210 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

So here is a question. Why is a stereotypically feminine woman so important?

 

There are plenty of women who have masculine features, mannerisms or personalities that are generally considered more masculine than feminine. Anyone who has come into contact with multiple women should know this, women and men do not rigidly stick to gender roles even when society conditions them too. This has nothing to do with sexuality or really even what gender should be, it's more about flaws in our society and how we push people when they don't need to be pushed.

 

As far as I can tell in the real world this generally isn't some massive barrier for women when it comes to relationships. Most men in this day and age are not going to dump their girlfriend because she doesn't wait at the kitchen sink pining for him or because she doesn't look like a Disney princess. Or maybe they do and my experience of straight men is just wrong, maybe I give them more credit than they deserve, I dunno. 

[msman76]

Ignoring the romance problem, where the hell are all the Desire Demons?

I'm getting really tired of this upcoming apparent SJW influence in BW's world building. Okay sure they put women in a bad light, objectifying their bodies but that's the point of the DD's. They are a symbol of the very core of lust in what we hold as humans, instead of completely wiping them from the story why not just make them shift gender depending on who's talking to them; ****, give them a bulge under there codpiece for all i care. It just doesn't make sense to remove what's been a central aspect of the DA world just because some people might get affended.

[Vasudeva]

I'm just going to laugh at this statement.

 

Cullen? Hot? Not (to me at least). He's the most 'traditional' and he's okay looking, but hot? Nope.

Blackwall? Hot? Well, for an older man....sure....but he's not a hot traditional man....Look at that beard! Not traditionally sexy unless you are talking about the 1970's.

Solas? Hot? He's bald and squinty eyed, thankfully he no longer looks like Nick Cage....but again, not a hot traditional man. he looks like I could bench press him *shudders*

Iron Bull? Hot? *hork* He looks like a steer with droopy man-boobs.

 

 

And regarding Cass and her short hair, go read the military guides for female hair. Long flowy locks akin to Miranda would not be allowed (unless pinned up). Her style is perfect for her roll.

Yea my feelings exactly, the males in DAO were way better IMHO

Besides Solas is off limits  unless you want to go elf, so technically he's not a 'full' choice as Cullen is not either open to all de races

[budzai]

Yeah, better not let the children see well written stories about gay characters. Think of the children! The CHILDREN!!!!

Also, your statistics on percentage of gay people is outdated. Of course, self-reporting data about a traditionally stigmatized and invisible construct might not be the most reliable. But if you are going to use it, you might want to update your facts.

But why are we talking about gay character? I thought this thread was about how oppressed the straight male gamer is because of Cassandra's jawline and Josephine's romantic nature......

I believe only in a statistic which was faked by me... I am sure LGBT people are a very very minority you know why? cuz I know none....

[cwm33]

You are all missing out on the worst atrocity in this whole under-representation argument, and that is the fact that in none of the dragon age games have we been given the option to romance a dragon.  I mean come in, the word DRAGON is right there in the title and we aren't able to try and seduce even one?  The dragon can be bisexual as well, I mean come on who's gonna argue with a dragon?  I just want to be able to gently stroke one, love it, and in the throes of passion make it shoot fireballs into the air.

 

Damn your oppression of my forbidden love.

 

Also I think Cass would get way more love if she didn't have them scars.  Needs more shield block!

[Taleroth]

You are all missing out on the worst atrocity in this whole under-representation argument, and that is the fact that in none of the dragon age games have we been given the option to romance a dragon.  I mean come in, the word DRAGON is right there in the title and we aren't able to try and seduce even one?  The dragon can be bisexual as well, I mean come on who's gonna argue with a dragon?  I just want to be able to gently stroke one, love it, and in the throes of passion make it shoot fireballs into the air.

 

Damn your oppression of my forbidden love.

 

Also I think Cass would get way more love if she didn't have them scars.  Needs more shield block!

I still want to romance a talking sword.

[Myusha123]

Aaand again with insults. Seriously, is this the only way to debate? If you believe I am ignorant then you'd better stop trying to reason with me, as it would be a lost cause.

 

But I wil answer your question - I mentioned "perfect white skin" and "long curly hair" because any woman (or man) covering that role would hardly manage to have either of them. In fact, it's more likely you will be sun-tanned, scarred, with short practical hair like Cass.

 

Is that clearer, now?

It wasn't an insult. I'm implying that if skin color determined attractiveness to you, you'd probably be ignorant.  Which is one way to interpret your original statement. I was hoping it wasn't the case.

Truth be told, Cassandra and Josephine don't appeal to you. That doesn't mean their romance arcs still exist, and still appeal to people outside of you. Claiming equality is bullshit though. You hopefully know this though. 

 

[msman76]

You are all missing out on the worst atrocity in this whole under-representation argument, and that is the fact that in none of the dragon age games have we been given the option to romance a dragon.  I mean come in, the word DRAGON is right there in the title and we aren't able to try and seduce even one?  The dragon can be bisexual as well, I mean come on who's gonna argue with a dragon?  I just want to be able to gently stroke one, love it, and in the throes of passion make it shoot fireballs into the air.

 

Damn your oppression of my forbidden love.

 

Also I think Cass would get way more love if she didn't have them scars.  Needs more shield block!

Northern Hunter is a sexy beast.

[cwm33]

I still want to romance a talking sword.

 

Stay strong brother, our day will come when Bioware really stops stepping on the little guy.

[BabyFratelli]

Yeah, alright. I am childish for stating that Sera is ugly. All right. She is beautiful, then. Now I am suddely a child no more.

Also, I did not "bash" at anything. I just stated my opinions. I never said that those characters suck as a whole. I really like both Cass and Josephine. I liked Sera at the start but she's becoming a bit too annoying lately. 

My opinions on their appearance and / or femininity was not at all related to their quality as character as a whole.

 

Thanks for the insults tho, I see that as usual they are needed to fortify arguments. A skill I never learned, sadly.

 

If your opinions on their appearances were unrelated, then you wouldn't have mentioned them at all.

 

Also, I picked my words carefully so that I would only actually be directly insulting you by calling you childish. Something which I genuinely think you are. If you would rather focus on that than my argument, then that's your happy decision. I've said my thoughts, as have many others, and you have used circular logic in responding to almost every single one of them. If you want to have a proper discussion you can PM me and I'll respond later. Pinky promise I'll be less snarky.

[Primula Nightfall]

So here is a question. Why is a stereotypically feminine woman so important?

 

There are plenty of women who have masculine features or mannerisms and personalities that are generally considered masculine. Anyone who has come into contact with multiple women should know this, women and men do not rigidly stick to gender roles even when society conditions them too. This has nothing to do with sexuality or really even what gender should be, it's more about flaws in our society and how we push people when they don't need to be pushed.

 

As far as I can tell in the real world this generally isn't some massive barrier for women when it comes to relationships. Most men in this day and age are not going to dump their girlfriend because she doesn't wait at the kitchen sink pining for him or because she doesn't look like a Disney princess. Or maybe they do and my experience of straight men is just wrong, maybe I give them more credit than they deserve, I dunno. 

 

Of course most people don't do that. I, for one, don't do that. But from being a "Disney Princess in the kitchen" and being a "Sandor Clegane with shorter hair and no beard" there are plenty of middle grounds. Of course, before you jump on me, please note that those two examples are intentionally exaggerated.

 

Fact is, men like women. Women like men. Straigh men and women, generally, tend to be attracted by characteristics typically associated to the opposite sex. I can't know for sure, but I don't see how (generally speaking, as usual) women would be attracted by a male Miranda. And I mean literally. a male Miranda.

 

As said, being "feminine" is not something that should be considered "bad". I feel that nowadays, women need to necessarily show to everyone that they are "as strong as men, and do the same things men do". Why? Why this "envy"? It's like being feminine is shameful -.-

[AresKeith]

One is a former professional fighter.

 
The other is a model (according to this forum)
 

 
Guess which one almost every man would go for.
 
Men love women who look beautiful and feminine, it's not exactly rocket science.

 
I think they both look beautiful ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

So here is a question. Why is a stereotypically feminine woman so important?
 
There are plenty of women who have masculine features, mannerisms or personalities that are generally considered more masculine than feminine. Anyone who has come into contact with multiple women should know this, women and men do not rigidly stick to gender roles even when society conditions them too. This has nothing to do with sexuality or really even what gender should be, it's more about flaws in our society and how we push people when they don't need to be pushed.
 
As far as I can tell in the real world this generally isn't some massive barrier for women when it comes to relationships. Most men in this day and age are not going to dump their girlfriend because she doesn't wait at the kitchen sink pining for him or because she doesn't look like a Disney princess. Or maybe they do and my experience of straight men is just wrong, maybe I give them more credit than they deserve, I dunno. 

I don't think anyone said she had to be traditionally feminine, they want her to be feminine by modern day standards, but me I just want a romancable option that doesn't look like a man or isn't a Disney princess. and if thats wrong and sexist well I'm wrong and sexist.

[aphelion4]

It's not like the guys the girls get are any better. Cullen is the only truly conventionally "hot" one.

• Iron Bull has a stupid body shape and a tiny head. (Freddie Prinze Jr tho )
• Blackwall is older and the shape of his beard is a turn off.
• Solas, while having an attractive face, is bald. Which is also a turn off. Do you see how his romance turns out as well? XD

And then gay men have Dorian (hot face, nasty mustache) and IB. Sera isn't exactly a super model either. So really, everyone has their share of "ugly" options.

 

Anyway, suck it up. If we can romance IB/Blackwall/Solas and still find their personality endearing while not being a fan of their looks, then you can bang Cass/Josie. (idk what you're smoking tho, Cass is gorgeous. Dat jaw and eyebrow game).

[Myusha123]

Of course most people don't do that. I, for one, don't do that. But from being a "Disney Princess in the kitchen" and being a "Sandor Clegane with shorter hair and no beard" there are plenty of middle grounds. Of course, before you jump on me, please note that those two examples are intentionally exaggerated.

 

Fact is, men like women. Women like men. Straigh men and women, generally, tend to be attracted by characteristics typically associated to the opposite sex. I can't know for sure, but I don't see how (generally speaking, as usual) women would be attracted by a male Miranda. And I mean literally. a male Miranda.

 

As said, being "feminine" is not something that should be considered "bad". I feel that nowadays, women need to necessarily show to everyone that they are "as strong as men, and do the same things men do". Why? Why this "envy"? It's like being feminine is shameful -.-

Gender roles, etc instill shame in femininity as a whole. Male and Female can't express said 'traits' but females can with less bullshit. Basically sex-related bullshit. 
And honestly TRAITS YOU FIND ATTRACITVE. ARE SUBJECTIVE. 

Some people might like butch strong women. Because they can hold their own, and aren't purse-carrying girls obsessed with fashion or something. They can talk football, and whatnot. Or maybe a guy likes someone whose into fashion and helps him keep on top of his game, instead of that ugly redneck.  Or maybe it doesn't matter what traits you exhibit, as long as you're cool to talk to. 

How is that hard to comprehend?

[Vasudeva]

OHH HOOO 

 

Mods would go SUCH a long way to giving everyone their conception of the perfect romance, Gods if someone could convince someone to just release a tool set. Not gonna happen though.

All  the companions have their plus and minus.  Really so many of the female endings just suck for want of a better word.  And in this series always have.  I think the dialogues, and interactions are awesome, their personalities great, more than just looks

[Chari]

Of course most people don't do that. I, for one, don't do that. But from being a "Disney Princess in the kitchen" and being a "Sandor Clegane with shorter hair and no beard" there are plenty of middle grounds. Of course, before you jump on me, please note that those two examples are intentionally exaggerated.

 

Fact is, men like women. Women like men. Straigh men and women, generally, tend to be attracted by characteristics typically associated to the opposite sex. I can't know for sure, but I don't see how (generally speaking, as usual) women would be attracted by a male Miranda. And I mean literally. a male Miranda.

 

As said, being "feminine" is not something that should be considered "bad". I feel that nowadays, women need to necessarily show to everyone that they are "as strong as men, and do the same things men do". Why? Why this "envy"? It's like being feminine is shameful -.-

I would be

Feminine men, masculine men, andro men... it is all about an attitude, voice, a bit of looks (as long as a person doesn't look like a meatglob with absolutely twisted face), personality, actions, "aura" he emits

Heck, I find the Architect attractive

[Primula Nightfall]

It wasn't an insult. I'm implying that if skin color determined attractiveness to you, you'd probably be ignorant.  Which is one way to interpret your original statement. I was hoping it wasn't the case.

 

 

I am sorry my statement could be misunderstood, then. However, while not my case, I fail to see how skin color can't be used to determine subjective attractiveness. Everyone has their tastes. This does not mean being racist as it would not be an objective statement but a subjective one.

 

If your opinions on their appearances were unrelated, then you wouldn't have mentioned them at all.

 

Also, I picked my words carefully so that I would only actually be directly insulting you by calling you childish. Something which I genuinely think you are. If you would rather focus on that than my argument, then that's your happy decision. I've said my thoughts, as have many others, and you have used circular logic in responding to almost every single one of them. If you want to have a proper discussion you can PM me and I'll respond later. Pinky promise I'll be less snarky.

 

Oh, gods. I have made my point clear enough in all my posts, while being continuously insulted and having my sentences deliberately misinterpreted - while I never insulted anyone in return since I find THAT quite childish (Oh snap, was this an insult? I am sorry). I don't feel the need to reiterate my point of view - if you are so interested or if you have doubts, I suggest you re-read everything starting from page 1. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Of course most people don't do that. I, for one, don't do that. But from being a "Disney Princess in the kitchen" and being a "Sandor Clegane with shorter hair and no beard" there are plenty of middle grounds. Of course, before you jump on me, please note that those two examples are intentionally exaggerated.

 

Fact is, men like women. Women like men. Straigh men and women, generally, tend to be attracted by characteristics typically associated to the opposite sex. I can't know for sure, but I don't see how (generally speaking, as usual) women would be attracted by a male Miranda. And I mean literally. a male Miranda.

 

As said, being "feminine" is not something that should be considered "bad". I feel that nowadays, women need to necessarily show to everyone that they are "as strong as men, and do the same things men do". Why? Why this "envy"? It's like being feminine is shameful -.-

 

Well actually men with female traits can be quite popular with women, that is part of the reason why we see a lot of them in games. It's game devs trying to appeal to women while also appealing to men. Being a combatant is already a masculine trait and being a warrior is even more stereotypically masculine. Femininity is fine but too much femininity for all the female companions would be unrealistic and it would feel artificial. 

 

Josephine is very feminine, Leliana is also quite feminine, Sera is sort of in the middle as is Vivienne (being feminine in looks but more masculine in personality) and Cassandra is the most masculine at least on the outside. Bioware doesn't hate femininity, they are just trying to create more interesting characters with more complicated personalities. 

[Catche Jagger]

[Solas]

It's not exactly the numbers people are complaining about, it's that neither of the het male romances are traditionally attractive. Cassandra is extremely masculine, Josie is average looking. Compare that to the classically beautiful Cullen and Blackwall, and you can see what people are saying. 

 

(And again to the people point out the lack of S/S options or the fact that some of the female options are race gated, S/S options and the Dwarven and Qunari race are used much less.)

Ugh, even when you bring in what is "traditionally" or "classically" attractive, personal opinion still has huge impact there. For example I would consider Josie classically attractive and Blackwall not classically attractive. So... yeah

[Primula Nightfall]

Gender roles, etc instill shame in femininity as a whole. Male and Female can't express said 'traits' but females can with less bullshit. Basically sex-related bullshit. 
And honestly TRAITS YOU FIND ATTRACITVE. ARE SUBJECTIVE. 

Some people might like butch strong women. Because they can hold their own, and aren't purse-carrying girls obsessed with fashion or something. They can talk football, and whatnot. Or maybe a guy likes someone whose into fashion and helps him keep on top of his game, instead of that ugly redneck.  Or maybe it doesn't matter what traits you exhibit, as long as you're cool to talk to. 

How is that hard to comprehend?

 

Point is, it feels like that the people who are shaming "femininity" more than anyone else are feminists themselves. If you notice, women feel "empowered" when they start covering the roles which were typically, since ages past, dominion of men. It's odd how the opposite does not happen. Men feel "empowered" when they do things typically associated with men. This is what baffles me. If I were a female, I would be proud to be female. I would not try "act like a man" to show everyone that I am "as strong as a man". That is already sexism since you are using men as comparison. 

 

But yeah we are getting sidetracked.

 

But hey, my gf plays Dark Souls, has short hair, always wears jeans and shoes with no heels. And I like her, a lot. Just to clarify that I am saying that only Barbie-like females are attractive. I never said that. However, even my gf agrees on the fact that Sera looks like a goblin. Go figure.

[Primula Nightfall]

Well actually men with female traits can be quite popular with women, that is part of the reason why we see a lot of them in games. It's game devs trying to appeal to women while also appealing to men. Being a combatant is already a masculine trait and being a warrior is even more stereotypically masculine. Femininity is fine but too much femininity for all the female companions would be unrealistic and it would feel artificial. 

 

Josephine is very feminine, Leliana is also quite feminine, Sera is sort of in the middle as is Vivienne (being feminine in looks but more masculine in personality) and Cassandra is the most masculine at least on the outside. Bioware doesn't hate femininity, they are just trying to create more interesting characters with more complicated personalities. 

 

I understand that there are women who like men with feminine traits, this is abundantly clear - at the same time, there are men who like women with masculine traits like Cass. Nothing wrong with that, as I have already stated, I am not debating tastes.

 

I just said, and I repeat, that there are NO straight "feminine women" (please try to get what I mean here, really, please) options in DA:I, while both Cullen and Blackwall represent straight "masculine men" options. 

That's all.

[ZoliCs]

Someone always gets the shaft.

In ME3 females had 2 staright and 2 lesbian option, while males had 5 straight and 2 gay options. Relative to that you have 0 reason to complain.

[Tideford]

Oh boy, what a thread.  And it does seem to be a taste thing.  Because Josie is femine to the bone.  Her romance is starting off to be pretty cool too. 

 

On the same note, did any of you play the 8 stories in SWTOR?  You think the options here can be tough.  You should have seen the outcry when female imperial agents had to romance a bug man........No there are no Nadia Grell's here, but the ones we have as straight males are just fine.  I plan on doing both Cass and Josie.