34 réponses à ce sujet

[YoJayWatsUrName]

Hello  I have been playing DA:I multiplayer since I first installed the game.  I haven't even played singleplayer at all.  Overall I believe the multiplayer is a very fun experience that does need a few patches to fix some bugs and other things.  I do however have one complaint,  and that is how the RNG (random number generator for those who don't know), Item levels, and rarity. works in this game. 

 

From my experience the game is 100% based on luck when it comes to getting gear/items to make your characters better. 

 

So what that means is there can be a player that plays one routine match,  opens a small chest, and gets a Item level 23 Unique weapon

 

VS

 

Someone who has put in hundreds of hours and out of all the grinding, only has an item level 16 weapon. 

 

It is a neat concept but I do believe that it can be somewhat not fair.  A comparison I want to give for those that may know this, look at Diablo 3 the first year that it came out.  It's item drop system was the exact same as this one and what players did to level up was grind all day for gear, sell it in the auction house, and use all that gold to buy the gear they needed to make their characters stronger.  I don't know about those that played then but I didn't feel accomplished doing that at all. 

 

There are hardcore grinders playing this multiplayer right now (myself included) that are trying as hard as they can to play on perilous difficulty and complete it with their favorite characters.  I feel that the way the game currently runs, some players will give up in the long run playing because simply, they don't have any luck when it comes to getting gear therefore killing the playerbase.  That is what killed diablo's playerbase at first, but after their item revamp of reducing RNG players came back to the game. 

 

So here is the suggestion I want to make to help endgame players have a better chance at end game gear.  Remember the premimum spectre packs you could buy in Mass Effect 3's multiplayer and that it gave a higher chance for players to earn ultra rare gear.  Well If the Large Chest in the store increased it's price to 1800 gold, and it awarded 3 potions and 3 items just like the medium chest BUT you have a much higher chance at getting gear item level 18 and higher, I believe that would completely solve the issue.  There is still a grind aspect there, but players that put in the time get the gear they finally deserve.  What do you guys think about this idea, I hope I have made some good points in this suggestion, thanks for reading

 

UPDATE: Actually I would just leave the large chest alone and make another chest for 1800 gold

[UmmmOrochi]

My name is Orochi and I support this thread!

[kstarler]

I like the idea, but why increase the cost AND decrease the items included? Why not make it 5 and 5 at 1800GP, or 3 and 3 at 1200?

[YoJayWatsUrName]

Well actually I think leave the large chest alone and make another chest for this suggestion.  The reason why I say three is because if it was five, I beleive players would gear up a little too quick then bore out that way.  I'm just trying to suggest a way where you DO have to grind some but when you do it you get a fair payoff.  I just feel 5 would be too much and after a month of hardcore grinding you would have all the gear you want and have no reason to grind

[Naitaka]

Double Post

[Naitaka]

Not happening because they want you to actually use their micro-transaction. They'll try to keep as much RNG as possible and make people frustrated enough to spend real money to try to get what they want.

[Shinnyshin]

While I like the idea, wasn't the crafting system touted as the way to mitigate rng through grinding? Which I think it would've done if not for the double rng levels (rarity AND level) in this as opposed to Me3's rarity only system. Why not expand crafting to deal with this and add another mat sink? The ability to Spend a large # of mats to increase an item's level would, in my opinion, add a lot to the game's gear system. Especially since some uniques seem very level locked, meaning you'll never be able to make full use of any version of them.

[YoJayWatsUrName]

While I like the idea, wasn't the crafting system touted as the way to mitigate rng through grinding? Which I think it would've done if not for the double rng levels (rarity AND level) in this as opposed to Me3's rarity only system. Why not expand crafting to deal with this and add another mat sink? The ability to Spend a large # of mats to increase an item's level would, in my opinion, add a lot to the game's gear system. Especially since some uniques seem very level locked, meaning you'll never be able to make full use of any version of them.

 

Hmm interesting. But i was wondering instead of crafting to increase item level.  how about crafting to increase rarity?

[UmmmOrochi]

Not happening because they want you to actually use their micro-transaction. They'll try to keep as much RNG as possible and make people frustrated enough to spend real money to try to get what they want.

 

Actually that is a lie because mass effect has the system that OP is usggesting 5 Free DLCs wonder where that money came from

[TurianRebels]

I don't know about those that played then but I didnt feel achieved doing that at all.

 
Could you please use a different word? Like gratified. Gratified is a feeling. Achievement is not a feeling.
 
/DorianMode

Also, I agree.

[Sir Jessku]

What about accomplished?

[YoJayWatsUrName]

ugh is that better??? we good???

[Naitaka]

Actually that is a lie because mass effect has the system that OP is usggesting 5 Free DLCs wonder where that money came from

 

If that were the case, why isn't it the same as the ME3 system in the first place? This is basic psychology that EA's very good at.They shape consumer behavior toward a desirable outcome by adding in small increment to make it easier to accept. They're never going to go back to ME3's system because that's only a step in making player more used to the idea of micro-transaction in a full priced title.

[Shinnyshin]

If that were the case, why isn't it the same as the ME3 system in the first place? This is basic psychology that EA's very good at.They shape consumer behavior toward a desirable outcome by adding in small increment to make it easier to accept. They're never going to go back to ME3's system because that's only a step in making player more used to the idea of micro-transaction in a full priced title.

...isn't this system virtually identical if you treat level 20+ uniques as ultra-rares, which they basically are, and add a bit more customization through a crafting mechanic? Me3 had the exact same kind of frustration (rare ammo yay) and the same microtrans action model that also didn't help you bypass rng.

[UmmmOrochi]

If that were the case, why isn't it the same as the ME3 system in the first place? This is basic psychology that EA's very good at.They shape consumer behavior toward a desirable outcome by adding in small increment to make it easier to accept. They're never going to go back to ME3's system because that's only a step in making player more used to the idea of micro-transaction in a full priced title.

 

First have you played ME3MP because if you haven't then your input is worthless. Second I get it EA is the devil. Third this MP is not a horde based shooter. Bioware not EA try to explore different options based on the nature of the game. It's a dungeon crawler. I can see what succeeded and what failed based on both iterations of MP they created in their games. This isn't the only company to have a winning system and try something different. Gearbox did the same with BL1 and BL2. I love how people keep mentioning Micro transaction. Yet I haven't spent a dime on MP yet except base game price But I am just as geared and viable as anyone out there.

[UmmmOrochi]

...isn't this system virtually identical if you treat level 20+ uniques as ultra-rares, which they basically are, and add a bit more customization through a crafting mechanic? Me3 had the exact same kind of frustration (rare ammo yay) and the same microtrans action model that also didn't help you bypass rng.

 

Your correct but it was a little more fine tuned and flexible. Based on the fact that you weren't defined to a single weapon. You could equip any weapon to any class. So a harder hitting gun was beneficial no matter what class you were playing 

[Naitaka]

...isn't this system virtually identical if you treat level 20+ uniques as ultra-rares, which they basically are, and add a bit more customization through a crafting mechanic? Me3 had the exact same kind of frustration (rare ammo yay) and the same microtrans action model that also didn't help you bypass rng.

 

Yes, it's totally the same here with large chest giving people 8 potions and 2 sub-level 10 items...The op already detailed the difference between the two and I agree with his assessment. 

 

First have you played ME3MP because if you haven't then your input is worthless. Second I get it EA is the devil. Third this MP is not a horde based shooter. Bioware not EA try to explore different options based on the nature of the game. It's a dungeon crawler. I can see what succeeded and what failed based on both iterations of MP they created in their games. This isn't the only company to have a winning system and try something different. Gearbox did the same with BL1 and BL2. I love how people keep mentioning Micro transaction. Yet I haven't spent a dime on MP yet except base game price But I am just as geared and viable as anyone out there.

 

Yes, I have played ME3MP not that it has anything to do with the validity of my opinion based on the fact we know about both system of reward. Also, I never called EA the devil, in fact, I think they're just doing what every smart business does. All that I said is that you'd be delusional to think that they'd go back to ME3's system when they're obviously working toward a goal that encourage spending on micro-transaction in their game. The fact you personally does not spend money on micro-transaction doesn't change the fact it exist.

[Shinnyshin]

 

Yes, it's totally the same here with large chest giving people 8 potions and 2 sub-level 10 items...The op already detailed the difference between the two and I agree with his assessment...

 

...All that I said is that you'd be delusional to think that they'd go back to ME3's system when they're obviously working toward a goal that encourage spending on micro-transaction in their game. The fact you personally does not spend money on micro-transaction doesn't change the fact it exist.

 

 

You keep saying this--but I actually think this system is at least as generous as ME3's if not more.  And what's more, it's premature to speculate on droprate frustration.  Thus the point my earlier post.  At the very least, it's the same with swapped terms (pots for consumables, 20+ Unique for UR, large chest for PSP/RP/AP).  So when you keep saying that they'd be fools to go back to the ME3 system, it reads like something out of an absurdist comedy sketch for those of us, like me, who consider this a functionally identical system with functionally identical pitfalls that really could've been ameliorated.  "They'd be fools to go back to the ways of the present, my good fellow!"

 

Either you're massively idealizing ME3's late-game (max Disruptor Ammo ahoy) or something's getting lost in translation with our arguments.

[Naitaka]

You keep saying this--but I actually think this system is at least as generous as ME3's if not more.  And what's more, it's premature to speculate on droprate frustration.  Thus the point my earlier post.  At the very least, it's the same with swapped terms (pots for consumables, 20+ Unique for UR, large chest for PSP/RP/AP).  So when you keep saying that they'd be fools to go back to the ME3 system, it reads like something out of an absurdist comedy sketch for those of us, like me, who consider this a functionally identical system with functionally identical pitfalls that really could've been ameliorated.  "They'd be fools to go back to the ways of the present, my good fellow!"

 

Either you're massively idealizing ME3's late-game (max Disruptor Ammo ahoy) or something's getting lost in translation with our arguments.

 

I assume you played ME3MP as well? You know how to optimize your spending by maxing out most if not all of the commons then move onto Veteran and then Spectre. There's a very clear and definite relationship between effort vs. reward. On the other hand, not only does DAIMP not have the upgrade system which in turns make it possible for you to you to get the same common items 200 times in a row here, it also has item level on top of rarity to increase the amount of RNG involved. Let's assume that in ME3MP there's a 2% chance to get UR from a Spectre pack initially, which incidentally any class can use so it's always going to be useful. Then we can look at DAIMP where you might have 2% chance to get a unique but then there's another 2% chance that it'll actually be level 23 item, effectively double the RNG involved to get something "end game" from the most expansive chest. And to add on top of that, even if you get a level 23 unique it might not be for the class that you intend to play then you get a reward system that's much more RNG based than the one in ME3MP.

 

I guess I might be seeing ME3MP through rose-tinted glasses but I remember that it felt like I was actually progressing when I spend time and effort playing on higher difficulty while here in DA:IMP, everything is simply based around luck and the system encourages micro-transaction way more than the ME3MP ever did. Hope that made sense and sorry for my English since it's not my first language.

[Hiero_Glyph]

Yeah, crafting in DAMP is just an excuse to make the RNG a hundred times worse.  Let's not forget that once you got a weapon to X in ME3 you never got it again.  Do you know how many of the same item I have gotten in DAMP already?  And then the materials I get for it are generally worthless since they are unable to craft higher tier upgrades or items.  If I could eventually craft a unique item this would make my time spent grinding feel worth the effort.

 

At the very least I should be able to trade multiples of a lower quality material for a higher tier one, and then use those higher tier items to craft a random, class specific item with a higher chance of being rare or unique.  Without this type of mechanic the RNG in DAMP is absolutely horrible.  Let's not forget that high level items are more important than player skill since every skill is ultimately based on the weapon's damage.  It really is an archaic system without many redeeming qualities.

[Shinnyshin]

I assume you played ME3MP as well? You know how to optimize your spending by maxing out most if not all of the commons then move onto Veteran and then Spectre. There's a very clear and definite relationship between effort vs. reward. On the other hand, not only does DAIMP not have the upgrade system which in turns make it possible for you to you to get the same common items 200 times in a row here, it also has item level on top of rarity to increase the amount of RNG involved. Let's assume that in ME3MP there's a 2% chance to get UR from a Spectre pack initially, which incidentally any class can use so it's always going to be useful. Then we can look at DAIMP where you might have 2% chance to get a unique but then there's another 2% chance that it'll actually be level 23 item, effectively double the RNG involved to get something "end game" from the most expansive chest. And to add on top of that, even if you get a level 23 unique it might not be for the class that you intend to play then you get a reward system that's much more RNG based than the one in ME3MP.

 

I guess I might be seeing ME3MP through rose-tinted glasses but I remember that it felt like I was actually progressing when I spend time and effort playing on higher difficulty while here in DA:IMP, everything is simply based around luck and the system encourages micro-transaction way more than the ME3MP ever did. Hope that made sense and sorry for my English since it's not my first language.

No worries, your English is perfectly fine!  And yeah, I remember the ME3 system well and maxed my rares very, very quickly.  The thing is, most dedicated players hit this point where URs were what you needed to progress and you might get one of those every week or two.  It would've taken me 1.4k hours to max out my ultrarares in ME3 and many of them were outright worse than rares until they hit higher ranks; most of my friends have similarlish time estimates.  1400ish hours required means it just flat-out isn't going to happen, even for most incredibly hardcore players.

 

I agree the double RNG is very frustrating.  But I feel like you're equating a level 23 Unique to a Rank X Rare in ME3, which isn't valid.  A level 23 Unique is the pinnacle of this system, the absolute apex, definitely overkill for the hardest difficulty.  It's the equivalent of a Rank X UR in ME3.  A Rank X Rare, I'd argue, is more comparable to a good level 20+ common or 17+ Rare maybe in terms of how much mileage you can get out of it.  And they seem to be much easier to acquire in this game.  Furthermore, I'm pretty sure the data isn't available to know whether the droprate is that bad; most of my friends and I have at least one weapon we think we can use for the rest of time and we haven't been playing that long.  And I'll take stacking double RNG all day every day over ME3's system that had you sacrificing livestock to see an upgrade within the next week.

 

TLDR: people idealizing ME3's system are conveniently excluding the three million Disruptor/Cryo Ammo drops, a billion UR Volus class cards, and the horrific UR droprate that just stonewalled your progression.  If you think of a high level unique as a UR, rather than a rare, I think you'll find this system looks much more favourable.

[Tang McGame]

ME3MP didn't gate higher difficulties so hard.  A competent player with any of the starter weapons maxed out, a willingness to use consumables, and an appropriate build (with any of the classes, including the starters) would be just fine in gold difficulty.  In DAMP, you must have high-level gear to move up.  The difference is that it's possible you will never get good enough gear to excel in DAMP. 

 

There needs to be some solution. Some way to target higher-level gear, whether it's through crafting or chests.  It needs to be significantly less efficient than just buying large chests as far as mats and potions go.  It can be expensive, but it needs to be more controlled.

[Naitaka]

ME3MP didn't gate higher difficulties so hard.  A competent player with any of the starter weapons maxed out, a willingness to use consumables, and an appropriate build (with any of the classes, including the starters) would be just fine in gold difficulty.  In DAMP, you must have high-level gear to move up.  The difference is that it's possible you will never get good enough gear to excel in DAMP.  There needs to be some solution. 

 

Some way to target higher-level gear, whether it's through crafting or chests.  It needs to be significantly less efficient than just buying large chests as far as mats and potions go.  It can be expensive, but it needs to be more controlled.

 

Yah, I think you hit the nail on the head. I've a few friends with whom I started playing DAIMP with and there're already several of them that feel like they can't participate in Perilous game because their gear isn't up to the task even though they spent roughly the same amount of time playing as the rest of us. With less than a 10k difference in gold gained, I've had people who has over 27 Uniques with 5 of those being level 21+ while I have never even seen a level 20 Unique but was at least lucky enough to get a level 22 rare staff that'll last me a long way. Sadly there're those who can't even get those.

 

Here's a more detailed breakdown:

I spent a total 188463 gold and has gotten 9 uniques, none of which are above level 19. I also got 2 level 22 rares.

Associate A spent a total of 189723 gold and has gotten 31 unique, 4 are level 23, another 3 above level 21.

Associate B spent a total of 77501 gold and has gotten 7 unique, 3 are level 23.

Asoociate C spent a total of 79130 gold and has gotten absolutely 0 unique, best item he's gotten is a level 18 rare bow.

 

 

The problem with DAIMP reward system that I see lies in the lack of control and the lack of sense of progression, which makes it feel more like something out of a Japanese/Korean Mobile F2P game than anything else.

[Shinnyshin]

ME3MP didn't gate higher difficulties so hard.  A competent player with any of the starter weapons maxed out, a willingness to use consumables, and an appropriate build (with any of the classes, including the starters) would be just fine in gold difficulty.  In DAMP, you must have high-level gear to move up.  The difference is that it's possible you will never get good enough gear to excel in DAMP.  There needs to be some solution. 

 

Some way to target higher-level gear, whether it's through crafting or chests.  It needs to be significantly less efficient than just buying large chests as far as mats and potions go.  It can be expensive, but it needs to be more controlled.

While I agree there need to be solutions--preferably through the crafting system--also have to point out that the beginning of ME3 wasn't that easy.  Do you remember how people cleared Gold by finding the most gimmicky strategy (Quarian Infiltrator against Geth) and chain-farming that to get their accounts jump-started?  It was so common as to be the default Gold setup and actually got Quarians nerfed.  Yeah, that was necessary because of how brutal release ME3 was.  It took a loooooong time for regular players, not your all-stars but regular players, to start regularly clearing Gold.

 

After a year of power creep, players getting better, manifest building by community, and patches making combos an order of magnitude better, it's more in line with what you describe.  But not at the start.  And we're at the start now.

[Sabor]

I would completely change Perilous difficulty.  Leave it the same as it is, as far as difficulty is concerned.  Make every chest a chest you have to fight an elite for, and a guaranteed item to drop from it (Random quality, maybe slightly increased chances).  Then the end boss always drops a purple item if you should defeat the wave and complete the run

 

There's no point in doing it over Threatening.  This would give us a reason to play it