210 réponses à ce sujet

[Primula Nightfall]

I am most likely going to get flamed for this thread, but I feel the need to share my opinion in order to confront my point of view with you guys.

 

It has been clear that BioWare titles, over the years, have been progressively promoting gender equality and sexual freedom.

 

We went from ME1 where you only had three choices (two straitght, one bisexual with Liara clearly being female-looking, thus definitely geared towards fanservice for male gamers), to ME2 where, again, all bisexual options were basically females, to ME3 where things went a bit more liberal.

 

The DA franchise has been more "gender-equal" since the start tho, with DA2 being absolutely bonkers with almost every companion being bisexual, with only one being available to female characters only.

With DA:I, people in Thedas keeps upholding the sexual identity confusion that characterizes the series' world. 

 

Now, this is all well and good - we are all aware about how....vocal some gamers are, especially female ones (or feminist ones), and I am definitely not against gender equality by any means. However, it feels to me that with DA things are starting to seriously sound way too forced.

 

What are the options for a male, straight Inquisitor? 

 

We have Cassandra, who is probably more manly in terms of attitude and character than other male companion in the game (with the exception of Blackwall, maybe); Cassandra represents the idea that women can be as strong, hard, and badass as men. Even her appearence is definitely manly and "militarised": short, hair, scars, strong voice, et cetera.

 

Then we have Josephine. She has definitely a more "kinder" character stereotype than Cassandra, but she is bisexual so even female characters can date her anyway (and she's not exactly "good looking" by average videogame standards).

 

Then...no one else. 

I'd like to point out how this game lacks a typical "female" romanceable companion, where by "female" i mean "possessing the typical characteristics of female characters" (think Merrill, Leliana, Morrigan, or Miranda if we want to go with ME). Sure, there is Josephine, but she is not even an actual companion. Hell, why leaving out Leliana as an option, seriously?

Seems to me that BioWare is kinda "forcing" male characters / players to choose (if they want, of course) a necessary "out of the box" approach, since as said there is no "stereotypical" female companion.

 

Now, please put down those pitchforks and torches I know you grabbed after reading my last paragraph and keep reading - because my point is, this issue does not apply to female characters / gamers. For them, there is:

Blackwall, typical "brooding" male hero, actually the "manlier" companion in the whole game (by "manly" i mean "representing the stereotypical male virtues and characteristics). He is straight.

 

Cullen, again a very typical "leader" hero, very handsome and very charismatic. Again, still straight.

 

Solas, for whoever prefers the underdog, introvert characters. And again, he is straight.

 

All other options are either homosexual or bisexual.

 

Special mentions go to Sera, who would have been the obvious fanservice option for males who decided to play a female Inquisitor...and for some reason BioWare decided to model her using a goblin as reference ending up resembling more a crack addict than an actual elf. 

On the other hand, for females who decided to play a male Inquisitor, who do we have? Dorian, who I managed to identify as homosexual literally the first time he appeared on screen while also being rather handsome, and Iron Bull, bisexual, which is yet again the stereotypical "yes, I am big and  strong and I maul dragons, but inside I am all sweet and fluffy".

 

 

In short, I believe that BioWare is dangerously inverting the trend we've been having in videogames so far - by putting more fanservice for female gamers rather than male gamers, not even striving for "equality" (which, again, I support), but catering more toward the female playerbase which is, at this point in time, most likely still in lower numbers but definitely more vocal.

 

It's also worth to mention the transexual debate with Krem, which I would have found more suited for a social commentary rather than a RPG about demons and dragons - again, it felt really forced.

 

As a side note, I would add that, statistically, it's probable that the majority of players are straight. For equality purposes, BioWare should have included MORE options for straight gamers (both male and female) and less bisexuals...but I understand that this saves a lot of developing time, so I can partly understand.

 

Ok, if you have finished with those ropes, feel free to throw me the torches and set me on fire. Please be quick :/

[Zered]

Who cares? I sure don't. In DA2 you could bang almost everyone - pepole still complained, No way Bioware can make everyone happy.

[Draining Dragon]

You're going to get flamed to hell for this post, but I agree with you.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

I'd just love to have a one decent romanceable option for heterosexuals.

[Nightshade715]

Why is it that these sort of discussions are always about romances? I certainly wouldn't call gender equality and a number of romance options for certain group of people same thing.

[Taleroth]

I'd just love to have a one decent romanceable option for heterosexuals.

And I'd love a decent romance option for Claudiablacksexuals.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Your post is good, sensible and is on point.

 

Bioware has been a company that has always striven for and been all about actual, proper, honest equality across the board...Except in this game...The double standards are so blatant...

 

It is funny, all the straight males are asking for is equal options with no double standards...Women get to enjoy their fantastical traditional hot masculine men...So if we are to be equal...then...Men should get to enjoy their fantastical traditional hot sexy feminine women...

 

But try suggesting that in this politically correct social justice white knighting forum and you get flamed, dismissed, hated on, shamed, etc...

 

The hypocrisy is mind boggling frankly...

[Chari]

You make it feel like every straight guy cares only about sex appeal

It's frankly offensive to women and men alike

Also, did you really just propose to make a fanservice lesbian LI? Really?

I'm straight and even I find this just stupidly offensive. Also, no LI is created from the beginning as a LI for a specific group. If you actually paid attention to Bioware's blogging you would know that firstly they create characters and only then they choose who will be a LI and what sexuality they will have. And Maker bless Bioware for such a reasonable and beautiful approach

[daveliam]

Thank you OP for creating this unique thread.  I've never seen this brought up before.  I'm glad that you took the time to search the first two pages of the sub-forum to make sure that there weren't already two or three or four identical threads before creating this one.  Top notch posting.  Top notch.

[Primula Nightfall]

Thank you OP for creating this unique thread.  I've never seen this brought up before.  I'm glad that you took the time to search the first two pages of the sub-forum to make sure that there weren't already two or three or four identical threads before creating this one.  Top notch posting.  Top notch.

Cheers man, thanks for bumping up my new and original thread. I appreciate that.

[Hadeedak]

*obligatory FemShep in ME3 joke*

 

It could always be worse!

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Of course every character ever made is a political decision, done to send a specific message to the audience  about gender and sexuality.

 

No writer ever created characters organically. It would be folly to assume anything different.

[Ynqve]

Thank you OP for creating this unique thread.  I've never seen this brought up before.  I'm glad that you took the time to search the first two pages of the sub-forum to make sure that there weren't already two or three or four identical threads before creating this one.  Top notch posting.  Top notch.

 

The snark is strong with this one.

 

Seriously though. If we all had a drink every time a thread like this pops up, the forum would be a much happier (and drunker) place. 

[Sriep]

Why is it that these sort of discussions are always about romances? I certainly wouldn't call gender equality and a number of romance options for certain group of people same thing.

 

Exactly. I thought it was going to be about Cullen bein outnumbered at the war table.

[Primula Nightfall]

You make it feel like every straight guy cares only about sex appeal

It's frankly offensive to women and men alike

Also, did you really just propose to make a fanservice lesbian LI? Really?

I'm straight and even I find this just stupidly offensive. Also, no LI is created from the beginning as a LI for a specific group. If you actually paid attention to Bioware's blogging you would know that firstly they create characters and only then they choose who will be a LI and what sexuality they will have. And Maker bless Bioware for such a reasonable and beautiful approach

 

I never said that, I am sorry if I expressed myself incorrectly. English is not my native language so I might make mistakes, from time to time.

But as I have explained, you can clearly notice how males are generally more good looking than females, if we judge using the typical canon of what the average person considers "handsome". 

Also, I did not "propose" anything. Lesbian LI has been in the game since Leliana, and I believe there are plenty of players who went for a female main character (without knowing the possible LI beforehand) and ending up bedding her. I see no issues with that, as I see no issues with a female gamer playing a male LI to romance Dorian. How is this offensive?

 

Of course every character ever made is a political decision, done to send a specific message to the audience  about gender and sexuality.

 

No writer ever created characters organically. It would be folly to assume anything different.

 

No, not "every character ever made". As said, it just feels like BioWare decided to go with the safe choice with this game, to avoid any possible feminist bashing that lately has been rather in vogue. That's all. I might be wrong tho - it's just my opinion.

 

The snark is strong with this one.

 

Seriously though. If we all had a drink every time a thread like this pops up, the forum would be a much happier (and drunker) place. 

 

Ok, I get it - sorry, ok? I admit I did not check. If you are bored with this subject, feel free to let the thread die. 

[bEVEsthda]

I lament the fact that the Hawke/protagonist-sexuality of DA2 wasn't kept for DA:I. It was the one good feature of DA2.

Pity.

Also, it seems, to me at least, as if some LIs are cast into somewhat the wrong role.  Just saying.

[Jaulen]

Your post is good, sensible and is on point.

 

Bioware has been a company that has always striven for and been all about actual, proper, honest equality across the board...Except in this game...The double standards are so blatant...

 

It is funny, all the straight males are asking for is equal options with no double standards...Women get to enjoy their fantastical traditional hot masculine men...So if we are to be equal...then...Men should get to enjoy their fantastical traditional hot sexy feminine women...

 

But try suggesting that in this politically correct social justice white knighting forum and you get flamed, dismissed, hated on, shamed, etc...

 

The hypocrisy is mind boggling frankly...

 

 

I'm just going to laugh at this statement.

 

Cullen? Hot? Not (to me at least). He's the most 'traditional' and he's okay looking, but hot? Nope.

Blackwall? Hot? Well, for an older man....sure....but he's not a hot traditional man....Look at that beard! Not traditionally sexy unless you are talking about the 1970's.

Solas? Hot? He's bald and squinty eyed, thankfully he no longer looks like Nick Cage....but again, not a hot traditional man. he looks like I could bench press him *shudders*

Iron Bull? Hot? *hork* He looks like a steer with droopy man-boobs.

 

 

And regarding Cass and her short hair, go read the military guides for female hair. Long flowy locks akin to Miranda would not be allowed (unless pinned up). Her style is perfect for her roll.

[TheDarkShape]

But try suggesting that in this politically correct social justice white knighting forum and you get flamed, dismissed, hated on, shamed, etc...

 

 

Because it's utterly silly.  Say silly things and people will call you out on them.

"Why aren't the women in this game girly enough?!?!"

[Chari]

I never said that, I am sorry if I expressed myself incorrectly. English is not my native language so I might make mistakes, from time to time.

But as I have explained, you can clearly notice how males are generally more good looking than females, if we judge using the typical canon of what the average person considers "handsome". 

Also, I did not "propose" anything. Lesbian LI has been in the game since Leliana, and I believe there are plenty of players who went for a female main character (without knowing the possible LI beforehand) and ending up bedding her. I see no issues with that, as I see no issues with a female gamer playing a male LI to romance Dorian. How is this offensive?

English isn't my mother tongue either

Also, Lelainna isn't lesbian, she is bisexual

You treat characters like pure sexy/not-sexy fanservice material. Such an approach is one of the reasons women in media are often treated like dolls and not people. This is a wrong approach, also, a cheap one. If you want to make a good story, treat your characters like people, not manequins

"Feminist bashing" is pretty justified considering all the sexy clothes and sexy-damsel-in-distress trend which is, well, pretty ancient. And insulting. And sexist

As I have already said - no LI is created just to be a LI. Firstly, they create characters, then they decide who will be LIs and who won't. Creating characters just for the sake of sexual fanservice is... well. cheap and bluntly bad. and I'm glad Bioware are better than this

This isn't a dating simulator after all

[Primula Nightfall]

 

And regarding Cass and her short hair, go read the military guides for female hair. Long flowy locks akin to Miranda would not be allowed (unless pinned up). Her style is perfect for her roll.

 

I don't think it was ever stated that Cassandra is "not fit for her role". it's definitely fitting. Still, that does not change the fact that her concept is the "strong, hard, soldier woman". Of course her role does not allow her to be Miranda. That's the whole point, in fact.

 

 

 

Because it's utterly silly.  Say silly things and people will call you out on them.

"Why aren't the women in this game girly enough?!?!"

 

 

It's the same argument that many feminist support, tho. "Why are the women in *insert game here* so feminine? We need stronger women!"

However, when it's feminist saying that, it's suddenly ok and not stupid.

[mikeymoonshine]

Why in the hell is this post so long? Half of it isn't even needed to make your point, it's just a weak attempt at trying to show that this isn't the same complaining we are hearing over and over again.   Well guess what, it is! 

[Primula Nightfall]

English isn't my mother tongue either

Also, Lelainna isn't lesbian, she is bisexual

You treat characters like pure sexy/not-sexy fanservice material. Such an approach is one of the reasons women in media are often treated like dolls and not people. This is a wrong approach, also, a cheap one. If you want to make a good story, treat your characters like people, not manequins

"Feminist bashing" is pretty justified considering all the sexy clothes and sexy-damsel-in-distress trend which is, well, pretty ancient. And insulting. And sexist

As I have already said - no LI is created just to be a LI. Firstly, they create characters, then they decide who will be LIs and who won't. Creating characters just for the sake of sexual fanservice is... well. cheap and bluntly bad. and I'm glad Bioware are better than this

This isn't a dating simulator after all

 

Oh, come on. It's not like female audience in media is all like "Oh don't worry, appearances don't matter! The only thing that matters is the inside!". This is just a misconception. Women like handsome men as much as men like handsome women. Nothing new or mysterious here.

 

Anyway I don't want to get into a feminism / anti-feminism debate here as it would end up ugly, so I will stop here.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Because it's utterly silly.  Say silly things and people will call you out on them.

"Why aren't the women in this game girly enough?!?!"

 

So its perfectly fine for Cullen, a templar who has been through, quite frankly a lot of shite, look like a male model with a 21st century trimmer to given himself that 5'o clock shadow ?

 

So it is perfectly fine for Blackwall, a tough, lone wolf warrior, to have a beard that looks like it was trimmed in a salon and waxed and a face that looks baby smooth ?

 

It is perfectly fine for these men to look like this...The men who are love interests...There is no argument about realism there...

 

But try suggesting that Cassandra, who is a warrior herself, should have a nice face without scars, much like she did in Dawn of the Seeker...and you get a virtual angry mob, full of righteous social justice hypocrisy, ready to accuse you and shame you that you on the trumped up made up charges that do not find Cassandra attractive...Even though in reality all you want is for her to get the fantastical warrior treatment that Cullen and Blackwall got...

 

Talk about hypocrisy...