87 réponses à ce sujet

[Reptillius]

ok. is it just me or is half of this list on here simply because people can't find a use for them if it doesn't beat down the enemy to their ultimate satisfaction or it tends to work where they don't see it in the heat of battle so they think it doesn't happen at all?

[Bigdawg13]

It's not you.  Half the list (generalization) is due to people misunderstanding game mechanics.  The other half though, is due to bugs or just poorly implemented abilities.  And some stuff is just a pain, especially considering the 8 slot limit.  Sure I can find a use for blessed blades, but that doesn't mean it deserves a spot in my bar. 

[berelinde]

Blizzard, without a doubt. This is a top tier spell. Does it do *anything*?

 

Actually, you could increase the damage mage spells do across the board by 100% and they would still not be overpowered. Except for the KE which is (delightfully) broken, mages really got a serious nerf this game.

[Reptillius]

I don't know that they did get a nerf in this game.  I mean maybe I'll feel different once I get into my rogue playthrough but at this point my mages are by far mopping up most of the stuff on the battlefield.

[Bigdawg13]

I don't know that they did get a nerf in this game.  I mean maybe I'll feel different once I get into my rogue playthrough but at this point my mages are by far mopping up most of the stuff on the battlefield.

 

My rogues kick serious butt, but that doesn't mean that caltrops deserves a place on my bar.  There are plenty of good spells, but there are also ones that are seriously broken or confusing.  Consider the Rift Mage weakness + shock.  Sure you can just rub your face up an down the keyboard and spam abilities, it doesn't mean it makes stonefist suddenly start working as an impact detonator, or that boss you put shocked on and now you can no longer get mana regen ala weakness.  

[Reptillius]

most of my stuff doesn't survive long enough for me to use a detonator on them and I don't run out of mana. I spend more time waiting on certain cooldowns and have taken what passives I could find to make that less of an issue.  Most things don't survive a good static cage and aoe or energy barrage volley.

 

And of course dragons take longer if you pull a dumb move like I have and forget they are mostly fire based and use a fire staff against them.

 

 

Also keep in mind that it seems like a couple of the starter spells seem to be almost designed to be replaced over time for bigger and better things.  Caltrops is kind of one of those types of moves.  It's in there almost as if it's just a stepping stone move until you get along to something better. Great when your low level and fairly weak and need something to help you get away. But as you level up the enemies don't even usually make it to you anymore between the tanks having learned an array of taunts and the sheer amount of damage you do.  not to mention better defensive maneuvers to take as you get leveled up.

[Bigdawg13]

most of my stuff doesn't survive long enough for me to use a detonator on them and I don't run out of mana. I spend more time waiting on certain cooldowns and have taken what passives I could find to make that less of an issue.  Most things don't survive a good static cage and aoe or energy barrage volley.
 
And of course dragons take longer if you pull a dumb move like I have and forget they are mostly fire based and use a fire staff against them.

I agree that once you get to level 20+ things die so fast it doesn't really matter anymore.  But when I first get to skyhold, on nightmare, things do not die that fast.  On hard, I used focus abilities rarely, maybe once or twice in several hours.  On nightmare I use them every other fight.  
 

Also keep in mind that it seems like a couple of the starter spells seem to be almost designed to be replaced over time for bigger and better things.  Caltrops is kind of one of those types of moves.  It's in there almost as if it's just a stepping stone move until you get along to something better. Great when your low level and fairly weak and need something to help you get away. But as you level up the enemies don't even usually make it to you anymore between the tanks having learned an array of taunts and the sheer amount of damage you do.  not to mention better defensive maneuvers to take as you get leveled up.

 

Not always true.  Look at frost.  Arguably the two best abilities in the entire tree are on the very top.  Blizzard, which should be the pièce de résistance of frost, sucks except for a few rare cases (one being high level rift mage and another being a cryomancer).  People only take caltrops to get to 'looked like it hurt' passive.  Then there is electricity.  Barrage is nice as is static cage, but the middle one (can't remember the name) sucks.  Too much mana for too low damage.  Mind Blast supposedly is a crap ability.  I'm pretty sure throwing knives sucks.  I'd like to agree that the further in the tree, the better things are.  But with bugs and poor spell descriptions (or down right incorrect/invalid ones) it's like navigating a mind field.  You need a "Dummies for Bioware Game Mechanics" book to truly take advantage of all the nuances in the game.

 

I think threads like this are great, because we can always post what seems to not work.  As long as we go back and read responses, we might learn something.  Consider the damage upgrades for dispel (both templar and mage).  It's nice to know they only effect barriers.  Same goes with the barrier boost...only works if you dispel a barrier.  If you dispel poison, no barrier.  You might be thinking "this isn't working" so you come post here.  And bam, you learn something new.

 

I love these forums.  Now, if I could only settle on a mage spec I can stop lurking and start leveling.

[Reptillius]

Lightning bolts great power is not in it's damage. It's in the fact that it can be a hell of a group CC by knocking larger groups down.  The damage can also ramp up nicely if you can get a lot of things close to your bigger target.

 

there is also the fact that Paralyze works on some things that can't be stunned or held by Static cage and PotA. (though a fair bit of bosses and dragons are still immune).  So while the damage can seem lackluster. Part of it's real use is in how you put it to work.

 

And Mind Blast works a bit differently than many are used to from the first two games.  It used to be that unless you were solo'ing you could run in. Blast that thing off and basically be ignored because you wiped out all threat that they had on you which isn't true anymore.  it reduces a bit but doesn't mean it gets rid of all of it. and it doesn't mean you won't immediately do things that won't get them to go after you again.  But it can be a good detination source. Specially when combined with something that will apply statuses in close proximity to yourself.  like say an ice mine your using for the armour bonus that goes off when an enemy gets too close.

 

Throwing Blades could be a little more interesting(perhaps a bit higher damage) for it's position but once it's upgraded it can be several ranged hits on an opponent on a melee character for example.  Granted there are often other abilities that we want more but that is always going to be the case until somebody shows us a stellar build that uses abilities in ways we didnt' expect.  So any dual wielder is going to want all those monster close up hits and archers don't seem to touch that tree quite that much anyway In the builds I've looked at.

 

But at the same time I'm not saying all the starter spells are lackluster and meant to be replaced. I just said some of them. I've also said that it seems like some of the spells making these lists are not because they under-perform. They seem to make the list because they simply do not have a maximum damage potential to peoples liking but they may have other affects that can prove useful if your willing to sacrifice a bit of that damage that some people may desire and others may not.

[Bigdawg13]

I agree some people misunderstand the abilities.  But that's why these threads exist.  It's an opportunity to learn.  That being said lighting bolt is too expensive for what it does.  Mind Blast has no place with an 8-slot limit.  

 

I think a lot of these niche spells suck because of the 8-slot limit.  No one advocates lightning bolt because of this.

[Tharkun]

 Mind Blast supposedly is a crap ability.  I'm pretty sure throwing knives sucks.  

 

Actually I am a fan (ha) of throwing knives.  It is a five (tooltip is wrong) hit ranged ability for my DW rogue.  It applies a 20% sunder and is excellent for proc'ing on-hit abilities.  I am running a mercy killing rogue in a team designed to produce panic (Viv and Dorian both with Wall of Fire).  It does reasonable damage on it's own but for me the benefits are:

5 hits to proc:

1. Look like it hurt - 15 stamina/crit
2. Cheap Shot - 20% stacking sunder/crit (in addition to the one from the ability)
3. on hit  hidden blades.  I plan on running both the 4 hit and 5 hit version.

I almost always crit on all 5 because Rogue.  Mercy Killing, Sneak Attack and Knife in the Shadows plus gear means lots of crits.  I actually focus on crit damage in offensive leather and dex in utility leather.  My team produces so much panic/fear that it is nuts.  I use knockout powder too and then pop it by using the attack my target button.  That generally means a mage will hit the slept target with Immolate or Cass will spell purge it.  Nightmare BOOM and the target is now feared instead of slept.

 

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent but my 8 skills includes Throwing Knives and Knockout Powder.

[Bigdawg13]

Actually I am a fan (ha) of throwing knives.  It is a five (tooltip is wrong) hit ranged ability for my DW rogue.  It applies a 20% sunder and is excellent for proc'ing on-hit abilities.  I am running a mercy killing rogue in a team designed to produce panic (Viv and Dorian both with Wall of Fire).  It does reasonable damage on it's own but for me the benefits are:

5 hits to proc:

1. Look like it hurt - 15 stamina/crit
2. Cheap Shot - 20% stacking sunder/crit (in addition to the one from the ability)
3. on hit  hidden blades.  I plan on running both the 4 hit and 5 hit version.

I almost always crit on all 5 because Rogue.  Mercy Killing, Sneak Attack and Knife in the Shadows plus gear means lots of crits.  I actually focus on crit damage in offensive leather and dex in utility leather.  My team produces so much panic/fear that it is nuts.  I use knockout powder too and then pop it by using the attack my target button.  That generally means a mage will hit the slept target with Immolate or Cass will spell purge it.  Nightmare BOOM and the target is now feared instead of slept.

 

Sorry, that was a bit of a tangent but my 8 skills includes Throwing Knives and Knockout Powder.

 

You are correct.  I've been toying around with an artificer and have come to better understand the value of abilities with multiple hits.  I don't know why it wasn't more obvious considering how much I value Energy Barrage for the same thing.  Abilities with multiple hits really synergize well with weapon mastercrafts (that work off on-hit) and passives that work off multiple hits.  Spinning blades and throwing knives are quite valuable from this perspective.

[Spellbound7]

I have a question about Firewall. I've tried using it but it doesn't feel like it's doing much damage. Is there anyone who uses that spell?

[Tharkun]

I have a question about Firewall. I've tried using it but it doesn't feel like it's doing much damage. Is there anyone who uses that spell?

I use wall of fire on my support mages run by AI.  This is a support spell and I value it because it does OK damage at 200% weapon damage per tick AND panic in a large persistent AOE.  I don't tend to cast this myself.  

Benefits:

• Dorian is one of my support mages and panic/fear means the entire team gets bonus damage on those targets. 15% party damage buff.
• Panic/Fear is rarely resisted and a persistent AOE that reapplies panic is awesome control.  This keeps my team healthy.
• Wall of Fire is part of how I deal with stealthed enemies that we are waiting to come out and play.  It doesn't do friendly fire damage so you can just drop it on the team and it will help flush Shadows or Prowlers out.  Unfortunately those guys are immune to panic but the dot will get them.  I also drop Fire Mines.

On my Rogue play through I have both Viv and Dorian with Wall of Fire.  It often results in X mark the spot spell effects which is amusing to me and no one really takes any damage from enemies due to the control.  FYI If Dorian gets hurt I don't bother to heal him.   His passives will take care of it the next time we polish off an easy group and if he dies his simulacrum keeps going.  I also load him with heal on kill.  He can self revive via his simulacrum killing stuff.

 

Basically I have a love affair with Wall of Fire.  Oh and it is great pre-skyhold.  On the hard/nightmare I can't get through the assault on haven without wall of fire. 

[Spellbound7]

Hmm, interesting. I always use fire mine to deal with rogues, though. I guess if I ever go for a Nightmare playthough I'll look up builds for it.

[Bigdawg13]

Spike trap works well to counter rogues as well.

[Reptillius]

Firewall is an effective area control with a CC that a lot of people love.  not because of overwhelming damage. But because it helps a lot to control enemies. Specially in places with choke points and such.  In Single Player it is a good solid spell.  In MP for the character choices that have it there. Most see it as a must have powerhouse.

[Brainfist]

-Every active abilty from the reaver tree. In my eyes you have to loose to much health to actually gain a signifant amount of dps

-Crappling hook. Unfortunatley you have to skill it for the Battlemaster tree. A DD-Warrior should be at the front slaughtering enemies, not pick a single enemy out of the group.

-Parade. Except for the parade the rogue has no real face to face combat ability, so why would you want to block enemies attack?

-Pommel Strike. It is semi-usefull in the early game, but has the huge problem, that many enemies are immune to beeing knocked out and against weker enemies it's wasted stamina.

[Matth85]

Every active abilty from the reaver tree. In my eyes you have to loose to much health to actually gain a signifant amount of dps

 

Mid-late game you got enough defense to avoid losing too much health. Not to mention you can heal yourself. Not useless -- but it's a particular playstyle.

 

-Crappling hook. Unfortunatley you have to skill it for the Battlemaster tree. A DD-Warrior should be at the front slaughtering enemies, not pick a single enemy out of the group.

 

That's why you get it -- to frab stuff INTO the front line. Grab archer/mages and cleave them down with the melee enemies. 

 

Pommel Strike. It is semi-usefull in the early game, but has the huge problem, that many enemies are immune to beeing knocked out and against weker enemies it's wasted stamina.

 

Perhaps a 2h warriors best ability pre-Reaver. Almost instant, high damage, stuns and low cost. Warriors are not limited by stamina -- Only rogues are. You want to use as many abilities as possible, and pommel strike is among the best ones.

[Silversmurf]

 

Flank Attack is fantastic when it works. Unfortunately, it does NOT WORK ON UNEVEN TERRAIN. So frustrating.

 

The elevation is screwed up in this game.

 

Just ask the Demon Commander that I "lock" on the long stairway in the stage 5 Palace.  He can only pop along a single step....  Well done Bioware

[Dieb]

Playing a Sabotage/Artificer Rogue is a lot of fun. I like archery the most and used to go for the classic "high damage / assassin" build, but ever since I started digging the Hunter in MP, I  completely changed my approach. Just because a skill's function isn't obvious at first, or indirect, doesn't mean it's useless.

 

I'm really just alternating between Hook & Tackle, Spike Trap, Throwing Blades, Leaping Shot and always keep everything in a Toxic Cloud.

 

Looked Like It Hurt in combination with Opportunity Knocks are probably the most "OP" Passives in the game - I'm always irritated when I'm playing another character and I sometimes can't use a skill whenever I want to. Throwing Blades & Leaping Shot at 50% crit chance basically charge themselves. The cooldown reduction also works for Fallback Plan while it's still active, so you're practically provided with an infinite second health bar, too.

 

I think that the Evasion Passive is not overwhelming, but when you think of all the measures Rogues have to survive anything absolutely unscathed, anything more would be way overkill.  If anything, they could have just left it out completely.

[Fireheart]

All of them.

[Bigdawg13]

-Every active abilty from the reaver tree. In my eyes you have to loose to much health to actually gain a signifant amount of dps

-Crappling hook. Unfortunatley you have to skill it for the Battlemaster tree. A DD-Warrior should be at the front slaughtering enemies, not pick a single enemy out of the group.

-Parade. Except for the parade the rogue has no real face to face combat ability, so why would you want to block enemies attack?

-Pommel Strike. It is semi-usefull in the early game, but has the huge problem, that many enemies are immune to beeing knocked out and against weker enemies it's wasted stamina.

 

I haven't played a reaver, so I can't comment on it.  I keep wanting to, but the play style does not look appealing to me.

 

Grappling hook + give them the boot is one of the best early skills a 2H can have.  Grappling hook + mighty blow does a tremendous amount of damage and is absolutely fun to use.  The only downside is not everything can be grappled. 

 

Pommel strike is actually quite useful.  Compare the 300% damage to the 75% from whirlwind on a single target.  Plus it is one of the few ways a 2H warrior can prep a cross-class combo.  It's cheap, good damage, short cooldown, crowd control, and setup for cross-class combo.  What is not to like?  You might say "oh you can't stun a dragon".  Well that goes for every cross class combo too.  Has the same problem as winter's grasp, fear, blah blah blah.  Except Pommel strike does really good damage.  Considering the higher damage on a 2H compared to a staff, it's equivalent to the damage you get from fade cloak on  KE.   Really good damage. 

 

Honestly the more I play the game, the more I find that a lot of the abilities have some really great uses but in niche builds.  Artificer really demonstrates the value of hook & tackle to me, as well as spinning blades and throwing knives.  Just fun to play.

[ushae]

Everything in the Winter tree, except perhaps Fade Step and Winter's Grasp. Everything else is just poor. Unbelievable how poorly designed that tree is.

[Bigdawg13]

I had a lot of fun with blizzard on my Rift Mage.  I could keep it going and still have max mana.  Plus it guaranteed ice armor.  I was as durable as a KE but had infinite mana.

[Reptillius]

the winter tree is actually very powerful for what it does. It's a battle field controlling tree with a damage augment component.  I have been thinking that when I do my necromancer playthrough it's going to be on an ice mage.  It's well built to be another way to make a mage dang near unkillable with little particular prep work other than the skill tree.