again or stop intentionally twisting my words. I said that there are not a lot of things that majorly affect DAI's world state or main storyline. There aren't. You listed 3 things and then said "etc." because you can't recall any more things that have a major impact.

 

4. Yet again, you twist my argument into something you can only argue against. I did not say that the problem is that there is too much optional content. I said the problem is that that huge number of optional content is of very low quality. I'll repeat this once again for clarity's sake, the amount of optional content is not the problem, the quality of it is.

 

 

And yes, optional is optional. And yet, it is still a part of the game and subject to valid criticism. Just because it's optional does not make it resistant to criticism, and if a major aspect of the game is so displeasing to me the only way I can deal with it is to ignore that major aspect, then the game has a very serious flaw.

 

1. The points came after the word budget. Those points demonstrate what the word budget was used for.

 

2. So you're saying that the main quest, without anything else including zone exploration and side content took a "measly" 20 hours at most? Considering that each DAO area can be completed in 1-2 hours  at most if side content is skipped (with the Dwarf area taking twice that amount due to its shear scope), and that the endgame took around 2 hours... I'd clock the total main campaign to be around 20 hours as well. Is that not enough? I don't think the devs ever claimed that the story was more substantial than its predecessors.

 

3. I can list more.

a) Ruler of Orzammar

Connor and Isoldes' fate

c) Redcliffe's fate

d) Nature of the Beast outcome

e) Loghain's fate

f) Dark Ritual 

g) Fate of Flemeth

h) Fate of Feynriel

i) Varric's relationship with the Champion

j) Champion's relationship with the companions

k) Champion's personality

etc...

 

and those are just the major ones.

 

4. Quality? The fetch quests serve their purpose of driving exploration. What is good quality fetch quests? What I assume you are asking for are actual stories that require a bigger budget that BioWare could not afford. This would imply that you want them to sacrifice something else which they weren't capable of doing so. The writing process ends WAY before the game is released. They can't just keep writing and writing when they can't even implement what they wrote. Each sidequest would need its own animations, cinematics, dialogue...

 

They save that for the actual content that involves the main story, the side stories, and the companions. Is that not good enough?

[Lebanese Dude]

I said sidequests, not main story quests. And you didn't address my complaints at all.

 

Re-read the post and the other replies I posted. I'm not going to repeat myself every time someone posts something.

 

You said it's an MMO when the only thing it has in common (writing-wise) with it is the fetch quest design, which isn't even unique to MMOs.

 

Feeling something is your prerogative. I can't tell you what to feel.

 

Just don't call it something it is not.

[Lebanese Dude]

This games plays very different from the earlier dragon age games. Don't even try to deny it. As for criticism it simply comes down to personal taste, if someone doesn't like 90% of the content in the game it won't matter if it's 'optional' because it will require a *lot* of work to sort out the actual missions from the side quests/explorations/trash collect quests. 

Personally I like the game and put quite a few hours into it so far but there is still a lot of filler content they could have cut out of this. The requisition officer for example makes me sigh each time it has a quest. "Oh I might have something for you!" Me: Yes...? "Take a look". Same dialog -every- single time.

That it's optional is not a argument when the entire world is filled with things like this, for the people who are truly bothered by it there is simply no option to play the game and avoid it. It's a legitimate argument to say someone prefer a game that keeps much more focus on the actual plot over countless hours of exploring stuff that counts up to pretty much nothing.

If anything trying to tell people their personal taste is wrong is the real trolling in this thread.

 

So you're asking them to cut down on the "extra" content so that the game feels better for you.

 

What about the others than enjoy exploration? The side missions aren't targeted at you if you do not wish to experience them.

 

DAI was advertised as an open-world game with an emphasis on exploration. Players that want a linear game bought the game knowing what it was.

 

If you have to do a little bit of grunt work then that's what it is. Don't claim that you need to empty each zone to progress. You can end the game with a massive amount of power overflow.

[derek_1977]

I admit I am still in Hinterlands with 10 hours played, but so far the quests are meaningless. Loving the game still but the quests are just point a to b type stuff. Hope this improves like some have mentioned.

[StingingVelvet]

Re-read the post and the other replies I posted. I'm not going to repeat myself every time someone posts something.

 

You said it's an MMO when the only thing it has in common (writing-wise) with it is the fetch quest design, which isn't even unique to MMOs.

 

Feeling something is your prerogative. I can't tell you what to feel.

 

Just don't call it something it is not.

 

It's an offline MMO. MMO design is all over it. I don't even think that's an opinion, it's a fact. You can like it anyway. Hell you can love it. It still has MMO design though.

[Lebanese Dude]

It's an offline MMO. MMO design is all over it. I don't even think that's an opinion, it's a fact. You can like it anyway. Hell you can love it. It still has MMO design though.

 

What else does it share with MMOs, beyond the obvious RPG elements?

[Lebanese Dude]

1. It gives a reason for the abundance of low quality filler quests. It does not excuse them, nor does it remove them from the game or from the possibility of getting criticized. If your only argument is that the reason the fetch quest are there because of budget, then your argument is nonexistent because it does not remove or fix the problem of the huge number of tedious fetch quests.

 

2. Yep, the actual main storyline was about 20 hours at max. 55~ hours with as much optional content as possible done. About the same as DA:O (without expansions/DLC) and DA2 (with DLC). I also never said they claimed it was "substantial". I asked you to define what "substantially long" meant, whether it was relative to how much I played the game, or whether it was relative to how long other RPG's main quests are.

 

3. Can you please provide a source that all of these have a major impact on Inquisition? I didn't ask you to list major decisions which are being imported, I asked you to list which decisions from previous games have a very major impact on the world state or storyline of DAI.

 

a) At most this gave a different operation depending on who is the ruler. Not very major.

b ) I only got some minor dialogue related to them. Not very majorly impactful.

c) Provide proof that Redcliffe's fate majorly affects the world sate of DAI please? My import was saved redcliffe.

d) There was literally nothing in the game about this. Nothing major, at least.

e) Falls in the same category as Stroud/warden Alistair

f) The only difference it makes is whether or not Flemeth takes the old god soul from Kieran. This has not been shown to majorly affect DAI's worldstate or storyline as of yet.

g) My warden killed Flemeth yet it didn't majorly impact DAI.

h) How does Feynriel's fate majorly impact DAI's storyline or worldstate? Proof please.

i) How does this majorly affect the storyline or the DAI worldstate? What does it majorly change, except their dialogue?

j) How does this majorly affect the storyline or the DAI worldstate except a couple of dialogue changes?

k) How does this majorly affect the storyline or the DAI worldstate except a couple of dialogue changes?

 

4. Unfortunately they don't "drive exploration", they make the game feel tedious. There are no 'good quality fetch quests', they're of low quality because they're fetch quests. The problem people have is the overabundance of them. And yeah, I'm aware about all the budget and stuff. You already said that. And I'm saying, again, that it doesn't excuse the tedious fetch quests DAI likes to throw at you.

 

1 &4 ) So...where is your counterargument here? You keep telling me that my argument is weak without saying anything to counter it. You are discussing the quality of the optional side content, while conveniently dismissing everything else about the game.

The argument is that the side content is of "lower quality" compared to other plot quests because they are inherently "meaningless" quests to fill the world and drive exploration. I have already stated this. 
Read David Gaider's post about the word budget if you do not understand what it is and its significance, before dismissing it offhandedly.

 

2. 20 hours of pure main story content, an "average" of 25 or so hours for companions. A dozen more or so for minor story events. How is that amount not substantial? What are you asking for exactly? 

Also considering that DAO quests play almost exactly the same until the quest crisis points while DAIs are much more divergent, those 20 hours of content per unique playthrough can add up to quite a lot of content throughout several playthroughs.
 

3. So you want me to record the number of lines affected by the imports when it is rather obvious? Hawke's personality and Alistair's fate alone amount to hundreds of different lines of dialogue. Count them yourself if you wish exact metrics.

 

P.S. Thank you for at least engaging in civilized debate.

[Lebanese Dude]

1. My argument is that you have no actual argument to rely on, literally. Your point does not follow. I already explained why your argument is poor. I recognize that budget might be the reason for the poor implementation of the fetch quests. The budget is a reason for those fetch quests. It is not an excuse. Because your argument assumes this is the case, when it clearly isn't, that's why your argument is poor. That's my counter-argument, if you failed to see it in the previous 2 posts.

 

2. Nope.. The companion sidequests count as optional content, since they are not a mandatory part of the main storyline. The main storyline is still about 20 hours for me. "Minor story events" count if they are a part of the main storyline. Nothing you say will change the fact that it took me 20 hours to finish the main storyline, though. And no, I didn't play on casual, I played on hard. The storyline is just short.

 

3. Since you're the one making the claim that all of these things majorly impact either the main storyline of DAI or the worldstate of DAI, it's up to you to prove it. You are free to ignore the ones I already claimed do not majorly impact the game, as I made those decisions and saw no major content that majorly affected the storyline of DAI and the worldstate of DAI.

 

1. My argument is that the quality of the fetch quests was affected by the limited word budget. Is that not an argument towards the quality of the fetch quests? You're saying the word budget is irrelevant. That's quite misguided.

 

2. Well there's not much to say here. You're claiming that 20 hours of pure main story content is not enough. That's pretty weird, considering that the game is not marketed as a linear RPG. That's not what DAI is. Also are you seriously counting companion quests as minor content?

That would essentially reduce ME2 to four quests.

 

3. Statistically speaking, there are around 70 different events that affect DAI. Each one has up to 6 different choices in the keep. 

If major content changes 200 or so lines of dialogue while minor ones only change 5 or so, that's still around 1000 lines of dialogue unique to the world state. 

That's still a significant number of lines. You claiming otherwise is claiming that the Keep has an insignificant impact on DAI which is blatantly false.

 

Considering you've only played one playthrough, how would you actually know what has changed? You are using one experience as an example. Alistair is alive on my playthrough. What if he was dead? Who would be in his position then? So essentially we are both using conjecture, but at least I have some facts on my side as we KNOW that the keep has an impact on DAI. You are arguing otherwise.

[Lebanese Dude]

1. I'm not saying the budget is irrelevant. I'm saying that the circumstance behind the poor implementation of the various fetch quests is irrelevant when someone is criticizing those fetch quests because bringing it up is just a poor attempt at trying to alleviate the criticism. If they were forced to shoehorn these fetch quests because of a limited budget then it sucks for them and I'm sorry it had to happen. However, as someone who bought the game, I think I have every right to point out it's flaws, and say I didn't particularly enjoy the game because of said flaws, regardless of the source of those flaws.

2. No, I'm not claiming it's not enough. I'm simply claiming it's not very long, relative to the rest of the game. I never said anything about the way it was marketed, this point was simply about the length of it.

3. I'm not sure why you keep pushing your agenda while plain out ignoring or twisting what the other person said. I never said imports from the Keep have no consequence on DAI. I said that the total number of imported decisions that have a major impact on either the storyline of DAI or the world state of DAI is very small. This is true. Loghain/Alistair/Stroud are a major impact on DAI because they have an actual role relevant to the game's plotline. Who rules Orzammar is not relevant to the plotline or the worldstate in any major way. I wasn't kidding you when I told you I only got a minor operation relating to King Bhelen and that's it. I'm not sure if you would call that major. Continuing, the rest of the things on your list were either the things I imported (and noticed none of them had a major impact on DAI), or they possibly did change something in the game other than adding 10 different words in a codex entry, but it does not fundamentally change the story or the worldstate of DAI if you import that particular decision. Except Loghain/Alistar/Stroud, of course. But your claim was that the two previous games lead to a different worldstate each time you play the game, meaning that the worldstates of DAI with different imports must be fundamentally different, but that is not the case because a lot of the decisions you import through the Keep do not actually change a lot of things except for a few dialogue choices or different flavour text. Regardless of the majority of the decisions imported through the Keep, DAI is still fundamentally the same game even with imports.

1. But they aren't flaws. They serve a purpose, one you choose to ignore.
Had they not implemented those quests, the environments would be relatively empty. You have no reason to visit a zone beyond your own curiosity. You can still explore without doing the content. It's entirely optional.
You ask for meaningful quests when those already exist in the form of main, minor, and companion quests. The word budget does not allow it.

2. It's long enough considering it does not include conversations, companion quests, and zone story quests that you choose to ignore. DAI has never marketed itself as a linear RPG. If you have an issue then you're barking up the wrong tree.

3. Isn't that what debate is all about
You are proving my point with your post. Major decisions have a signifsnt impact amounting to hundreds of lines of dialogue changes, while minor ones involve a quest or two which are composed of only a few lines of dialogue. They all add about to a significant amount of dialogue changes. My point stands.

Anyway it's getting late here. I'm gonna jet. Take care.