63 réponses à ce sujet

[Emonthepm]

What's Solas' game?

 

Flemeth takes Urthemiel's soul, then Solas takes Flemeth's, which would mean he is the Dread Wolf + Mythal + ( optional ) Urthemiel.

 

That's pretty damn strong. He also says THE PEOPLE need him.

 

Could he go on a crusade to restore the Dalish back to their old strength?

 

And why did he give the orb to Corypheus? What was the point? I get that he couldn't use it himself, but why Corypheus, who used it to open a giant ass rift and bring in demons?

 

I doubt Solas wanted a Thedas filled with demons, did he?

 

 

[Aren]

What's Solas' game?

 

Flemeth takes Urthemiel's soul, then Solas takes Flemeth's, which would mean he is the Dread Wolf + Mythal + ( optional ) Urthemiel.

 

That's pretty damn strong. He also says THE PEOPLE need him.

 

Could he go on a crusade to restore the Dalish back to their old strength?

 

And why did he give the orb to Corypheus? What was the point? I get that he couldn't use it himself, but why Corypheus, who used it to open a giant ass rift and bring in demons?

 

I doubt Solas wanted a Thedas filled with demons, did he?

Again everyone make the same mistake, Urthemiel essence is not the soul, the old gods are dead even the dragon of night Lusacan and the one of mistery Razikale are dead, the only remains is the essence power, for this reason they cannot wake-up from their sleep because they are already dead, even Mythal.

Two souls cannot coexist in the same body and become the same being  see  (Anders/Justice).

The dread wolf absorb somthing from Flemeth, you can create a world state without the child Kieran so in the end i belive that the developer find a way to connect the two different outcome from origins, the OGB is no more the OGB so in the end they try to create a unique ending for future games.

The dread wolf have somthing to do with the other elves being that now are somwhere into the Heavens i belive trapped into an Eluvian,  i dont know way but it seems that Mythal and the Dread wolf are the only two really free into the mortal world.

The nature of the Dread wolf is controversial i do not belive that he is evil, and as Gaider said this beings are not Creator so they are not god, just powerful being.

Flemeth however speak about betrayal of someone, but who?  The dread wolf is a Liar but in many history related to him he never betray someone,  i dont know the corruption of the black city and the golden city and the relation between the old gods the heaven gods to the maker is still unresolved, and no  The dread wolf is not the Maker because the elven gods are not creators.

spirit and demons  have nothing to do with the elven gods.

However there is the matter of Andraste someone grant to her power like Mythal to Flemeth, is possible that the Dread wolf grant his power to Andraste to help his people against the Imperium, while the old gods helped the Imperium   (corypheus---------->DUmat        architect---------->unknown   and other 5 magister/somniari), i belive that the Dread wolf want to free his people from the elven gods influence.

[Br3admax]

Again everyone make the same mistake, Urthemiel essence is not the soul, the old gods are dead even the dragon of night Lusacan and the one of mistery Razikale are dead, the only remains is the essence power, for this reason they cannot wake-up from their sleep because they are already dead, even Mythal.

Two souls cannot coexist in the same body and become the same being  see  (Anders/Justice).

The dread wolf absorb somthing from Flemeth, you can create a world state without the child Kieran so in the end i belive that the developer find a way to connect the two different outcome from origins, the OGB is no more the OGB so in the end they try to create a unique ending for future games.

The dread wolf have somthing to do with the other elves being that now are somwhere into the Heavens i belive trapped into an Eluvian,  i dont know way but it seems that Mythal and the Dread wolf are the only two really free into the mortal world.

The nature of the Dread wolf is controversial i do not belive that he is evil, and as Gaider said this being are not Creator so they are not god, just powerful being.

Um, what? Pretty much none of this makes sense at all, two souls can definitely exist in the same body, and even the ancient Tevinter did not believe the Old Gods created them. 

 

 

As to the OP, pretty sure Flemeth released Urthemiel. Solas probably doesn't get his soul. 

[LaBeteFeroce]

I think new revelations in Dragon Age: Inquisition clear up a lot of the lore. And I think Solas is going after the Maker.

It seems that originally there were the creator gods (the Elven Pantheon), and the Old Gods (the Forgotten Ones). The Creator gods had dominion over the Fade, while the Old Gods had the physical realm. If this is true, it means that the Elven All-Father, Elgar'nan, is the figure now associated with the Maker, while Mythal, aka Flemeth, was his bride. We know that the Creators and the Old Gods were at war with one another, and we know that Elgar'nan was a wrathful god, per his name "the god of vengeance" and the story of him throwing the sun down from the sky (which I believe is a possible allusion to the creation of the Darkspawn Taint).

Here's what I think happened, long ago. At some point, for some reason, Elgar'Nan (The Maker) created the Darkspawn Taint as a weapon against the Old Gods. The fact that it targets them proves that it's designed against them. We know that the Taint is ancient, far moreso than the Darkspawn, because Red Lyrium is Lyrium corrupted by the Darkspawn Taint, and its presence in the Primordial Thaig shows that it predated the First Blight by a long, long time. However, in creating the Darkspawn Taint, Elgar'Nan was himself corrupted by it. Knowing the dangers of what would happen if the Darkspawn Taint reached Thedas and turned the Old Gods into Archdemons, I believe Fen'Harel took action, duping the Old Gods into imprisonment for their own safety, and sealing Elgar'Nan and most of the rest of the creators in the Golden City (turning it into the Black City, and making it a prison for the gods).

This explains several things:
1. Why the city was already blackened when the Magisters set foot in it
2. Why the Elven Pantheon seemingly abandoned the Elves, leading them to flee Arlathan
3. Why the Maker is absent
4. Why the Tevinter statue in the Mage Origin from the first game drops the hint that the Black City is a prison

In effect, Fen'Harel saved the world by this act. Mythal was not imprisoned and remained afoot in Thedas, seeing the wisdom in it. Fast forward a ways, and the imprisoned Old God Dumat makes contact with the Tevinter Imperium from his prison. He teaches them Blood Magic, and believing Elgar'Nan still responsible for his imprisonment, advises the Magisters to assault the Gold City (Black City) to exact his revenge against Elgar'Nan. However, as Corypheus says, they arrived to find the city blackened and corrupted, and became the first Darkspawn. They brought the Darkspawn Taint back to Thedas, thereby unleashing the weapon that is the Taint and corrupting Dumat into an Archdemon. And so began the first Blight.

What Fen'Harel had hoped to prevent by imprisoning everyone had happened anyway, thanks to the Tevinter Imperium. So after the first Blight had ended, it would make sense that Fen'Harel and Mythal would seek to remove the threat that Tevinter posed. Enter Andraste. I believe Flemeth/Mythal was Andraste. It fits perfectly. Perhaps Andraste was a real person and Mythal possessed her at some point in her campaign, but regardless, Andraste's claim to be being the "Bride of the Maker" is now ironically correct, when you realize that Mythal is the bride of Elgar'Nan. Andraste's campaign against Tevinter significantly weakened Tevinter, as well as eradicated their worship of the Old Gods. Problem solved, for the time being.

Ever since them, the Blight has come and gone and Archdemons have risen and fallen, slain by the Grey Wardens. Mythal/Flemeth appears to have spent her time consolidating power (arranging to take Urthemial's soul, for instance). I believe Mythal and Fen'Harel's end-game is to consolidate enough power to enter into the Black City, confront the corrupt Elgar'Nan (The Maker), and purify or destroy him for good, thereby forevermore ending the threat of the Blight.

[Aren]

they can coexist only for abominations,  Solas say somthing about the old gods that they are already dead all the 7 old gods

he is a liar of course the dread wolf heritage, but i belive that  Kieran is only a piece as Flemeth said of Urthemiel, he have no memory no knowledge of the beauty god.

[Aren]

I think new revelations in Dragon Age: Inquisition clear up a lot of the lore. And I think Solas is going after the Maker.

It seems that originally there were the creator gods (the Elven Pantheon), and the Old Gods (the Forgotten Ones). The Creator gods had dominion over the Fade, while the Old Gods had the physical realm. If this is true, it means that the Elven All-Father, Elgar'nan, is the figure now associated with the Maker, while Mythal, aka Flemeth, was his bride. We know that the Creators and the Old Gods were at war with one another, and we know that Elgar'nan was a wrathful god, per his name "the god of vengeance" and the story of him throwing the sun down from the sky (which I believe is a possible allusion to the creation of the Darkspawn Taint).

Here's what I think happened, long ago. At some point, for some reason, Elgar'Nan (The Maker) created the Darkspawn Taint as a weapon against the Old Gods. The fact that it targets them proves that it's designed against them. We know that the Taint is ancient, far moreso than the Darkspawn, because Red Lyrium is Lyrium corrupted by the Darkspawn Taint, and its presence in the Primordial Thaig shows that it predated the First Blight by a long, long time. However, in creating the Darkspawn Taint, Elgar'Nan was himself corrupted by it. Knowing the dangers of what would happen if the Darkspawn Taint reached Thedas and turned the Old Gods into Archdemons, I believe Fen'Harel took action, duping the Old Gods into imprisonment for their own safety, and sealing Elgar'Nan and most of the rest of the creators in the Golden City (turning it into the Black City, and making it a prison for the gods).

This explains several things:
1. Why the city was already blackened when the Magisters set foot in it
2. Why the Elven Pantheon seemingly abandoned the Elves, leading them to flee Arlathan
3. Why the Maker is absent
4. Why the Tevinter statue in the Mage Origin from the first game drops the hint that the Black City is a prison

In effect, Fen'Harel saved the world by this act. Mythal was not imprisoned and remained afoot in Thedas, seeing the wisdom in it. Fast forward a ways, and the imprisoned Old God Dumat makes contact with the Tevinter Imperium from his prison. He teaches them Blood Magic, and believing Elgar'Nan still responsible for his imprisonment, advises the Magisters to assault the Gold City (Black City) to exact his revenge against Elgar'Nan. However, as Corypheus says, they arrived to find the city blackened and corrupted, and became the first Darkspawn. They brought the Darkspawn Taint back to Thedas, thereby unleashing the weapon that is the Taint and corrupting Dumat into an Archdemon. And so began the first Blight.

What Fen'Harel had hoped to prevent by imprisoning everyone had happened anyway, thanks to the Tevinter Imperium. So after the first Blight had ended, it would make sense that Fen'Harel and Mythal would seek to remove the threat that Tevinter posed. Enter Andraste. I believe Flemeth/Mythal was Andraste. It fits perfectly. Perhaps Andraste was a real person and Mythal possessed her at some point in her campaign, but regardless, Andraste's claim to be being the "Bride of the Maker" is now ironically correct, when you realize that Mythal is the bride of Elgar'Nan. Andraste's campaign against Tevinter significantly weakened Tevinter, as well as eradicated their worship of the Old Gods. Problem solved, for the time being.

Ever since them, the Blight has come and gone and Archdemons have risen and fallen, slain by the Grey Wardens. Mythal/Flemeth appears to have spent her time consolidating power (arranging to take Urthemial's soul, for instance). I believe Mythal and Fen'Harel's end-game is to consolidate enough power to enter into the Black City, confront the corrupt Elgar'Nan (The Maker), and purify or destroy him for good, thereby forevermore ending the threat of the Blight.

the maker is absent for other reasons i belive that the developer cannot use the Maker as a   being in game for obvious reason of fate, if they show the true identity of the maker then the fate of the chantry woul be usless.

The forgotten ones and the creators are not Gods because they do not create anything.

They are gods only for the elves b ut for human, qunari and dwarf they are nothing.

[Br3admax]

they can coexist only for abominations,  Solas say somthing about the old gods that they are already dead all the 7 old gods

he is a liar of course the dread wolf heritage, but i belive that  Kieran is only a piece as Flemeth said of Urthemiel, he have no memory no knowledge of the beauty god.

Um, no. That's not how it's said to work at all. 

[Mr.House]

The elves didn't flee Arlathan, they destroyed it.

[Meraxes]

the maker is absent for other reasons i belive that the developer cannot use the Maker as a   being in game for obvious reason of fate, if they show the true identity of the maker then the fate of the chantry woul be usless.

The forgotten ones and the creators are not Gods because they do not create anything.

They are gods only for the elves b ut for human, qunari and dwarf they are nothing.

I don't understand what you're trying to say? They're not gods but they're gods for the elves? What???

[blahblahblah]

The elves didn't flee Arlathan, they destroyed it.

How?

[Former_Fiend]

See, I didn't interpret that as Solas taking Flemeth's soul/essense/whatever. 

 

I interpreted that scene as Flemeth killing Solas by possessing him and Solas committing suicide by willfully possessing him. Maybe not killing, really, but Flemeth/Mythal taking over Solas/Fen'haral. 

[Former_Fiend]

How?

 

They waged war upon themselves. Tevinter did little more than pick the bones clean.

 

Least that's the way one of the ancient elves described it.

[blahblahblah]

They waged war upon themselves. Tevinter did little more than pick the bones clean.

 

Least that's the way one of the ancient elves described it.

So the ancient elves are ones who taught Tevinter blood magic and their magocracy and not  the Old Gods.

[Meraxes]

They waged war upon themselves. Tevinter did little more than pick the bones clean.

 

Least that's the way one of the ancient elves described it.

Would explain how Tevinter was able to defeat them.

 

After learning everything about how hardcore ancient elven magic was I did wonder how they possibly could have lost.

[Mr.House]

How?

It's revealed at the Temple of Mythal.

[Emonthepm]

I think new revelations in Dragon Age: Inquisition clear up a lot of the lore. And I think Solas is going after the Maker.

It seems that originally there were the creator gods (the Elven Pantheon), and the Old Gods (the Forgotten Ones). The Creator gods had dominion over the Fade, while the Old Gods had the physical realm. If this is true, it means that the Elven All-Father, Elgar'nan, is the figure now associated with the Maker, while Mythal, aka Flemeth, was his bride. We know that the Creators and the Old Gods were at war with one another, and we know that Elgar'nan was a wrathful god, per his name "the god of vengeance" and the story of him throwing the sun down from the sky (which I believe is a possible allusion to the creation of the Darkspawn Taint).

Here's what I think happened, long ago. At some point, for some reason, Elgar'Nan (The Maker) created the Darkspawn Taint as a weapon against the Old Gods. The fact that it targets them proves that it's designed against them. We know that the Taint is ancient, far moreso than the Darkspawn, because Red Lyrium is Lyrium corrupted by the Darkspawn Taint, and its presence in the Primordial Thaig shows that it predated the First Blight by a long, long time. However, in creating the Darkspawn Taint, Elgar'Nan was himself corrupted by it. Knowing the dangers of what would happen if the Darkspawn Taint reached Thedas and turned the Old Gods into Archdemons, I believe Fen'Harel took action, duping the Old Gods into imprisonment for their own safety, and sealing Elgar'Nan and most of the rest of the creators in the Golden City (turning it into the Black City, and making it a prison for the gods).

This explains several things:
1. Why the city was already blackened when the Magisters set foot in it
2. Why the Elven Pantheon seemingly abandoned the Elves, leading them to flee Arlathan
3. Why the Maker is absent
4. Why the Tevinter statue in the Mage Origin from the first game drops the hint that the Black City is a prison

In effect, Fen'Harel saved the world by this act. Mythal was not imprisoned and remained afoot in Thedas, seeing the wisdom in it. Fast forward a ways, and the imprisoned Old God Dumat makes contact with the Tevinter Imperium from his prison. He teaches them Blood Magic, and believing Elgar'Nan still responsible for his imprisonment, advises the Magisters to assault the Gold City (Black City) to exact his revenge against Elgar'Nan. However, as Corypheus says, they arrived to find the city blackened and corrupted, and became the first Darkspawn. They brought the Darkspawn Taint back to Thedas, thereby unleashing the weapon that is the Taint and corrupting Dumat into an Archdemon. And so began the first Blight.

What Fen'Harel had hoped to prevent by imprisoning everyone had happened anyway, thanks to the Tevinter Imperium. So after the first Blight had ended, it would make sense that Fen'Harel and Mythal would seek to remove the threat that Tevinter posed. Enter Andraste. I believe Flemeth/Mythal was Andraste. It fits perfectly. Perhaps Andraste was a real person and Mythal possessed her at some point in her campaign, but regardless, Andraste's claim to be being the "Bride of the Maker" is now ironically correct, when you realize that Mythal is the bride of Elgar'Nan. Andraste's campaign against Tevinter significantly weakened Tevinter, as well as eradicated their worship of the Old Gods. Problem solved, for the time being.

Ever since them, the Blight has come and gone and Archdemons have risen and fallen, slain by the Grey Wardens. Mythal/Flemeth appears to have spent her time consolidating power (arranging to take Urthemial's soul, for instance). I believe Mythal and Fen'Harel's end-game is to consolidate enough power to enter into the Black City, confront the corrupt Elgar'Nan (The Maker), and purify or destroy him for good, thereby forevermore ending the threat of the Blight.

 

That sounds great and makes sense.

[Emonthepm]

See, I didn't interpret that as Solas taking Flemeth's soul/essense/whatever. 

 

I interpreted that scene as Flemeth killing Solas by possessing him and Solas committing suicide by willfully possessing him. Maybe not killing, really, but Flemeth/Mythal taking over Solas/Fen'haral. 

 

Solas said the people need him, then zap zap and Flemeth is down.

 

i think the original plan was for Flemeth to take his power, but since the elves need Solas more they switched roles.

[Former_Fiend]

Solas said the people need him, then zap zap and Flemeth is down.

 

i think the original plan was for Flemeth to take his power, but since the elves need Solas more they switched roles.

 

Flemeth going down doesn't necessarily prove anything, though; Flemeth body-surfs. That's what she does.

 

That being said, watching it again it does appear that Solas is the one to initiate whatever transfer happens, but I'm still leaning towards Flemeth being the one who took over Solas, not the other way around.

[Meraxes]

Flemeth going down doesn't necessarily prove anything, though; Flemeth body-surfs. That's what she does.

 

That being said, watching it again it does appear that Solas is the one to initiate whatever transfer happens, but I'm still leaning towards Flemeth being the one who took over Solas, not the other way around.

 

"I should pay the price" to me indicates that they somehow have discussed the possesion thing previously. I don't think anyone took the other by surprise in this situation, they have probably planned on getting 'merged' for quite some time. And Fen'Harel seems to think him being 'in charge' (whatever that means in this situation) would be most beneficial to the people. I don't see this convo making sense if it wasn't Fen'Harel taking over.

[Former_Fiend]

"I should pay the price" to me indicates that they somehow have discussed the possesion thing previously. I don't think anyone took the other by surprise in this situation, they have probably planned on getting 'merged' for quite some time. And Fen'Harel seems to think him being 'in charge' (whatever that means in this situation) would be most beneficial to the people. I don't see this convo making sense if it wasn't Fen'Harel taking over.

 

I agree that it wasn't "by surprise", given Flemeth's statement to Morrigan that her method of possession requires a willing host.

 

I had considered the possibility that it was less a take-over and more a merger. Flemeth had, at this point(in my game, at least), already taken the essence of Urthemiel into herself; it seems possible that what resulted from this particular transfer isn't Mythal or Fen'Harel but an amalgamation of them with bits of Urthemiel thrown in the mix, depending on the world state. 

 

Never the less, I'm not betting money against Flemeth in this situation.

[Mims]

I wouldn't bet against Flemeth either. I also don't believe her when she says that she needs someone to be willing for her to possess them. There's no reason she would admit to it if her plans involved eventually body-stealing Morrigan at some point. Or anyone else for that matter.

 

I don't think we'll know what happened until a DLC or the next game. But I doubt that we will be losing Flemeth or Solas. 

 

If Flemeth is dead/possessed, then she'll just revive herself somewhere else with one of her backup spells.

If Solas is dead/possessed, we'll probably excise her. 

If they are working together, they'll eventually split apart again. 

[Meraxes]

What I don't get is this, how much of Flemeth is Mythal? 

 

When you're in the fade with Morrigan Flemeth seems a bit detached from Mythal. Mythal is clearly the reason she can do all those things she can do, but she still seems to have the mind the woman she was before the Mythal merge. Her refering to Mythal as something like a heart makes me think she's more a source of Flemeth's power and wisdom than anything else.

 

I also wonder whether the wisp of Mythal included the full extent of her powers. If it was only a small part of it Mythal must have been incredibly powerful.

 

I was a bit disoriented from towards the end so these things might have been answered.

[Syndra]

If Flemeth is dead/possessed, then she'll just revive herself somewhere else with one of her backup spells.

 

This. Notice how the dialogue starts with "I knew you would come". She is definitely prepared.

[Sylvanfeather]

I'm starting to believe that Flemeth has worked in the best interests of our heroes/Thedas from the beginning. All negative perceptions seem to stem from Morrigan. While Flemeth's actions show her as helping, first the Wardens, then Hawke. And I do believe her when she said a host needs to be willing for possession. I also see her not so much as taking Urthemiel's soul for herself, but taking it away from Morrigan.

 

Now as to that final scene, for myself I'm going to keep believing that there really was a price to be paid for losing the orb. Due to the magical bond of being responsible for the orb or whether they had to answer to a higher power. It was the Dread Wolf's so he was meant to pay for losing it, except "the people need him", which left it to Flemeth. And she sacrificed herself for her friend.

 

Possession and trading faces doesn't really feel like a price has been paid couldn't that soul then be shared off again to another host in the future? I really think Flemeth/Mythal is gone. At best, the Dread Wolf might have some of her power, at worst, someone else claimed Mythal in payment.

[Former_Fiend]

What I don't get is this, how much of Flemeth is Mythal? 

 

When you're in the fade with Morrigan Flemeth seems a bit detached from Mythal. Mythal is clearly the reason she can do all those things she can do, but she still seems to have the mind the woman she was before the Mythal merge. Her refering to Mythal as something like a heart makes me think she's more a source of Flemeth's power and wisdom than anything else.

 

I also wonder whether the wisp of Mythal included the full extent of her powers. If it was only a small part of it Mythal must have been incredibly powerful.

 

I was a bit disoriented from towards the end so these things might have been answered.

 

I don't know that we can make any quantifiable judgments regarding that. We've never met the woman Flemeth was before the merger so we can't say how much or how little she's changed. Even if we had, we wouldn't be able to see how much of that change is Mythal and how much is just living for seven hundred years. 

 

The likening Mythal to her heart could imply that Mythal is nothing more than the source of her power, or it could be another way of saying that she's connected to her in a way that makes them inseparable; take the heart out of her chest and she dies. To me it implies that Mythal is simply part of her - a distinct, specific part, but part of her. Not a foreign inhabitant in her, but one with her flesh and blood.

 

That said, Flemeth certainly doesn't think of herself as Mythal. Whether she thinks of herself as Flemeth - which is to say, the woman she was before the merger - or as a wholely new entity born of the merger, that's a murkier situation. But she does appear to think of Mythal the individual as a separate entity, and one in the past tense.