117 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

Well, I suppose being led around by the nose and being given the illusions of choice, which affects little to nothing once that specific cut scene/conversation is over is fine. But for an RPG, the choices to have a persistent impact in the state of things outside of companion approval would actually be player agency, rather just an imitation of it. The companion quests are the only parts which have had any persistent impact, and even those is only in regards to how the companions react to the Inquisitor or each other. The world remains relatively static.

And I am not complaining that the various Andrasteans continue to believe what they will, but the complete lack of agency in affected how Skyhold is even run. And as for running off all your allies, that should be an option, even if very few people do that. But Woohoo! why expect more choices when I can just putting up with the sanctamonious preaching of random NPCs while being their "chosen one" /sarcasm.

While I think everyone would favor a game in which you can do everything you want and have every NPC react to your actions and have the world visibly change and have everything you have ever done result in completely unique endings, it doesn't seem like a very realistic expectation in a game series like this. You're talking about dealing with recurring NPCs and former PCs from two previous games (not to mention the novels), and new player characters of multiple races and genders, along with all-new companions with their own stories.

And on top of that, you're also dealing with what looks to be a rather more complex overarching story (based on what happens towards the end of the game) that is going to take at least one or two (or even more) games to deal with. Those are a lot of balls to juggle, especially when you factor in past decisions players have made and their ongoing impact on the universe.

Some of this stuff obviously just involves cosmetic changes, but you could say that about a lot of choices you make in a lot of games. The Walking Dead (S1) was an emotional rollercoaster and had characters that I cared about, but for all the decisions you get to make and the different things you can say, it's pretty clear that the impact of every choice that you get to make is largely cosmetic. It all ends one way, and any impact on S2 is just a matter of some dialogue/actions chosen by the player that pretty much just acknowledge Lee and some past events. That being said, it was a great deal more enjoyable in terms of emotional impact compared to something like Wasteland 2 (an actual RPG) where I did have a certain amount of freedom to do whatever I wanted - kind of like what you view as the most gloriously exalted game in the universe, otherwise known as DA:O.

I played Wasteland 2 this year, and while I enjoyed it - and the obvious freedom to do anything I wanted like kill everyone in the entire Hollywood hub if I so desired it - it all ends the same way. I honestly felt nothing for any of the interchangeable companions - except maybe for Angela Deth. And as for that Hollywood thing? I accidentally turned the entire town against me and made them attack me - all because I decided to be proactive and take out Heidi - a person that everyone in town seemed to hate and complain about because she's basically the head of all criminal enterprises AND the corrupt "police" force.

Frankly, I'm surprised that they turned on me, rather than throwing confetti in celebration for me taking initiative like that. And I found it fairly illogical, especially with the drug trade, gambling, and slavery issues that I tried to solve in one fell swoop. Oh well! So great, I had the freedom to do that...and then the completely illogical response from everyone in town (including at least six people I'd helped who DIRECTLY complained about all this crap - yeah, they went hostile too).

And while you can choose between two towns (the Ag Center or Highpool) earlier on, that choice ultimately doesn't have much effect in the game - other than showing that one town/location is totally ruined and that the other is safe. While it's great that you can see what happened, as far as I can recall, it was essentially meaningless except for a few acknowledgments in dialogue and different NPCs being slightly PO'd by one decision or the other. You certainly do get different quests if you save one town over the other, but I couldn't be bothered to finish to finish my second playthrough due to major, major bugs (vis-a-vis Hollywood) even though the issues were later fixed.

I mean, it's not like you see the entirety of Arizona suddenly turn Edenic if you save Highpool or get to see well-fed citizens nomming on giant veggies thanks to the Ag Center if you save it. Only, only, in the epilogue did some of what I did (like saving the Ag Center or Highpool) really matter. I would say that the choice itself is probably roughly like aligning with the templars OR aligning with the mages in DA:I. Otherwise, it was mostly cosmetic because almost all your companions die at the end of the game - and you really don't have a choice about saving them. A few different NPCs might show up during the final mission, but they'll pretty much all get themselves killed during combat anyway, so it's kind of like, who cares?

Also, what was glaringly obvious is that one of my companions had a problem - a major problem - the kind of problem that screamed "this person is going to turn traitor on you because she has an artificial implant like those other people who went psycho when the AI decided to control them." I liked this companion somewhat for her utility (not like I had that much companion interaction, so it really wasn't about her personality), so I was like "hey, maybe we should stop and deal with this at some point?????" in my head. Unfortunately, this glaringly problematic issue was not addressed at all.

And you flat-out know or should have definite suspicions about what's happening fairly early on in the game when you get to the Temple of Titan. If logic ruled the day, you should've had the chance to do something about the obvious infiltrator inside the M.A.D. Monks' infirmary. The fact that you couldn't really address it (short of breaking in and killing all the monks) struck me as being illogical. The other reason I considered the companion with the implant to be a huge case of logic fail was because of a quest I did in Damonta (which you go to after the Temple) showed us exactly what happened to people with these artificial implants.

So hey, yeah, it's great having that freedom on one level if you're inclined to play a butcher, mass murderer, etc. However, even games like that clearly have issues vis-a-vis the reaction of the entirety of the Hollywood hub, the fact that the companion I knew had a problem was not addressed or dealt with in a logical manner, and the fact that most of the stuff was cosmetic, etc. While a game like DA:I might have a reduced level of that kind of agency, it also has a story and characters that I care about more - to the point that I am willing to make the trade-off of not having every NPC curling up into a ball and crying if I want to be a jerk to them, etc.

There are still plenty of other games where you can do that - hey, try Wasteland 2 if you want. I enjoyed it, and it was fun, especially because of the old-school combat...but did I love it like DA:I for all the freedom I had? Not really - I liked it, but it hasn't inspired any long-term devotion (and I was a backer of the game at a really high tier too - I think I spent $250 for a signed copy of the game...which I still haven't gotten yet *rolleyes*). Sure, I'd like for them to be able to do even more in terms of making choices matter and providing more choices in future DA games if there are any, but as for the current DA:I, I think there is player agency but just not to the extent that people like you want.

And while you may be able to reduce your party down to whatever number you like in DA:O, I think you're viewing the amount of agency you had in that game and its impact with rose-colored glasses - I mean, the game ends one way after all. It's just a matter of a few degrees of difference, depending on what choices you make. You might scream "I can turn Loghain into a Warden, hah!" but he's interchangeable with your PC or Alistair. It's cosmetic like many choices that we make really are. Choose between the elves and the werewolves, and tell me, how much of an impact did it really have in the end.

I think it's really just a matter of how well devs can execute giving you the illusion that your choices matter. Maybe in a situation with a totally fixed protagonist and a story that's pretty much already written for you vis-a-vis The Witcher games, maybe you can pull that off just a bit better to the extent that you can have very different content. I suspect it's much more difficult to pull of in something like the DA games with the multiple PC options and companions and a complex story that we really still don't know very much about (other than, at this point, probably having a sneaking suspicion that something major is in store for us down the line based on the ending and the post-credit cutscene).

[Chashan]

Thing is ... in my opinion, Bioware games generally, logically, should not work if you're too much of a selfish, evil git or an insulting, abusive assbag. They're written as heroic journeys, generally there's a big "save the world" dilemma of some kind being dropped on our shoulders, and most of our companions strongly tend to support a certain selfless do-gooder narrative (especially the ones who are introduced early and most involved in the plot -- Morrigan is the one exception I can really think of right now). And because there is usually so much at stake, success requires cooperation, compromise, team-building and so on. If you ****** everyone off, if you kick our your team mates, trample all over the beliefs of the people, spit in the faces of the authorities, flaunt the law too much and for selfish reasons, coldly slaughter a bunch of potential allies ... you should lose because nobody will stand with you as you have clearly shown that you cannot be trusted. Or at least, it should make things noticably, painfully harder. When a story progresses pretty much the same way for a "good" character and an "evil" one, something's broken. You need consequences for your actions (and that doesn't and shoudn't always mean evil = harder or good = positive outcome) or the whole thing falls apart into nothing but a shallow power-trip.

 

While my own preferences run quite strongly towards that do-gooder sort of character and story, I certainly agree that there should be room for some ... less heroic ones. But I honestly think that this sort of game is not really meant for that. It'd work better in a game written with that sort of thing in mind, just as Bioware games are written mostly for the heroic types. The more divergent choices you allow players, the less you're able to flesh them all out, and the more unsatisfied you leave players as a result -- especially the ones who want to go with the choices that "deviate" from the "intended spirit" of a game.

 

That is why, my own preferences aside, I just can't play the evil/selfish/ruthless types in Bioware games. It just feels wrong in terms of story cohesion and continuity, and if I played that way, I would probably feel a bit let down too because 1) the game doesn't offer me enough choices of this kind and 2) the world does not react to my actions accordingly.

 

Long story short: I kind of understand where some people in this thread are coming from, I just think it may help to be aware that you're sort of "swimming against the stream" of the game's intended narrative.

 

I would argue that the initial statement is not true at all, when looking at a couple of BW's titles that offered very distinct "dark" and "light side"-paths, namely KotOR and Jade Empire. And you know what made the "dark" paths of those so darned great, far as I am concerned? They were great because there were more currents to them than just plain malice - they touched upon the PC's characterization, took into direct account certain events of the game and the actions of certain NPCs as well as the PC's relationship to them. Having an actual choice of either delivering the world from a conquering tyrant or toppling said tyrant and conquer yourself - singular experiences to me, in both cases, and I would certainly welcome if BW gave that a shot again one of these days in a new game.

 

Even when it comes to the 'world-saving'-formula, DA:O showed that you could very well take darker turns and be rewarded for it in immediate practical terms - with the Anvil preserved, say, one may have bought the golems with the blood spilled far later after the Blight to have more of them constructed, but the immediate gain is what takes precedence, and yes, that immediate gain does translate into a very worth-while call-in in DA:O's final stage.

Idealism is all well and good, yet we can see time and again that it alone won't carry the day, in truth as well as fiction. So to have a story that feels authentic and not like "a power-trip", which it would if it were to one-sidedly reward the "light side"-route, balance is needed - not just continuous malice but also unswerving benevolence should not always produce the best, practical outcome.

Having just gone through the Winter Palace, I can certainly see that some of this balanced approach is actually there in DA:I. Needless to say, with the options presented there my Dalish had little trouble to let the Empress die and hoist Briala to the back of the throne, keeping the new Emperor at knife-point. I just would have greatly appreciated far more of this in the many hours preceeding the event in my playthrough, of which there is, as I observed, slim pickings at best. if any at all.

[Massa FX]

Back to the OP.  

 

Yes, I too was riveted during the song "The Dawn Will Come".  It's timing was perfect and although it seemed very [Awww, they're singing] at first, it did get emotional for me. 

 

It worked for that moment in this game. It was special.

 

It would never work with Shepard. LOL!

"What the HELL you doing?!" comes to mind.

[schall_und_rauch]

Thing is ... in my opinion, Bioware games generally, logically, should not work if you're too much of a selfish, evil git or an insulting, abusive assbag. They're written as heroic journeys, generally there's a big "save the world" dilemma of some kind being dropped on our shoulders, and most of our companions strongly tend to support a certain selfless do-gooder narrative (especially the ones who are introduced early and most involved in the plot -- Morrigan is the one exception I can really think of right now). And because there is usually so much at stake, success requires cooperation, compromise, team-building and so on. If you ****** everyone off, if you kick our your team mates, trample all over the beliefs of the people, spit in the faces of the authorities, flaunt the law too much and for selfish reasons, coldly slaughter a bunch of potential allies ... you should lose because nobody will stand with you as you have clearly shown that you cannot be trusted. Or at least, it should make things noticably, painfully harder. When a story progresses pretty much the same way for a "good" character and an "evil" one, something's broken. You need consequences for your actions (and that doesn't and shoudn't always mean evil = harder or good = positive outcome) or the whole thing falls apart into nothing but a shallow power-trip.

 

 

I think that's a fair point. I think it'd be lovely if the game had more elements of "what do people in general think of you" -- and if you do everything to spite them and show that you are a selfish bastard who does not inspire at all, you should fail. 

"The Inquisition" only has power -- it'd be nice if it had a reputation score, built on your actions. The lower your reputation, the harder the remaining game. Should it fall below a threshold, it should be "Inquisition has failed, everybody deserted, game over."

[schall_und_rauch]

Aside from that, I think it's not a religious scene at all. It's a theme about, in the darkest hour, when the city has been lost, people are on the run, the major leads are fighting among each other, there is still hope to prevail against the darkness. And there is one figure who has so far stood against the threat and survived where he should not have.

That's the message: "Even though the night is dark now, don't give up, because the dawn will come."

 

It's not a sign of "The Maker", but any sign of hope and belief people have in the Inquisitor -- Mother Giselle just focuses that hope into a song, because she is the authority of the beliefs of the common people. The fact that she represents a particular religion is unimportant here.

[Korva]

I would argue that the initial statement is not true at all, when looking at a couple of BW's titles that offered very distinct "dark" and "light side"-paths, namely KotOR and Jade Empire.

 

Neither game works if you play it "dark" overall -- or at least, it shouldn't, because the people around you would notice and not stand for it. That is my point. The fact that it does work means it's broken. The excuse of our characters always being some kind of special fated hero only goes so far when it comes to everyone around us tolerating or flat-out ignoring problematic or even atrocious behavior. At some point, you become as much of a problem as the evil you're supposed to stop, and everyone with a shred of brains and/or ethics would rally against you.

 

I agree with you to a point that a few elements of the evil path are done well, but I just can't take the overall thing seriously because it turns far too many blind eyes.

 

 

Idealism is all well and good, yet we can see time and again that it alone won't carry the day, in truth as well as fiction. So to have a story that feels authentic and not like "a power-trip", which it would if it were to one-sidedly reward the "light side"-route, balance is needed - not just continuous malice but also unswerving benevolence should not always produce the best, practical outcome.

 

 

That I can agree with. Baldur's Gate 2 had a few moments in which "giving in to your nature" made things harder or cost you something (belated edit: total brainfart, I meant to write NOT giving in to your nature), if only in small ways, and as I recall there are some scammers in the DA:O alienage that'll happily make up sob stories if you're too generous/credulous. That sort of thing can be fun. My main wish is that companions are written to take more of a stand. The Baldur's Gate series are the only Bioware games that do this semi-decently, because they offer a pretty big roster of both good and evil party members, all of which will tell you where to stick it if you go too far in the opposite direction, and may even attack you.

 

Still, I think that a game like this will never really benefit from allowing too-extreme choices that go against the grain of the story. I'd rather see the "intended" course fleshed out more and given more nuances than have options that are just there to be there even if they don't make sense.

Also, no unmasked story spoilers past In Your Heart Shall Burn, please, since that's the original topic.

[Trickshavv]

Not for nothing, but I find it ironic that you're railing against a fantasy religion with a user name like yours. Imagine the parallel one could draw from that. XD

That's what we call, "pwnt".

[AlexMBrennan]

Honestly? I was laughing and thinking that Bioware is trying to copy everything popular from The Hobbit () to Skyrim

[aphelion4]

I thought it was hilariously awkward tbh, but then singing in games/movies is always awkward. I can appreciate what the scene was trying to do tho. Also lol @ some people getting their undies in a twist over an in-game religion.

[Doominike]

The song I let slide, it's fine, but overall I think her "wise old woman" schtick fails

[The Loyal Nub]

Honestly? I was laughing and thinking that Bioware is trying to copy everything popular from The Hobbit () to Skyrim

 

I was just about to post this. I enjoyed this moment in game but did immediately think of The Hobbit and that song. They probably intended it as a nod in Jackson's direction anyway.

[rpgfan321]

I thought it was beautiful in what it portrayed about the Andrastian religion. I thought it was poignant. 

[Carmen_Willow]

I'm wondering what exactly that song is.

 

It doesn't sound like a portion of the Chant, but it could be, it could be a marching song, a folk song, something to that effect.

 

Its very wide spread though; a very diverse audience sings it.

 

So again...it could be the Chant.

It reminded me of the "Come, come ye Saints," hymn which, I believe, is sort of the Mormon or Community of Christ hymn, or "Simple Gifts" which was the Shaker theme song. I suspect that many denominations have a hymn that is "special" to them. "Amazing Grace" is considered the "American" hymn, although it is written by an Englishman, etc. I imagine it came from a time when the young church was struggling to get its foothold in the world.  A hymn of the church, so old, so well known, that any Andrastian would know it. 

 

As an aside to those who wanted to laugh, sit through enough musicals and people bursting into song becomes...normal. LOL

[RobRam10]

My reaction to this musical:

[Precursor Meta]

It bugged me a bit. I couldn't help but think they were trying be be like a Disney musical.

But the scene when Solas showed you skyhold was f'in epic. I was like Oooo!

[Fishy]

When the sister started to sing I had my ''awkward face''.. All I was thinking was - Okay this is going to be super cheesy lol. Especially with the walking animation. It was bad ( they should use motion capture for stuff like this)

 

Than Leliana started to sing .. Than I though .. Well that not so bad after all. When Cullen started to sing and I just laughed so hard I think I broke my vocal cords.. When Cullen afce appeared I was saying outloud  - Don't sing.. Don't sing .. than he started to sing.. Oh no !! LOL

 

Than everyone started to sing and it become great . After this  the cinematic with my Inquisitor hiking through the mountain played nicely with Solas narration. It was epic. Especially the part when Skyhold appeared in the distance.

[Cerulione]

The song part, + attack on haven & becoming Inquisitor is basically my favourite scenes so far. (I'm halfway through). Actually, all main story scenes are really great. The attack on Adamant too...

[dragonflight288]

It reminded me of the "Come, come ye Saints," hymn which, I believe, is sort of the Mormon or Community of Christ hymn, or "Simple Gifts" which was the Shaker theme song. I suspect that many denominations have a hymn that is "special" to them. "Amazing Grace" is considered the "American" hymn, although it is written by an Englishman, etc. I imagine it came from a time when the young church was struggling to get its foothold in the world.  A hymn of the church, so old, so well known, that any Andrastian would know it. 

 

As an aside to those who wanted to laugh, sit through enough musicals and people bursting into song becomes...normal. LOL

 

Come Come Ye Saints was written by one of the pioneers driven out of Nauvoo. They left in February and walked across the Great Plains in the coldest part of winter, crossing Nebraska, Colorado, up through the Rocky's and down into the Salt Lake Valley where they settled. Along the way, the writer's child was born. In the midst of suffering, frostbite, starvation and death, he wrote that song in celebration of all that they still had, all that was good, how God was looking out for them, and they they had reasons to rejoice. 

 

It's a lot like The Dawn Will Come in that regard. But a very different tune, tempo and such. 

 

And yeah, I happen to be a broadway geek. I love musicals so I didn't see this as too odd. Loved the scene overall as I said in my original post. 

[PrinceLionheart]

I loved it. 

[Ascendra]

I thought it was cheesy
I really like the song, but singing...
Skyhold moment was great though

[Ennai and 54 others]

Cheesy as ****!

The worst part was when that 1 fool bowed infront of the inquisitor.I lost respect for everyone who sang that song ,especially Cullen.Hope quietly if you must hope!

Solas is a badass though.

[schall_und_rauch]

Did the people who found this cheesy also find Leliana singing in DAO cheesy?

It's a different context, but this is not the first time somebody sang in DA.

[Lukas Trevelyan]

Peak RP moment for me this game. 

Haven has fallen, my character as he confronts Corypheus holds on to his belief that his mark was a gift of Andraste, when Corypheus just destroys him. When he destroys Haven and barely survives his faith is shaken and his depression gets the better of him, he tells Mother Giselle that he believed, yet it accomplished nothing. Then Mother Giselle started a comforting chant, where everyone joined in, strengthening hope, the Inquisitor looks and sees the people who still hold on.. who still believe.. who'll still follow him. His faith is fully restored as Mother Giselle reassures him that faith is always tested. Honestly the whole part is the best game experience I've ever had, chills ran down my spine and I almost shed a tear. People can laugh or mock it if they'd like, but this scene will always hold a special place in my heart. 

[Zu Long]

One of my favorite scenes in the game, no doubt.

[Laurelinde]

The whole segment of escaping Haven, getting to the camp, feeling lost and hopeless, the song and then the trek to discover Skyhold and become Inquisitor was amazing, for me.  It felt very cinematic for me.  And the music for DAI has really knocked it out of the park, it's just incredible.