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[simplificationizer]

Bio basically grabbed what every BG2 player most hated about that game (irenicus dungeon) and made it 10x worse. So if you're not happy with the game, give it some time. It gets so much better the more you play it isn't funny.



I personally seriously hated the origin story for my first character (human mage): very drawn out, exceedingly dull and unepic. After that, I was suddenly paired with a bunch of complete strangers and was shocked by this. Who is this ugly fat guy in full plate, and why would I want to invest precious time to learn his crappy abilities? More importantly, why can't I kick him out? Terrible design. I thought they were real characters.



Once you get a full party with some REAL characters and can choose where to go (it takes a lot of game time, sadly), that's when the fun really begins. I am currently doing the ruins in the brecilian forest and I honestly can't remember having this much fun in a rpg since BG2.

[lummoxybez]

Sounds like I need to give the game a lot more play-time before I make a decision.

As I said, there's a lot to love about the game, but also one or two bits that are reminiscent of NWN2 for me.

Thanks for the replies though. Hopefully my next thread won't be so can-of-worm-tastic.

[TyroneTasty]

Kesica wrote...
I noticed my Me 2 has shipped and looks like
sheppard will be saving the galaxy again, Look, Bw designs great games
but this storyline of being the only person who can save everyone is
just getting old.

It's important in games that the player controls the hero as the hero shapes most of the decisions and events in the game. Otherwise you are relegated to following around some amazing guy as he makes huge choices and you just stare in awe at this amazing hero in cut scene after cut scene while all the time wishing that were you. Or perhaps they could have the hero turn to you every so often and say, "That's my choice, what do you think George?" In which case he'd be one indecisive (and crappy) hero.

Metal Gear Solid 2 sort of took this approach and most of the time you wondered why you were even there, in the end the reason you were there was completely asinine and nearly ruined the entire game, and would have, if it weren't for Colonel Campbell yelling about his need of scissors.

I personally seriously hated the origin story for my first
character (human mage): very drawn out, exceedingly dull and unepic.
After that, I was suddenly paired with a bunch of complete strangers
and was shocked by this. Who is this ugly fat guy in full plate, and
why would I want to invest precious time to learn his crappy abilities?
More importantly, why can't I kick him out? Terrible design. I thought
they were real characters.

The origin stories are my favorite parts to this game as they give you a lot of information about your character and the world you are in without having to rely on exposition. Going around and talking to people is an effective way of getting a feel for the world without having to rely on a codex or a 20 minute cutscene. It also helps you identify with your character more, at least it did for me as I found out about the plight of the Dalish on my first run through. The information I receieved in those first areas determined how I approached a lot of the choices I made later in the game. It's all basically foreshadowing and set up for a huge story. Without it there would be a lot less connection to the player's character and in a game as long and complex as this, I find that pretty important.

Modifié par TyroneTasty, 26 janvier 2010 - 01:43 .

[AnDr01d1988]

It seems to me that all those people out there demanding more freedom in RPGs did get something wrong about the nature of those games or the role the player has in such a game...
I mean, when playing a RPG you are like a director of a movie. The script has been written by someone else and you gotta stick to it more or less. Still you can give some cut scenes your own handwriting, but in the end the movie has to be similar to the script that was written.

Else it would be like Sims in a medieval setting, or like the game developers simply build an engine and a tool set and let the player build his own game... yeah well,  most people will get bored since there's no goal to achieve.
Or it would the uber-game, which is a simulation of real live in the game's setting, with every possible choice and every stone to turn around and use. But first this game would take centuries to develop, second it would only run on computers able to predict chaotic processes on a full sized planet in real time and third the most annoying thing in this game would be that it either take ages to load the game or you would have the funny pop up "Sorry this action isn't covered be the data on disk 356. Please switch to disk 1.289 to play on. Thank you!" appearing every now an then.

Seriously, do you still want to have something like this? Then go out on the streets--you can find it there: It's called real life.
You can dress up and play some stupid role you want to play and join the army--it's up to you...


And to the 'older games were so much more interesting, had so much more unique things about them' statement.
Well it's like fashion, books or music. Every time someone published, builds, writes, develops something new the will be some who say: "Wait, haven't I seen/heard/felt this before somewhere?!" This is normal. The human mind tries to find patterns even if there are none to be found. And it succeeds in most cases meaning that you get the feeling that it's similar to something else.
Another thing is that there isn't much left that nobody hasn't already thought about.


Games and especially RPGs are about beautiful pictures to see, fascinating stories to hear (even though these stories are almost always the same), interesting--imagined--characters to meet. Then you have a mission, a goal. And you get an award for achieving it. And maybe you even get different viewpoints to the story or different awards on different playthroughs like in DA:O.
That's about it. It's as simple as that and everyone who expects more could also expect to have an interesting discussion about Shakespeare's works with his/her car.

Modifié par AnDr01d1988, 26 janvier 2010 - 02:01 .

[Quill74Pen]

Kesica wrote...

I noticed my Me 2 has shipped and looks like sheppard will be saving the galaxy again, Look, Bw designs great games but this storyline of being the only person who can save everyone is just getting old.

If you want to play games where you can be an evil character, I suggest you purchase any of the Grand Theft Auto series of games. I understand that in those games, there's no such thing as a good character — at best, amoral.

There. Problem solved.

Quill74Pen

[lummoxybez]

I find it amazing that from half-a-dozen posts, some people have categorized me in several ways and none of those categories are accurate.



To reiterate, what I mainly dislike (so far) about DA is as follows :



1 - being railroaded along the plotline. I admit now that I haven't given the game long enough to make a full judgement on this yet. Thanks to those who encouraged me to persevere.

2 - the lack of interactable items within the pretty scenery. Hence the comparison with Oblivion. Believe me, I think Oblivion is a poor game, but at least you could pick up the scenery.

3 - forcing NPCs upon the party. Again, this is another point I'm willing to reevaluate later on once I've explored the world some more.



Anyhoo, as I said numerous times, I don't doubt that lots of people like the game. I didn't make the OP to trash the game, just to ask whether I'm doing anything wrong or whether I should jus tgive up on it now.

Thanks for the help to all.

[Paromlin]

David Gaider wrote...

It's fine to request, if you wish, but expressing disappointment that an apple orchard doesn't make oranges because you're so tired of apples now doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

So Bioware is an apple orchard that can produce only "hero saves the world" games? If it's so then it makes little sense indeed to suggest you try something different since it would go against your nature and beyond your capabilities.

[RangerSG]

Kesica wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Kesica wrote...
I noticed my Me 2 has shipped and looks like sheppard will be saving the galaxy again, Look, Bw designs great games but this storyline of being the only person who can save everyone is just getting old.

We billed Dragon Age as a "dark heroic fantasy" for a reason. You are a hero... an anti-hero, if you wish, but still a hero. If you're looking to play a villain, you are looking in the wrong place.

There is a pattern with all bw games. One being the PC has to always be a hero.

Another pattern for example is:

-Complete 4 areas before the landsmeet DAO
-Open 4 planets for the starforge KOTOR
-Open up 4 areas in neverwinter night to start chapter 2,
- JE , PC has to open 3 areas before  traveling  to capital. 1)damn, 2)thugs, 3) and the forest with the ghost/foxspirit


just saying its a pattern, the pc is always saving galaxy/realm/ whatever. It would be so fun to be something different.

Erm...as was noted. Complaining about what was promised on the box cover seems very weak to me. I get not wanting to be "the hero" in a game. But when the game says you're a hero, and you buy it, complaining about getting what you paid for is like saying you ordered a pizza and got a pizza and you're mad it's not spaghetti.

Second, the quest narrative as literature goes far beyond Bioware, or even fantasy and/or speculative fiction. So saying "Bioware always does this," I've read this line way too often. Here and on other forums. I'm not saying DA is a perfect game. It has flaws. I've agreed about some of them. But to say that 'only' Bioware does quest narratives is ludicrous. And to complain about the game being exactly what you were told it would be on the box cover even more so.

[David Gaider]

Paromlin wrote...
So Bioware is an apple orchard that can produce only "hero saves the world" games? If it's so then it makes little sense indeed to suggest you try something different since it would go against your nature and beyond your capabilities.

If we make apples, it's because we want to make apples. It's because we like apples and because there's a market for it. Just because you happen to like fruit doesn't mean you necessarily want apples, and pissily demanding that we make something more suitable to your delicate, refined palate -- whether it's in our capabilities or not -- seems to indicate you're missing the point.

We grow fine apples, here. Any time you're interested in an apple, come on by. We'd be happy to serve.

[Sacrificial Bias]

1 - being railroaded along the plotline. I admit now that I haven't given the game long enough to make a full judgement on this yet. Thanks to those who encouraged me to persevere.

To be honest, DA: O is one of the more open games I've played.  All you have to do is play any JRPG(Final Fantasy, Star Ocean) and you'll fully appreciate the meaning of "being railroaded along".

2 - the lack of interactable items within the pretty scenery. Hence the comparison with Oblivion. Believe me, I think Oblivion is a poor game, but at least you could pick up the scenery.

True enough, but both games run on different engines and thus do different things.  Oblivion is a mostly first-person RPG with little to no emphasis on party combat.  I also believe that Oblivion/Fallout 3 were unique in their level of environmental interaction aside from Dead Rising, so it's a little unfair to criticize because of this.

3 - forcing NPCs upon the party. Again, this is another point I'm willing to reevaluate later on once I've explored the world some more.

Technically, you can always find some way to kick out those NPCs if you don't like them.  But then, considering that each NPC in your party has countless HOURS of dialogue, I think it's a bit unreasonable to ask for more party members.  If I have a complaint at all, it's just that there could've been one more rogue and one more mage, rather than an endless muscle-fest(Alistair, Loghain, Sten, Oghren, and maybe Dog/Shale if you count them as warriors).

Again, I've found the story itself to be satisfying if a bit long.  The gameplay, bugs, and lack of customer support are where the real issues are.

[Monica21]

lummoxybez wrote...

I find it amazing that from half-a-dozen posts, some people have categorized me in several ways and none of those categories are accurate.

To reiterate, what I mainly dislike (so far) about DA is as follows :

1 - being railroaded along the plotline. I admit now that I haven't given the game long enough to make a full judgement on this yet. Thanks to those who encouraged me to persevere.
2 - the lack of interactable items within the pretty scenery. Hence the comparison with Oblivion. Believe me, I think Oblivion is a poor game, but at least you could pick up the scenery.
3 - forcing NPCs upon the party. Again, this is another point I'm willing to reevaluate later on once I've explored the world some more.

Anyhoo, as I said numerous times, I don't doubt that lots of people like the game. I didn't make the OP to trash the game, just to ask whether I'm doing anything wrong or whether I should jus tgive up on it now.
Thanks for the help to all.

Just a few thoughts:

1. You are railroaded in a sense, but no more than you are in Oblivion. No, you don't have go to that one town to meet Sean Bean, but that's generally what people did because that's the point. If by "railroading" you mean "I can't travel where I want to travel when I want to travel" then no, you can't. At least not until a certain point in the game and even then it's still very early on.

2. I'm not sure what you mean about interacting with the scenery. Elfroot is everywhere. I'm not sure if you're not seeing it, but you can pick it. You can't do anything with it except sell it unless you put points in one of your skills though. I don't know what kind of build you have, but it might not fit your character to waste skill points so you can use Elfroot.

3. You'll have plenty of time to get additional companions and there aren't many occasions where you have to take a companion with you. As it is, you need the people you have now. And for what it's worth, I enjoyed the companions if for nothing else than the banter between themselves.

And don't give up. As someone who's been in awe of Bethesda games and also been very disappointed by certain aspects of them, I hope you like this one.

[Paromlin]

David Gaider wrote...

Just because you happen to like fruit doesn't mean you necessarily want apples, and pissily demanding that we make something more suitable to your delicate, refined palate -- whether it's in our capabilities or not -- seems to indicate you're missing the point.

We grow fine apples, here. Any time you're interested in an apple, come on by. We'd be happy to serve.

Do you see anyone pissily demanding that you should make something else? I only see you pissily attacking people who suggest you *could* use a different story trope for a change, and I really can't see what's wrong with suggesting that. That's all.. no need to get worked up over it. As far as I'm concerned you can keep producing whatever you fancy (apples or coconuts or whatever) till the end of time.

[Monica21]

Paromlin wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Just because you happen to like fruit doesn't mean you necessarily want apples, and pissily demanding that we make something more suitable to your delicate, refined palate -- whether it's in our capabilities or not -- seems to indicate you're missing the point.

We grow fine apples, here. Any time you're interested in an apple, come on by. We'd be happy to serve.

Do you see anyone pissily demanding that you should make something else? I only see you pissily attacking people who suggest you *could* use a different story trope for a change, and I really can't see what's wrong with suggesting that. That's all.. no need to get worked up over it. As far as I'm concerned you can keep producing whatever you fancy (apples or coconuts or whatever) till the end of time.

BioWare does what BioWare does. If you're a gamer then you know what kind of game you can expect from them. When Bethesda got the rights to FO3 they said something to the effect of "we're going to make games the way we make them and not do a top-down isometric" or something similar. If you buy a Bethesda game then you know you're getting a sandbox game. I can suggest that they do something different all I want, but it won't change the final product or what they do for their next game.

It's like buying a DVD player and then complaining that it's not Blu-Ray.

Modifié par Monica21, 26 janvier 2010 - 02:41 .

[David Gaider]

Paromlin wrote...
Do you see anyone pissily demanding that you should make something else?

Err... yes? All the time. People buy bus tickets special to come here from the exotic fruit collective where they sit around and moan how they don't grow fruit like they used to in the old days.

I only see you pissily attacking people who suggest you *could* use a different story trope for a change, and I really can't see what's wrong with suggesting that. That's all.. no need to get worked up over it. As far as I'm concerned you can keep producing whatever you fancy (apples or coconuts or whatever) till the end of time.

Ah? I didn't realize the suggestions were so polite. It must be beyond my nature and capabilities to interpret it as such. My mistake.

Modifié par David Gaider, 26 janvier 2010 - 02:54 .

[Abriael_CG]

David Gaider wrote...
If we make apples, it's because we want to make apples. It's because we like apples and because there's a market for it. Just because you happen to like fruit doesn't mean you necessarily want apples, and pissily demanding that we make something more suitable to your delicate, refined palate -- whether it's in our capabilities or not -- seems to indicate you're missing the point.
We grow fine apples, here. Any time you're interested in an apple, come on by. We'd be happy to serve.

I'd say this response is perfect .
A company choses it's target, due to several elements that can include marketing, the talents involved, and yes, even personal taste.
It's pretty obvious that Bioware has chosen their target as those gamers that love heavily story-driven games with a strong heroic flavor. Given the response to their games (that sell by the millions, which is more than what most software houses can achieve), they seem to have chosen a target that responds very well to their talents.

Coming here and demanding them to change target because that target doesn't happen to be you is quite childish, and pretentious.
There are many software houses in the market. Bioware can't cover all the targets. if Bioware's games don't appease you, there are others around there that could.
It's really that simple.

Paromlin wrote...

Do you see anyone pissily demanding that you should make something else?

I see quite a few. You included [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Seriously, next time we'll see someone coming and demanding Bioware to produce an Imagine game for the DS, because, you know, their 6 years old daughter doesn't happen to like Dragon Age.

[MaliceDelight]

David Gaider wrote...

Paromlin wrote...
So Bioware is an apple orchard that can produce only "hero saves the world" games? If it's so then it makes little sense indeed to suggest you try something different since it would go against your nature and beyond your capabilities.

If we make apples, it's because we want to make apples. It's because we like apples and because there's a market for it. Just because you happen to like fruit doesn't mean you necessarily want apples, and pissily demanding that we make something more suitable to your delicate, refined palate -- whether it's in our capabilities or not -- seems to indicate you're missing the point.

We grow fine apples, here. Any time you're interested in an apple, come on by. We'd be happy to serve.

Every now and again i see you post David and the first thing that comes to mind is "How could you do it!? I play video games because they are not real life, wheres my damn happy ending!?" haha, but after reading that post all i can think to say is.......you are the man, that was probly one of the best things i've ever read from anyone.

-Malice- (little ninja face)

[Valmy]

simplificationizer wrote...

Bio basically grabbed what every BG2 player most hated about that game (irenicus dungeon) and made it 10x worse. So if you're not happy with the game, give it some time. It gets so much better the more you play it isn't funny.

I personally seriously hated the origin story for my first character (human mage): very drawn out, exceedingly dull and unepic. After that, I was suddenly paired with a bunch of complete strangers and was shocked by this. Who is this ugly fat guy in full plate, and why would I want to invest precious time to learn his crappy abilities? More importantly, why can't I kick him out? Terrible design. I thought they were real characters.

Once you get a full party with some REAL characters and can choose where to go (it takes a lot of game time, sadly), that's when the fun really begins. I am currently doing the ruins in the brecilian forest and I honestly can't remember having this much fun in a rpg since BG2.

Yep...once you get past Lothering...well it gets really nice.

I always sorta dread the whole 'Wilds-Ishal-Lothering' guantlet.

[lummoxybez]

I hope nobody thought I was demanding something from Bioware with regards to this game. I'm quite shocked by some of the responses here (from both sides of the argument), and have to say that some people are seriously over-reacting.

Writing an arsey post and then adding a smiley on the end (that is blatantly out of place) doesn't make it okay.

I also expect more professionalism from a staff member of Bioware.

[BeckShort]

They did a good job in adding vigor to the cliche. Bioware didn't break new storytelling ground, but they did a great service to a stale genre, which is a feat.

[Macadami]

Good apples, that are still made to be eaten by everyone...unlike other developers *coughIWcough* who poison them for half of their community just to appeal to others....just days before a game is released.

[TyroneTasty]

lummoxybez wrote...

I hope nobody thought I was demanding something from Bioware with regards to this game. I'm quite shocked by some of the responses here (from both sides of the argument), and have to say that some people are seriously over-reacting.
Writing an arsey post and then adding a smiley on the end (that is blatantly out of place) doesn't make it okay.
I also expect more professionalism from a staff member of Bioware.

Gaider is a writer, he's allowed to be eccentric.

[Paromlin]

Monica21 wrote...


It's like buying a DVD player and then complaining that it's not Blu-Ray.

Hahahahhaha <tummy hurts>
This is not even remotely like suggesting something on a game forum of a company that is "proud with the interaction they have with their fanbase" (or something similar).
I don't know how you managed to connect that with buying a product and complaining that it's not something entirely different.
And lets get real, suggesting to change the story trope is not something comparable to changing the industrial machinery needed to produce a different product. Even then.. nothing wrong with suggesting a company to modernize, is it?

What's your next comparison? Paying a trip to China and complaining you're not in Chicago?