And even Dorian is wary of the idea of mage freedom, should you speak to him after the events of Redcliffe and made them your allies.
He's not wary of mage freedom, he's wary of evil mages.
But what he failed to grasp is that giving generally moral mages their freedom is quite different from trying to control an empire that has always been evil and was only made temporarily less evil when it was being controlled by noncorrupt templars.
She doesn't need to. It is her position which is the basis for her belief about the Circles.
She assumes that mages are dangerous and will always be dangerous despite clear evidence to the contrary (ie the Inquisitor, Dorian, herself, Solus, Fiona). The only reason why mages are dangerous is because no there are no schools for mages to attend to learn how to use magic. If there were schools, mages would learn how to use magic and wouldn't be dangerous. Of all the mages we encounter, the only mages who are dangerous in general are the uneducated mages.
Regardless, her position is simply weak because her argument requires us to agree that increasing the security of nonmages requires locking mages up and that this huge loss of freedom for the mages makes society better off and is thus a moral and just action. Which it isn't.There are other options which would achieve similar results without robbing mages of their freedom. And even if there weren't, she'd still have to prove how increasing the security of one person by denying another person their freedom is a just action, something which she has failed to do.
No, Vivienne is not about locking up mages, but rather providing a safe, relatively controlled environment. There's a reason why she Greatly Approves if you say that there should be mages in the Chantry after she asks where you see the future of mages in Thedas going. Vivienne doesn't want the old Circle system, but she does want a Circle system.
The EU is generally crap.
Every single one of the 3 main bad guys is completely unbelieveable. Let me name the ways:
1) Being able to survive being decapitated and cut into tiny pieces. That's impossible. You'd be killed and turned into a force ghost according to Kotor 1. While the Force was able to slowly restore inanimate objects in Kotor 1, that process took thousands of years just to restore a star map or human sized droid. And even then, it was a combination of the Force and nanobots. That wasn't even really a big deal since normal droids could also repair themselves even faster without using the Force (provided they hadn't been destroyed).
2) Being able to use the force to destroy an entire planet of force users. That's impossible. The force has never been portrayed as being able to perform feats like that, in fact it has been portrayed in quite the opposite fashion in Kotor 1.
3) Being able to use the Force to destroy the Force. That's impossible. That also implies that the Force is something other than the Force. In the Star Wars episodes 4-6, the Force is portrayed more along the lines of being or existence itself, the thing which composes the universe. Kotor 1 doesn't really dispute that concept. Even episodes 1-3 tend to hold a similar view, but living beings are only able to interact with the higher plane of existence in so far as they have undefinable midichlorians in their bodies. In order for the Force to be destroyable, it would have to be a discrete existence, which doesn't really mesh with how it is portrayed.
1) You are making a fair amount of this up as you go, or remembering it very badly. I just replayed KOTOR 1 and 2 a few months ago, to refresh my meory of events after Shadow of revan was announced. For example, the thing about nanobots isn't there at all. Also KOTOR 1 doe snot ever say that something is impossibe. Least of all a powerful and unique Force ability like Sion holding himself together. In fact, Star Wars lore has numerous accounts of people being able to do things with the Force that can't be duplicated by others.
2) Oh now this is to easy. Not only is that NOT an impossible feat, its been done before, at various levels of scale. Are the video games your only source of information about the Star Wars universe, perhaps? O.o
3) You are in fact correct. The Force cannot destroy itself, because it is a product of all living things in the galaxy. Kreia was bats**t crazy, and by the end of the game that's actually fairly obvious.
She assumes that mages are dangerous and will always be dangerous despite clear evidence to the contrary (ie the Inquisitor, Dorian, herself, Solus, Fiona).
Mages ARE dangerous, and there is no evidence to the contrary. Indeed she points out that the Chantry in Kirkwall was blown up by a single mage with a snap of his fingers.
The only reason why mages are dangerous is because no there are no schools for mages to attend to learn how to use magic. If there were schools, mages would learn how to use magic and wouldn't be dangerous. Of all the mages we encounter, the only mages who are dangerous in general are the uneducated mages.
You mean like Tevinter? Dorian makes it very clear how dangerous Tevinter mages are.
Regardless, her position is simply weak because her argument requires us to agree that increasing the security of nonmages requires locking mages up .
Once again this is a strawman because she says no such thing. In fact she clearly revels in the idea of mages coming and going freely from the tower. She DOES say that mages need to learn magic in a controlled, safe environment.
Since Disney decided to make The Clone Wars and the Rebels cartoon canon, this here is nothing. They even block laser blasts with fruit on the Rebels show. And Darth Maul survived being chopped in half, and falling down a 200 meter shaft. Reason given: He had much hatred in him.
Yes, the same Clone Wars show that also had actual magic in it. Magic which was able to make hi-tech robotic prosthetics out of green magic gas.
Oh man, all of Star Wars had magic in it. Even Billy Dee Williams is 1/10 magic.
Mages ARE dangerous, and there is no evidence to the contrary. Indeed she points out that the Chantry in Kirkwall was blown up by a single mage with a snap of his fingers.
You mean like Tevinter? Dorian makes it very clear how dangerous Tevinter mages are.
Once again this is a strawman because she says no such thing. In fact she clearly revels in the idea of mages coming and going freely from the tower. She DOES say that mages need to learn magic in a controlled, safe environment.
She actually does quite say that giving mages back their freedom would rob nonmages of their freedom because it would reduce their security. While I'm not quoting verbatim, that's the gist of her argument.
She actually does quite say that giving mages back their freedom would rob nonmages of their freedom because it would reduce their security. While I'm not quoting verbatim, that's the gist of her argument.
You're either misquoting or misunderstanding her.
She doesn't need to. It is her position which is the basis for her belief about the Circles.
She assumes that mages are dangerous and will always be dangerous despite clear evidence to the contrary (ie the Inquisitor, Dorian, herself, Solus, Fiona). The only reason why mages are dangerous is because no there are no schools for mages to attend to learn how to use magic. If there were schools, mages would learn how to use magic and wouldn't be dangerous. Of all the mages we encounter, the only mages who are dangerous in general are the uneducated mages.
That's blatantly inaccurate. The Circles are schools. Kirkwall was an example of Circles at their worst, to be sure. But the Circle of Ferelden, and by her descriptions, the Circle Vivienne grew up in, are schools with far less abuses than Kirkwall. The concept by itself is not flawed, but the execution has become very flawed indeed. Vivienne looks to reinstate the ideal version,
And you last sentence is completely silly. Which mage, in particular, was an uneducated danger? All the ones I recall were more dangerous because of their education.
Oh man, all of Star Wars had magic in it. Even Billy Dee Williams is 1/10 magic.
There's magic, and then there's magic.
Internal consistency is the key, and both the Clone Wars and Kotor 2 lacked any sense of internal consistency.
The most dangerous mages in Thedas are also the best educated in their craft. Motherloving vints have Arcane Cookbooks and Encyclopedia Diabolica on hand.
There's magic, and then there's magic.
Internal consistency is the key, and both the Clone Wars and Kotor 2 lacked any sense of internal consistency.
I...give the hell up. There is no point in beating my head against a wall.
That's blatantly inaccurate. The Circles are schools. Kirkwall was an example of Circles at their worst, to be sure. But the Circle of Ferelden, and by her descriptions, the Circle Vivienne grew up in, are schools with far less abuses than Kirkwall. The concept by itself is not flawed, but the execution has become very flawed indeed. Vivienne looks to reinstate the ideal version,
And you last sentence is completely silly. Which mage, in particular, was an uneducated danger? All the ones I recall were more dangerous because of their education.
They were not schools. They were prisons. If they were schools, the mages wouldn't have been locked up inside them, and the Templars certainly wouldn't have been able to acquire writs enabling them to kill every single mage in the tower without any additional or specific cause beyond the general cause granting the writ.
Mages were only allowed to leave the circles if they were given special permissions, permission which would be denied or revoked without cause or review. Mages also weren't allowed to have families.
And it is your last sentence that is silly. All the mages in your party who aren't dangerous are educated mages. It is only mages like Connor who were uneducated and dangerous. Or perhaps we are using two different definitions of dangerous? I mean being unable to control their own magic or being susceptible to demonic control. I'm not talking about ability to blow stuff up.
They were not schools. They were prisons. If they were schools, the mages wouldn't have been locked up inside them, and the Templars certainly wouldn't have been able to acquire writs enabling them to kill every single mage in the tower without any additional or specific cause beyond the general cause granting the writ.
Mages were only allowed to leave the circles if they were given special permissions, permission which would be denied or revoked without cause or review. Mages also weren't allowed to have families.
And it is your last sentence that is silly. All the mages in your party who aren't dangerous are educated mages. It is only mages like Connor who were uneducated and dangerous. Or perhaps we are using two different definitions of dangerous? I mean being unable to control their own magic or being susceptible to demonic control. I'm not talking about ability to blow stuff up.
You don't get to leave a boarding school either, without special permissions. Its still a school.
And as for dangerous, you'r right we were talking about two different things. You mean the mages that can't be possessed don't turn into abominations, and never consort with demons for power or glory. Right, sorry.
Oh wait, that never actually happens does it. Mages are dangerous by existing. The very reason Vivienne is such an interesting character is that her reasons for being afraid, and desiring control, are valid, even if her conclusions are a bit more conservative than I'd care for.
I...give the hell up. There is no point in beating my head against a wall.
Magical systems operate via logical mechanisms, mechanisms and concepts which are explained within the fictional work either directly or by use.
Compare Star Wars episodes 4-6 with The Clone Wars. The mechanism explaining how the Force works and what it is, its general limitations are quite different between the two. And the magical green gas actually isn't explained at all. It's more used because the writer lacked imagination and needed an easy plot device. And the very fact of its existence raises a lot of questions that need an explanation but weren't ever explained because it was just a poorly thought out plot device. Such questions as, if this magical gas is so amazing, why doesn't anybody else use it? Why don't the witches use it to directly kill Dooku or the Emperor? How does it make Savage immune to vibroblades and blaster fire in some scenes but not in other scenes? The complete lack of consistency, explanation and sudden disappearance shows that the whole magical gas concept was poorly thought out, poorly executed and doesn't actually exist outside of the few episodes in which it is used.
They were not schools. They were prisons. If they were schools, the mages wouldn't have been locked up inside them, and the Templars certainly wouldn't have been able to acquire writs enabling them to kill every single mage in the tower without any additional or specific cause beyond the general cause granting the writ.
Most Circles will allow their mages to freely leave the tower once trained and in control of their powers, until that point they are a danger and do require supervision.
The Rite is inacted as a last resort in case the Tower is overrun with abominations. It was made a thing after Abominations overran the Nevarran circle killing every templar and mage inside.
Mages were only allowed to leave the circles if they were given special permissions, permission which would be denied or revoked without cause or review. Mages also weren't allowed to have families.
Mages are usually allowed to leave the tower with the permission of the First Enchanter, a mage. Permission is usually freely given.
All the mages in your party who aren't dangerous are educated mages. It is only mages like Connor who were uneducated and dangerous. Or perhaps we are using two different definitions of dangerous? I mean being unable to control their own magic or being susceptible to demonic control. I'm not talking about ability to blow stuff up.
You mean like Morrigan who desires to resurrect an Old God, or Anders who killed hundreds for the sake of his crusade?
You don't get to leave a boarding school either, without special permissions. Its still a school.
And as for dangerous, you'r right we were talking about two different things. You mean the mages that can't be possessed don't turn into abominations, and never consort with demons for power or glory. Right, sorry.
Oh wait, that never actually happens does it. Mages are dangerous by existing. The very reason Vivienne is such an interesting character is that her reasons for being afraid, and desiring control, are valid, even if her conclusions are a bit more conservative than I'd care for.
Mages are no more dangerous by simply existing than anyone else is. You can go buy a gun in a store if you want, but does the act of buying a gun convert you from nondangerous to dangerous person? Or does it require something more, such as the mindset needed to commit damaging acts?
Plus, Vivienne is really being a very deceptive character, as her clear motive really seems to be reinstating the circle system which would give her back a lot of the political power she lost when the circles rebelled and were dissolved.
Plus, Vivienne is really being a very deceptive character, as her clear motive really seems to be reinstating the circle system which would give her back a lot of the political power she lost when the circles rebelled and were dissolved.
Vivienne is first enchanter, one of the only ones who remains. She's in charge of the loyalists as Fiona is in charge of the Liberal faction. She makes it perfectly clear she could name herself Grand Enchanter if she wants, but she sees little point in it. She ends up supporting a candidate for the Divine which would bring very clear and abrupt changes to the Circle system.
You should really talk to her more.
Most Circles will allow their mages to freely leave the tower once trained and in control of their powers, until that point they are a danger and do require supervision.
The Rite is inacted as a last resort in case the Tower is overrun with abominations. It was made a thing after Abominations overran the Nevarran circle killing every templar and mage inside.
Mages are usually allowed to leave the tower with the permission of the First Enchanter, a mage. Permission is usually freely given.
You mean like Morrigan who desires to resurrect an Old God, or Anders who killed hundreds for the sake of his crusade?
Or the Qunari or dwarves who do the same thing with explosive chemicals?
I can't wait until they start locking up their scientists in Circles.
I'd like you to give me an example of where in the games a mage was allowed to leave the Circle and live a normal life. The very fact that Anders was constantly trying to run away and was only finally able to escape because he became a Warden, or how the elves are constantly on the lam and considered apostates even though they are equivalent to circle trained mages in regards to being able to control their magic?
Being able to take a sojourn isn't the same thing as being able to leave the Circle. A mage can't simply declare themselves trained and then go off to start living their own life.
Mages are no more dangerous by simply existing than anyone else is. You can go buy a gun in a store if you want, but does the act of buying a gun convert you from nondangerous to dangerous person? Or does it require something more, such as the mindset needed to commit damaging acts?
Plus, Vivienne is really being a very deceptive character, as her clear motive really seems to be reinstating the circle system which would give her back a lot of the political power she lost when the circles rebelled and were dissolved.
What?? YES. Yes they are more dangerous. Nonmages can't be possessed in their sleep by demons, and go on horrible rampages. They are uniquely vulnerable, and therefore uniquely dangerous. I would certainly agree that the Templar Order and the Circle system is flawed and needs to be revised at best, and replaced at worst, but you're suggesting that no system of control and protection is needed at all. Dragon Age's magea re not Tolkien's wizards, who only start hurting people when they choose to.
Vivienne is first enchanter, one of the only ones who remains. She's in charge of the loyalists as Fiona is in charge of the Liberal faction. She makes it perfectly clear she could name herself Grand Enchanter if she wants, but she sees little point in it. She ends up supporting a candidate for the Divine which would bring very clear and abrupt changes to the Circle system.
You should really talk to her more.
I did. She doesn't name herself Grand Enchanter for 2 reasons:
1) It would be an empty title without the political power that only attaches to the title under the circle system (she does say this specifically).
2) Naming herself Grand Enchanter would make her and the process appear extremely corrupt and might actually lead to her not only being stripped of the title but also being denied consideration for a position when the circles are reformed (she very strongly implies this).
What?? YES. Yes they are more dangerous. Nonmages can't be possessed in their sleep by demons, and go on horrible rampages. They are uniquely vulnerable, and therefore uniquely dangerous. I would certainly agree that the Templar Order and the Circle system is flawed and needs to be revised at best, and replaced at worst, but you're suggesting that no system of control and protection is needed at all. Dragon Age's magea re not Tolkien's wizards, who only start hurting people when they choose to.
We have never once been shown anything in the games which would actually lead one to believe that mages once trained can be possessed in their sleep simply because they are asleep. In fact possession as demonstrated in the games requires some affirmative action on the part of the mage, meaning that a mage is only possessed in their sleep because they are approached by a demon when their consciousness slips into the fade and then agree to be possessed. Simply going to sleep isn't enough. That is in fact what happened with Connor. He was approached by a demon who told him that he could save his father if he agreed to be possessed, which of course he did since he was a child and didn't understand what he was agreeing to.
I'd like you to give me an example of where in the games a mage was allowed to leave the Circle and live a normal life.
No problem. Wilhelm, the mage of Honnleath. He was even married.
Vivienne, although I'll admit that's probably an example you'll reject as she is of the upper class, and thus has more privileges.
Galyan, in Dawn of the Seeker. He is free to come and go as he pleases.
Or the Qunari or dwarves who do the same thing with explosive chemicals?
So the Quanari and dwarves allow untrained apprentices to run around mixing explosive stuff together?
I can't wait until they start locking up their scientists in Circles.
Scientists are fully trained, mages can leave most circles when fully trained with permission from the First Enchanter. Vivienne supports this.
I'd like you to give me an example of where in the games a mage was allowed to leave the Circle and live a normal life.
Which limits the examples to Kirkwall, a circle controlled by a Templar driven insane by red lyrium, or the opening scene in Origins where you were an apprentice.
But Wynne could travel freely, so could that lady you had to hunt around for in the forest. The one searching for flowers. They didn't explicitly state this because it wasn't important.
The very fact that Anders was constantly trying to run away and was only finally able to escape because he became a Warden,
Anders tried to run away as a student. He tried to run away 7 times before finally causing a demon to be let loose.
or how the elves are constantly on the lam and considered apostates even though they are equivalent to circle trained mages in regards to being able to control their magic?
Are you talking about the Dalish? The ones kicked out by their own clans because they only allow about 2 mages in close proximity to each other?
Being able to take a sojourn isn't the same thing as being able to leave the Circle. A mage can't simply declare themselves trained and then go off to start living their own life.
As long as they are under Templar supervision, yes. And this is a belief also held by Vivienne, that mages should be able to live their own lives. Like I said, you should talk to her more.
We have never once been shown anything in the games which would actually lead one to believe that mages once trained can be possessed in their sleep simply because they are asleep. In fact possession as demonstrated in the games requires some affirmative action on the part of the mage, meaning that a mage is only possessed in their sleep because they are approached by a demon when their consciousness slips into the fade and then agree to be possessed. Simply going to sleep isn't enough. That is in fact what happened with Connor. He was approached by a demon who told him that he could save his father if he agreed to be possessed, which of course he did since he was a child and didn't understand what he was agreeing to.
You mean like all the Codex entries that state how demons constantly tempt a mage while they travel the fade in their dreams?
And Connor is a perfect example of exactly why Circles, or something similar should exist in Dragon Age. If he HAD been at a Circle, there would have been people nearby that could have handled the situation. Instead it was just his idiot mother, and the result of his lack of education and desperation resulted in many people dying.
Ever run into Connor in DAI? I did. He really hates the idea of not being in a Circle.
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