The limitation of the interface or the scripts are not subjective. Maybe for a number of people the flaws aren't apparents or hampering them due to their playstyle, but it changes nothing about the interface itself being worse - if I tend to drive slowly, my car unable to goes over 120 isn't even noticeable, it's still slower than a car which can goes to 200.
lol wut
Nope, just pointing that shouting "it's subjective" is just meaningless and a way to relativise everything. Seems you're again on full strawman, fighting no the point made but the one you build up in its place so you can clamor you're the victor.
The limitation of the interface or the scripts are not subjective. Maybe for a number of people the flaws aren't apparents or hampering them due to their playstyle, but it changes nothing about the interface itself being worse - if I tend to drive slowly, my car unable to goes over 120 isn't even noticeable, it's still slower than a car which can goes to 200.
I think there is a flaw in your argument here. Most everything you both are speaking about is naturally subjective... Everyone will see things mostly different. Even two people who like the game may have totally different reasons for liking it.
Just because there is another car that goes 220, it doesn't mean my car, which might only be capable of going 120 is slow... It's all about perception.
So the interface being worse is at best your opinion and nothing more... even if you find someone who agrees. fact is only determined by the person evaluating it. Your right doesn't have to be my right, period... even if it was 100 of you and just 1 of me. My right is my right. Yours is yours.
All too often we want to define things for others, when the lens they see through is different then ours, which directly effects what is true or false for that person.
Obviously this goes both ways. If you feel the interface has taken a step back, then to you the interface has taken a step back... PERIOD.
(sorry for the lecture-ish posture of my post)
Kite him forever and have the infinitely resummonable spectral dog kill him.Isn't that fight considered the hardest thing in the world as a mage? I haven't seen a single person call that fight comically easy until now.
*sob* My poor mage Hawke...
I think there is a flaw in your argument here. Most everything you both are speaking about is naturally subjective... Everyone will see things mostly different. Even two people who like the game may have totally different reasons for liking it.
Just because there is another car that goes 220, it doesn't mean my car, which might only be capable of going 120 is slow... It's all about perception.
So the interface being worse is at best your opinion and nothing more... even if you find someone who agrees. fact is only determined by the person evaluating it. Your right doesn't have to be my right, period... even if it was 100 of you and just 1 of me. My right is my right. Yours is yours.
All too often we want to define things for others, when the lens they see through is different then ours, which directly effects what is true or false for that person.
Obviously this goes both ways. If you feel the interface has taken a step back, then to you the interface has taken a step back... PERIOD.
(sorry for the lecture-ish posture of my post)
No the flaw in his post is that he's trying to compare controls and UI interface to the freaking speed of two different cars.
Another extreme example?
Disable tactics for Shale. Problem solved
Nope, just pointing that shouting "it's subjective" is just meaningless and a way to relativise everything. Seems you're again on full strawman, fighting no the point made but the one you build up in its place so you can clamor you're the victor.
The limitation of the interface or the scripts are not subjective. Maybe for a number of people the flaws aren't apparents or hampering them due to their playstyle, but it changes nothing about the interface itself being worse - if I tend to drive slowly, my car unable to goes over 120 isn't even noticeable, it's still slower than a car which can goes to 200.
I don't think I ever mentioned that the limitations are subjective.
I already stated that by mere observation, it's rather obvious that the system is less complex than it used to be.
Now you come out and say that the game is worse for it. THAT is a subjective viewpoint, and your opinion does not equate fact.
The thing is, this is a company that still needs to be in business. This means that listening to consumer feedback is very important.
To that end, despite your opinions being subjective, BioWare still recognizes your complaints.
If a significant portion of the player-base shares this perspective, especially so soon after release, BioWare will most likely try to assuage the issues by directly addressing the problems to appease those who had issues.
An example?
KB&M controls are not entirely intuitive. Furthermore, players are unable to remap the mouse keys to emulate an intuitive keybinding structure.
The game is perfectly playable, but the controls are making a significant number of players uncomfortable. Others play the game just fine.
BioWare is currently looking into allowing more freedom in key mapping, but the game is perfectly playable and most players have adapted.
It's not too bad with a Force Mage. I wouldn't want to try it with other specs.Isn't that fight considered the hardest thing in the world as a mage? I haven't seen a single person call that fight comically easy until now.
*sob* My poor mage Hawke...
I
KB&M controls are not entirely intuitive. Furthermore, players are unable to remap the mouse keys to emulate an intuitive keybinding structure. .
Depends on how you've developed your intuitions, I think. Aren't the DAI controls pretty similar to a lot of MMOs?
Kinda similar, I guess.
You are right OP.
Bioware is damned if they do and damned if they don't.
So they should just keep making epic games like DAI for people who can appreciate a masterpiece with whatever few little flaws it may have.
I'm loving it myself.
The Tac Cam takes some getting used to, but I'm already used to it because I spent years playing the Total War games.Depends on how you've developed your intuitions, I think. Aren't the DAI controls pretty similar to a lot of MMOs?
The Tac Cam takes some getting used to, but I'm already used to it because I spent years playing the Total War games.
It's a good camera for surveying the battlefield and giving orders. Probably the best BioWare has done. But it seems that this isn't a common playstyle here. Previous BioWare games mostly let you jump from character to character, piecing together a picture of the battlefield from combining those perspectives. Remember, even DAO's iso cam didn't zoom out far enough to see the whole battlefield. As such, most players who prefer point&click pausable tactical combat are used to a camera that more closely resembles Inquisition's Action Cam rather than its Tac Cam.
So they want a combination of the Action Cam and the Tac Cam, which is what DAO and DA2 offered. Inquisition segregates those playstyles, which was always going to annoy some people because we don't all draw the line in the same place.
Didn't the DA:O tactical camera use the mouse to pan the field? Why change from that scheme?
Because it couldn't tilt. Tilting is good. It lets you see farther. How do you move with the mouse and mouselook with the mouse?Didn't the DA:O tactical camera use the mouse to pan the field? Why change from that scheme?
Remember, even DAO's iso cam didn't zoom out far enough to see the whole battlefield.
That was my biggest complaint with Origins' tactical camera. It felt like it barely went anywhere. This one has the opposite problem: it goes really far but I can't zoom out as far so I can't get a full picture of my immediate surroundings without moving around a lot.
Because it couldn't tilt. Tilting is good. It lets you see farther. How do you move with the mouse and mouselook with the mouse?
Also, DAO's camera required that every indoor area have a removable ceiling. That's a hell of a lot of extra level design work.
Now that I think about it, I can imagine ways to make it work, but they're no more elegant than what we have now.
Come on, it didn't tilt... so you implement a tilt. lol
Moving the camera around with the mouse was very easy and smooth, and was pretty intuitive since most other games used the same method (I'm thinking most RTS that I've played come to mind).
The 'tactical' cam gives you a worse view of what's going on than the regular view does, but unfortunately all of the tactical functionality is locked away within it for no reason whatsoever.
This is the sort of view tac cam needs to give you.
This is the sort of view tac cam does give you.
And God help you if your enemies are on higher ground than you.
Having said that, I very much agree that people hold onto older games way too much, and it makes me wonder how much of that is a product of nostalgia.
It is absolutely nostalgia. "The good old days" syndrome is everywhere: sports (back in the day, guys played with broken limbs and got their bell rung all the time); music (all a bunch of one-hit wonders nowadays); movies (it's all special effects these days); gas (my DeSoto burned 3 gallons per mile and it only cost 3 bucks; boy did it make a sweet sound); school ( I had to walk 8 miles to and back; snow, sleet, rain, you name it! )
BUT!
Sports: look at all the old guys who can't walk, have arthritis, suffer from dementia/alzheimer, shoot themselves from PCS.
Music: we all know Elvis, Dion and the Belmonts, Patsy Cline. Look at all the no-names in Dick Clark's collection.
Movies: they had 2-3 big releases per year;
Gas: do we really need to cover how our reliance on oil is not good? Nothing more pleasant than an a**hole with a cherrybomb muffler when enjoying a cold one outside.
School: oh yeah, would have loved to have my fingers whipped with a ruler because I'm a lefty (the devil's hand).
I bought some PS1 classics on my PS3 , and man some of them were just... gahhhh. I have nostalgia for some games (Baseball Star, Tecmo Super Bowl, TMNT I&II, NHL 94, Super Mario, Mike Tyson's Punchout, original FF, Legend of Zelda). Sure, they're fun for a laugh for 30 minutes, but hey, the world moves on.
No sure if this should be here but I really do not get people's obession with living in the past...
All the complaints are because people are saying how great BG and DAO are and how all the new games are "DAI is NOT DAO", "BG2 has much better content than DAI", "DA2 sucks soooo much compared to DAO".
BG1/BG2/DAO: perhaps they should just keep making remakes/graphical overhual of them and spend less time thinking of new ideas since people would compare and not like it. And remakes/remastered are excellent money-grabbers nowadays (both GTA V and Last of Us Remastered are selling very well). And surprise surprise, gamers are giving great reviews on them.
they somehow failed to see that new ideas are progressive. I think most people would want to see the new elements being introduced instead of having the same old thing again and again. I am pretty sure if the game mechanics remained the same throughout, people would say Bioware staff are not progressive and have run out of ideas blah blah blah.
Here is how I see it:
DAO: main complaint was the combat as it is not fast enough and offer little 'excitement'
DA2: they upgrade the combat system and make it faster and more flashy
DA2: lack of quests, lack of areas, repetitive areas, poor story (too linear and your choice does not matter), droves of enemies falling from the sky
DAI: full of quests (even though they are sidequests), areas too large to be explored, non-repetitive areas, a definite improvement in story-telling and cinematics, NO MORE enemies falling from the sky
but now we have:
DAI: awful controls and fps, SLOW! it plays like a MMO! the story is too 'over-the place' because of the boring neverending fetch quests
Haiz...
People are just never satisfied even though Bioware did try to take in the comments and try to improve.
I expect DA4 will be without any fetch quests, mostly linear, turned-based combat (to prevent awful tactical cam controls) and plays exactly like a JRPG. But expect complaints on those as well.
if you are sooooooooooooooooo good, please make a game and make sure it is a hit even after 20 years (much like BG and DAO).
if not, just stay in the past and be content with DAO and played it till the end of time because DAO is never coming back (though I wouldn't mind a remake).
dont know who are these people complainign that DAO's action was too slow, maybe console gamers? Certainly not PC players for the most part we all loved it. DA2 went too far in the other direction basically screwing over all the PC gamers and took something that was deep and complicated and made it worse, much worse and then DAI comes along that tries to make peace between the two camps but devliers combat that seems promising two both camps but once again they leave out massive features once again to either make consoles happy or they were just lazy. EG: No queing in the tactics window, the lack of actual tactics, there is no way to swap weapons in an RPG(?) etc etc
The things that DAI are pretty massive and yes while the story and setting is amazing, with such a woeful conceived UI. Funny you know who complains of fetch quests... console players. Most RPG players who grew up with Baldurs Gate would never complain about fetch quests. Who was directly responsible for making this complicated game oversimple, console gamers. you know who made this UI so huge and ugly and counter-intuitive, console gamers. Yet even as a console gamer myself, I find these simplications dire.
I try and like this game but spending more time fighting with the UI than I do mobs. The game feels amazing and the world but the UI is woeful it makes me not want to play the game... yet in DAO, you know what make me want to play the 100 odd hours, the UI. It suited and matched the game I was playing.
Don't speak for all PC players. I hated DAO combat. it was too freaking slow. I've also heard the same complaint from other PC gamers. The combat in DA2 and DAI is better. But the UI is shyt.
Guest_Lathrim_*
Don't speak for all PC players. I hated DAO combat. it was too freaking slow. I've also heard the same complaint from other PC gamers. The combat in DA2 and DAI is better. But the UI is shyt.
Agreed.
This tac cam doesn't give me an overview of what is going on. It's actually easier to figure that out in the action cam mode.
Most RPG players who grew up with Baldurs Gate would never complain about fetch quests. .
Why wouldn't they?
It is absolutely nostalgia.
Bullshit. There are quite a few older games that I played well over a decade after they were released and absolutely loved. I still play new Neverwinter Nights modules. One can't feel nostalgia for games one played for the first time less than half a year ago.
A quick side question:
Is there some way to disable switching of the camera mode by scrolling?
Don't speak for all PC players. I hated DAO combat. it was too freaking slow. I've also heard the same complaint from other PC gamers. The combat in DA2 and DAI is better. But the UI is shyt.
but were you actually a fan of Baldurs Gate/Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights and other such games on which Dragon Age is based? Because in terms of all its peers it was faster.
dont know who are these people complainign that DAO's action was too slow, maybe console gamers? Certainly not PC players for the most part we all loved it. DA2 went too far in the other direction basically screwing over all the PC gamers and took something that was deep and complicated and made it worse, much worse and then DAI comes along that tries to make peace between the two camps but devliers combat that seems promising two both camps but once again they leave out massive features once again to either make consoles happy or they were just lazy. EG: No queing in the tactics window, the lack of actual tactics, there is no way to swap weapons in an RPG(?) etc etc
The things that DAI are pretty massive and yes while the story and setting is amazing, with such a woeful conceived UI. Funny you know who complains of fetch quests... console players. Most RPG players who grew up with Baldurs Gate would never complain about fetch quests. Who was directly responsible for making this complicated game oversimple, console gamers. you know who made this UI so huge and ugly and counter-intuitive, console gamers. Yet even as a console gamer myself, I find these simplications dire.
I try and like this game but spending more time fighting with the UI than I do mobs. The game feels amazing and the world but the UI is woeful it makes me not want to play the game... yet in DAO, you know what make me want to play the 100 odd hours, the UI. It suited and matched the game I was playing.
That is so not true. Origins and 2 had the same depth in tactics; the only difference were the abilities, where because of the lack of inputs of a controller, we had a radial menu to compensate. It was stripped for us, and PC got shrunk to 8 abilities too.
I'm so tired of hearing all these arguments, that can easily be shot down one by one. You know what game that had tons of fetch quest, huge worlds, created for console originally? Final Fantasy. And last time I checked, it sold pretty well until it started going downhill... And I could be wrong ( I do not know enough to swear by it), but the first game (or meaningful in sales) on console to bring tactics to that medium was FFXII.
This tac cam doesn't give me an overview of what is going on. It's actually easier to figure that out in the action cam mode.
Why wouldn't they?
Bullshit. There are quite a few older games that I played well over a decade after they were released and absolutely loved. I still play new Neverwinter Nights modules. One can't feel nostalgia for games one played for the first time less than half a year ago.
A quick side question:
Is there some way to disable switching of the camera mode by scrolling?
because RPG games are always about the journey not the destination. Some of the greatest moments in things like Baldurs Gate (etc) is discovering quests by talking to town folk and exploring, they often exploring more about the land and lore than the main quest does. Likewise in DAI I have learned more from the sidequests than I have done from the main quest.
Yes of course there will always be a subset who want to rush through and complain about the absence of quality, yet always missing the fact the quality is in the deep. (the same can also be said playing pen and pencil).
Think through the details, though. If we move the camera with the mouse...Come on, it didn't tilt... so you implement a tilt. lol
Moving the camera around with the mouse was very easy and smooth, and was pretty intuitive since most other games used the same method (I'm thinking most RTS that I've played come to mind).
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