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How DAI is KOTORII, and how Bioware failed again.


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#1
YTMND

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*Spoilers* 

** I should rid of the 'again' of the title as KOTOR II is not developed by Bioware.**

 

'Failed' might be a strong word. So before anybody rages over my slightly negative review, I must say that I actually semi-enjoyed DAI. Not enjoying it wouldn't have allowed me to play it for whopping 70 hours.

 

I LOVED the characters (both the companions and the advisers). Their story gave multiple angles and quite a good twist for me to keep wanting more. I actually enjoyed the combat mechanisms. Although I prefer the old school RPG fighting screens (such that of Baldurs gate, or one used in DAO) the hybrid of this real-time-tactical fighting style seems to be the right choice for the game to be more 'acceptable' for the new era of gaming community. It worked in KOTOR and mass effect, and It does here as well.

 

I also loved the vast world they have created. They've managed to make the pacing of the semi-open-world-elements quite well. Just as you think the developers ran out of ideas, you find new caves, new missions, new story arch, just enough to get you sayin 'yes I want to save this town. I will do this quest.'. I also liked how much my actions actually affected the world. You could see the change the terrain. Your operations will open up new areas, and NPCs will act accordingly to your actions. 

 

What I greatly appreciate are the 'little bits'. The tarot companion cards changing in design when you activate certain aspects of the game were a nice touch. Easter eggs were cute. The application of 'the keep' was a fine way to tune the DAI inquisition story relevant to your previous play-through. And the Grand scale customization available in this game is just staggering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

SADLY, DAI developers succeeded in everything except for one, which is the MAIN STORY. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against 'fighting the BIG BAD'. Unlike most of the complaints, I actually had *NO problem* with Corypheus. He caused the first Blight! He has a dragon! He wants to become a GOD! what's not to like?   In fact,  Bioware built up their reputation over this very story arch. KOTOR, Mass effect, DAO and Baldurs gate were all great games. They knew how to make this very simple, 1000 year old formula  ( I'm  looking at you Norse mythologies ) interesting. You knew that the world was at stake. You had to bring together the divided factions, make tough choices, discover forgotten technology, and in the end, with all odds at stake, you return victorious. ( and Yes I chose the Destruction path in Mass Effect 3 with maxed out Military strength, cause that's how Bioware stories should be. *grumph*)

 

 

The problem here, however, is that DAI fails to make the story as fulfilling as it's successful counterparts. During my play-through, I couldn't understand why. Cause I enjoyed much part of the story until Haven's destruction. As corny as it sounds, I had chills when they were singing hymns in the midst of failure. But as soon as I saw Flemeth's face, I knew,  I just knew that this was KOTOR II all over again, and when I saw the post-epilogue with Solas, I was certain, that DAI was KOTOR II , and Bioware failed the same story again.

 

 

Lemme explain, KOTOR I is arguably one of the most beloved RPGs in the 00's. Story is simple : Big bad destroying the galaxy. You're a talented Jedi with *SPOILERS* amnesia, and you gotta unite the galaxy and gather relics to destroy the big bad. Simple.

 

The follow-up story KOTOR II was a much grimmer, yet advanced take on that same story. It is remarkable how the story arch between KOTOR I and KOTOR II is similar to that of  DAO and DAI.

 

After the hero or KOTOR I (DAO) saves the world, he is gone and the world is ripped with Civil war . So a new hero with amnesia arises, and this hero is with mis-understood power.  This hero put an end to this civil war and destroys the bad guy. But in the end you know that there is a even bigger threat ready to rise.

 

 

The story itself was not bad. But KOTOR II was a flop that damaged the franchise so bad, that it had to be stocked away in some Lucas arts garage for the following 10 years. The reason why KOTOR II was hated by much were due to several reason. The buggy-ass game play and non cohesive companion quest were the start. And Majority of the game was cut from the game due to rushed release. With all this half-assedness, many of  the loyal fans of the series still played the game, and by 2013 or so, a major restoration project of the game by team gizka, restored much of the original content of the game and made it much more coherent than of the original release. 

 

But to me (and to other fans of the series as well .), the bugs and the unfinished game development was never a problem, there was just some kinda of a bad taste in the game that I couldn't understand. Recently, i revisited KOTOR II thourgh the team gizka restoration project, and came to under stand the core of it's problem.

 

 

The biggest problem of KOTOR II was the story.Because you were not dealing the 'real threat' it felt as if you were going through a side quest throughout the game. the pacing of the game was terrible, in that you really didn't have much time to indulge what is going on. You first think that the zombie sith lord is the bad guy,, then you learn of this guy with eternal hunger, and then you get to know that they're not the real threat. YadaYadaYada. Trust me, playing the game hardly makes in better. Because of this, your 'main quest' seems minuscule at best and the choices you make rarely means anything.

 

 

It seems that DAI has taken a similar path. Although they did a good job up to Haven, they aimed the story in wrong direction.

It never should have aimed at Corypheus. Or if it had, It never should have indulged in the story with the Elluvian. Because the direction is all over the place, the ending feels rushed and imperfect

 

 

While I was thinking this, one game came into my mind, and that was Mass effect 2. I always considered ME as a 're-booted' KOTOR. So naturally I considered ME2 as the re-vised version of KOTOR II.  ME2, KOTOR 2 and DAI all have very similar main story. Yet, ME 2 was a superior game over KOTOR II or DAI. The reason being 'HOW' the story is presented. In ME 2, you don't just find out about this 'bigger threat' hastily in the end.  The bigger threat is the theme of the whole story. You get to understand it through out the missions, and the game ends with a cliffhanger that gets us pumped up for ME3.

 

Similar concept, yet radically different results. DAI would have benefited much more if it followed the steps of ME2.

 

 

Get the hero of Ferelden or Hawke or the inquisitor ambushed, make them bound to the secret society in the world of Thedas(Seekers or make up somthing like the apostates of Elluvians or the inquisition perhaps? ). You get resources and recruit old friends in the free marches/Val Royeux/Denerim/Red cliff. Make the companion quests tied in to the state of Thedas, and make the choices decide both the fate of your companions, and factions(friends/allies/deminished). But let your primary missions be at the realm of Fade, or Elluvian, and you gather information about the source of the many corruption in Thedas. In the end you find out Flemeth is trying to come back to the world as a vengeful god. Through the forces you have gathered through companion quests, it decides the fate of your companions in the final assault. You escape while defeating her champion/friend god and diminish just enough power of hers to make an escape, and show in the epilogue that Flemeth plotting revenge.

 

 

If you think about it, it's almost the same story as DAI as is, but the small touches would have made a world of difference.

It would have made much of the elements of the game cohesive, and the ending wouldn't feel as 'rushed'.

Especially, the final showdown would have been much more awesome then just fighting basically 'one guy' and his pet dragon.

 

 

Other aspects of the Main story suffer as well.

 

1)  Except for the main quest choices, Almost non of your other actions change the outcome.

In ME 2 your choices of the companions decided weather they lived or died

In DAO your choices decided their fate. Hell, even KOTOR 2 gave that option.

 

In DAI, although majority of the companion quests are interesting, they seem to make little to no difference in the outcome of the game. Yes alliance with the Qun was awesome but does it have any affect on the game or the ending?. well.. NO. Do you get to know what happened to Bull..? NO.

 

I think this is because the game was made in mind for a sequel, or DLCs, so they really didn't want to make radical decisions. complications. But Because of this, You really lose all the enthusiasm and love of the characters and the story.

 

 

 

2) Majority of the 'open world' content feels irrelevant as well.

Throughout the game, I felt as if i was playing W.O.W or T.O.R. an MMORPG in the shape of a PC game. It actually reminded me much of Kindoms of Amalur as well.

 

If you've palyed K.O.A you'll know that its a game with very mixed reviews. But many critics agree that the much of what you do in the open world feels irrelevant, and that makes the game very dull. 

 

You can make changes to the world of Thedas. And some of your mission completions may make some differences. But they are not reflected in the outcome of the game or the state of your companions. Yes, you may get some power points to unlock the main story plot, but you can basically do that by gathering some rocks on the plains.

 

 

Putting up some watch tower and making it stopping from raining is a nice cherry-on-top, but that should not be all. Bioware was the company that used to understand this. 

 

There were some moments where I felt as if some had relevence. For example, When I killed a dragon and talked with bull, that gave out some interesting dialogue options. But by the middle of the game, those moments were rare to come by.

 

I think DAI should have sticked with Bioware's formula of DAO or KOTOR. Have a city, have a faction, have a town where you can interact and have fun with the people there, and feel the consequences of your decision. Instead, they make a MMOPRG ish town where players can hardly relate nor care of their fate.

 

 

I've been rambling on for hours now, so before this gets chaotic, I will try to wrap it up.

 

 

 

1) DAI is an enjoyable game. and some of the major choices you make are indeed engaging.

 

2) But the Main story is lacking at best. The ending and the pacing is just off. and much of it seems reminiscent of the mistakes done in KOTOR II

 

3) The characters are interesting however after finishing it all, I can't seem to get that closure or satisfaction I gained from KOTOR I ME2 DAO or the baldurs gate game

 

4) The MMORPG semi open world fools gamers in believing that there is more to it, but you later find out most of the missions relevant nor worth the time. 

 

 

It seems that DAI is the embodiment of what bioware was and what it's trying to be.

Sadly, much of what it was reflects the mistakes which Bioware made

and What it's trying to be deviates from what used to make Bioware great.

 

 

I do think they tried harder then Dragon age II. And it is indeed an enjoyable game

However, I truly hope they search into their masterpieces, and try to go back to their roots for their next (maybe final) installment of DA series.   MMORPGS and Slacky main stories cannot be tolerated, however interesting character plots and contents are.


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#2
Rawgrim

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They didn't fail at all, in my opinion. The game isn't perfect, but it is very very good. Deffinatly a good step in the right direction.


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#3
ORTesc

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Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.


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#4
robertthebard

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Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.


Beat me to it.
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#5
YTMND

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Beat me to it.

 

I just remembered that it was obsidian..Thanks. but I can't seem to change to topic. I guess topic title modification is not available?

makes the whole 'again' thing embarrassing.

 

However I stick to the points written below the title.


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#6
robertthebard

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I think you can change it if you go into the full editor. However, it's pretty funny, I'd leave it. One must learn to laugh at themselves, if life is to be worth living.
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#7
K3m0sabe

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Many rpg enthusiasts consider KoTOR II to be a much better RPG than the first one, with more interesting characters and overall writing... 


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#8
Guest_AedanStarfang_*

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Really just your opinion, which is fine because in my opinion the game is great and will be better once all of the bugs are patched. 


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#9
LegzMackenzie

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Well, I like KOTOR II.


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#10
Kinsz

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I still play Kotor II to this day , was my favorites for sure.
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#11
Lisa_H

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I have not finished DAI yet but so far I really like it. But then again I consider Kotor2 one of the best games(even if it was really broken) I have ever played
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#12
mikeymoonshine

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Get the hero of Ferelden or Hawke or the inquisitor ambushed, make them bound to the secret society in the world of Thedas(Seekers or make up somthing like the apostates of Elluvians or the inquisition perhaps? ). You get resources and recruit old friends in the free marches/Val Royeux/Denerim/Red cliff. Make the companion quests tied in to the state of Thedas, and make the choices decide both the fate of your companions, and factions(friends/allies/deminished). But let your primary missions be at the realm of Fade, or Elluvian, and you gather information about the source of the many corruption in Thedas. In the end you find out Flemeth is trying to come back to the world as a vengeful god. Through the forces you have gathered through companion quests, it decides the fate of your companions in the final assault. You escape while defeating her champion/friend god and diminish just enough power of hers to make an escape, and show in the epilogue that Flemeth plotting revenge.

 

Nah, I like the DA:I plot better than this.

 

You complaints seem to be that the choices didn't change the ending enough and that you can't do stuff like have your companions killed by taking them on a certain mission. Still though, a lot of the choice did change the ending and the world, there are also a lot of characters who can die due to your choices and your choices do have a large impact on your companions. 



#13
Joseph Warrick

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I'm starting to think the word "terrible" should be banned from the English language.


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#14
Vilegrim

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Many rpg enthusiasts consider KoTOR II to be a much better RPG than the first one, with more interesting characters and overall writing... 

 

 

So much this, The Exile is awesome, and the story really works for me, exploring the morality of 'light vs dark' and 'grey' had a lot more interesting things to think about than KOTOR did.  Basically you shot the wings off your argument by dissing KOTOR 2.


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#15
puppyofwar

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KOTOR II is a wonderful game, and no disrespect to BIoware, but I like it better than KOTOR, I can never look at Star Wars the same way again after Keria.


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#16
Bhaal

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KOTOR II had ten times better story and characters than the first game which was repeating old star wars cliches.


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#17
Rawgrim

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Kotor 2 did hae a great story. Too bad than mmo ruined the whole thing.


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#18
Efrim

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This is the most suspiciously succussful failure I have ever seen.


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#19
Julia Luna

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I love KOTOR II, in fact before DAI I was playing KOTOR II and I'm deeply hurt by your comparison for the following reasons:

1 - I love KOTOR II, hate KOTOR I

2 - I hate DAI

3 - I love KOTOR II story

4 - I LOVE DAI story

5 - If there is one thing that went absolutely right with DAI is the story

6 - I should fill more points with how much I love DAI story

7 - I love DAI story

8 - I love DAI story

9 - I love DAI story

10 - I hate DAI gameplay and side-quests - the really side ones - only those which don't tie in to the main quest at a significant level


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#20
Jaulen

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Many rpg enthusiasts consider KoTOR II to be a much better RPG than the first one, with more interesting characters and overall writing... 

 

I enjoyed KOTOR II better than the first one. Thought the first one was a little derivative plot-wise (although I loved it).

 

Thought Kreia from KOTOR II was the best game villian I'd come across.

 

 

edited for spelling!


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#21
Rizaun

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Didn't read.

 

lol



#22
YTMND

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I think you can change it if you go into the full editor. However, it's pretty funny, I'd leave it. One must learn to laugh at themselves, if life is to be worth living.

Yeah definitely :)

 

BTW I'm amazed how many people loved KOTOR II over KOTOR I.

 

May be more would agree if i rephrase it like this? 

: I do enjoy the whole story arch but don't appreciate the pacing or the execution of it through the game, and I believe pacing, and execution is the issue of DAI.

 

 

This is just my op. But had make sure that It wasn't the story, rather the whole execution and pacing of it.

anyways. Interesting to hear u guys opinion.



#23
DeathScepter

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who in the hell is Keria? I know of a Kreia of Kotor 2 fame but not a Keria. 



#24
YTMND

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I love KOTOR II, in fact before DAI I was playing KOTOR II and I'm deeply hurt by your comparison for the following reasons:

1 - I love KOTOR II, hate KOTOR I

2 - I hate DAI

3 - I love KOTOR II story

4 - I LOVE DAI story

5 - If there is one thing that went absolutely right with DAI is the story

6 - I should fill more points with how much I love DAI story

7 - I love DAI story

8 - I love DAI story

9 - I love DAI story

10 - I hate DAI gameplay and side-quests - the really side ones - only those which don't tie in to the main quest at a significant level

 

I'm pretty sure that that's not the correct summary of my opinion...

but I agree that I was going here to there when I was writing the TOPIC

 

I started out by finding similarities with DAI and KOTOR II

but swayed to actually criticizing other points of the game.

After writing it, I think I've kinda changed my view points.

 

I don't think the main story itself is the whole problem. 

(To me) It is a big problem, but other aspects such as the single-player-mmorpg-like quests, and the

irrelevance of majority of quests. The lacking consequences of choices etc etc all collectively kinda let me down.

 

I'd consider it a better game then DA II but compared to other masterpiece done by Bioware such as Baldurs gate or the so often cited DAO, it lacks the spirit.

 

But then again, if it's hard for mumbling gamer like my self to locate the exact problme,

I guess it would be much more difficult for the developers to get that 'spirit' as well.

hope they get back their mojo back.



#25
YTMND

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KOTOR II is a wonderful game, and no disrespect to BIoware, but I like it better than KOTOR, I can never look at Star Wars the same way again after Keria.

 

 

I enjoyed KOTOR II better than the first one. Thought the first one was a little derivative plot-wise (although I loved it).

 

Thought Keria from KOTOR II was the best game villian I'd come across.

 

 

who in the hell is Keria? I know of a Kreia of Kotor 2 fame but not a Keria. 

 

 

Yeah I really Liked Kreia. Kinda wished Flemeth to be such sort of character :b

The story was fine. Deception, new views on the force, and a different back story for Revan's quest.

 

But I dunno. I always felt as if I was headed for greatness, then just have it all halted just to fight 3 sith lords in the end.

That is what I meant by pacing. And I kinda felt the similar way to DAI.

 

Corypheus was awsome, our defeat in Haven was devastating. But We successfully cut off all the plans of Corypheus and fight with a damaged god with rarely any back up... Dunno. spirit. pacing. other stuff.

 

Sorry i can't get my head around to describe the exact issue. The massiveness of the game makes it really hard to describe. Glad that u guys loved the game and DAI as well, though.