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[Antergaton]

I think people do over analyse things sometimes.

 

If Flemeth is Mythal and Salos could be Fen'Harel, they would recognise their energies. But beyond that we don't know anything and I hope David Gaider has a cool idea at the end of it.

 

This said, I do not like him or trust him. His views were way off, he discredited Dalish Elves efforts to find the old ways, he also did understand that a demon is infact a demon. His obsession with 'spirits' blinds him from realities. This is the arrogance of a god (or god like being). I do not believe he cared about the beings of Thedas just about fixing his mistake and getting his precious orb back.

[OG Swift]

Also, he seemed pretty upset with the whole orb thingy. Maybe he was also trying to usurp the golden city himself. In any case, judging by what he say to Cole before departing, you can say he is up to no good at all.

 

Well I finished the game (skipping Hissing Wastes) and I do not recall any scene with Solas / Cole departure. Could you reveal this to me, please?

 

From what I understood of the ending, Solas turned out to be that Dread Wolf depicted all over Dales but I am quite unsure, who he actually is (as it turned out that he did not betray Gods?).

 

Judging by the dialog between him and Flemeth, he is responsible for the mess, giving that orb to Corypheus some time before story begins from so far unknown reasons and now being a cry baby it's gone. I didn't like that look after raping Flemeth either. If he's going to be the next villain then bring it on, I never liked him anyways

 

EDIT: I am worried now that my Inquisitor could be his b*tch after drinking from the well...?

[Zanteogo]

He gave the orb to Cory so he could activate it. He knew the explosive effects that would occur after activation and he assumed it would kill off Cory, and allow him to take the orb for himself. This is why he was close the temple of ashes at the start of the game.

 

He is also responsible for the downfall of the elves. He locked away the elven "gods", with good reason it seems.

[Klystron]

I don't think Flemeth has the Old God soul with her when Solas takes her soul or she takes his. If you watch the cutscene you can see her releasing what looks like the Old god soul into the eluvian. 

 

 

She also does that - whatever it is - in a game where there is no old god baby. Could be a bit of herself, perhaps?

Flemeth has already loaned Morrigan enough power to become a dragon, perhaps she made it permanent, or even gave Morrigan more of herself (but not all). 

edit:  I played the non-OGB version and let Morrigan drink, apparently other versions are different.  So now I'm not sure. 

[xnarcosysx]

And yet Solas speaks through Cole if you go check on him after the end of the game. I'm inclined to think he was the one who took her soul/power/whatever.

But as we know, time travel is real in DA. Cole. Just blurts out stuff a lot. This could have occurred Before solas went to Flemeth. But this also could be Bioware cop out for having an elven god controlled inquisitor.

[Taear]

Firstly I'd say all the people discussing the Old God soul earlier in the thread especially but also towards the end - it can't be something that's going to have a big effect. If it was the default world state wouldn't have it missing altogether.

Which is a shame and I'm sure it'll do SOMETHING but it won't be very important.

 

I'd say the same about the Hero of Ferelden and the Calling - they're dead in the default world state. I'm sure the Calling will be really important but I can't say that the HoF will have a huge role in fixing it.

 

Mentioned a little earlier in the thread was Solas showing contradiction by being pro-elf but also saying that he doesn't see himself as an elf. I'd say the reason for that is we're going to learn that humans and elves are a lot more related than you'd think. I believe that's why Alistair's mother is Fiona and Michael's mother is [an elf] so they can show us that if you're a half elf you're ENTIRELY human and completely indistinguishable from any other human.

 

They must want to make a point of this. Maybe in the next game we'll visit the pyramids of Par Vollen and learn the truth? When you speak to the Ancient Elves Dorian is pretty irritated that the offical Tevinter line on what happened to Arlathan is wrong. That it was a huge point of pride for Tevinter to destroy the elvish empire alone and unaided. I feel like if they'd found the Par Vollen temples (Par Vollen was part of Tevinter) and it was all about how humans and elves are the same and a war in the heavens between the Old Gods/Elven Gods they'd never ever tell anyone so it's not hard to have those temples tell us things about the origin of Thedas' humanity.

 

I'd guess as well from what Cory and Solas say about the Qunari that we'll be learning something about how they were created in the jungles of Par Vollen too. Maybe from throwing a bit of Dragon into the mix of Human/Elf.

[jellobell]

But as we know, time travel is real in DA. Cole. Just blurts out stuff a lot. This could have occurred Before solas went to Flemeth. But this also could be Bioware cop out for having an elven god controlled inquisitor.

Well post-game is about 3 months or so after the final battle (because the ending slides said they needed that long to choose the new divine). I highly doubt that cole has been holding onto that message for over 3 months. Plus, from the way it was presented, it was Solas speaking through Cole, and then immediately wiping his memory of the encounter. Solas needs to be able to be in control to do that.

Also time travel was limited to while the breach was open. You could only travel within the few months between the opening and closing of the breach. Not before, and not after.

Then there is the encounter itself. I saw it as Flemeth being complicit in Solas taking something from Her (mythal's soul? Her power?). She doesn't contradict his "but the people, they need me". That's him offering an explanation for what he's about to do, and Flemeth lets it happen.

[AppalachianApex]

I might be reciting what some people ahave already said but here goes:

 

It's been all-but-confirmed that Solas, Fen'Harel, The Dread Wolf, whatever you want to call him locked away the Elven Pantheon. Cole sees this is him, he says to Solas when reading his mood:

 

"He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same

you’re real and it means everyone could be real

it changes everything but it can’t

they sleep, masked in the mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them… (Gasp!)"

 

Solas also makes mention of an "Old Elven skirmish," and "A mistake" that he made when he was young. Solas locked away the Old Elven Gods. I agree with Knight-Enchanter's theory. Fen'Harel was a 'God' of rebellion. He rebelled against the Pantheon, being neither one of the 'Creators' or 'The Forgotten Ones". He didn't like what the 'Gods' were doing to Elvhenan. Factions warred among themselves, Gods went mad and hurt people, and slaves were kept in service to different deities.

So, he lead a rebellion against them, and locked them away. Again going off what Knight-Enchanter says, I think the Creators are locked within an Eluvian, in an alternate world. One that is not ours and also not the Fade. Cole says they are "Masked in the Mirror," so this seems to make a lot of sense. 

So, I think Solas lead his rebellion and, thinking himself successful, slept. He underwent Uthenera. And when he woke, he was horrified. Humans had taken over the world, elves lost their homes, their history, their beautiful magic, and their immortality. Those that remained lived in squalor or as aloof, savage Dalish, who had so long misread and misinterpreted Elven history that they were barely still "elves' by Solas' definition. Solas had tried to improve his people's lives by ridding them of their Gods, but instead, he brought his people to ruin. A certain way of playing through the Temple of Mythal reveals that Tevinter did not destroy Arlathan, elves did, with centuries of brutal infighting. Without their Gods, they were lost. So, Solas is devastated by what he now knows was a mistake, that mistake being the locking away of the Elven Gods. It is this mistake he seeks to rectify. His Orb is the Key to releasing the Gods he locked away so long ago. It's the Key to the Eluvian, or something quite like an Eluvian, that holds back the Creators. He allows Corypheus to acquire it to unlock it's power, and joins the Inquisition in hopes of defeating Cory and regaining his powered Orb.

We know the rest.

 

Two things, to me at least, are left outstanding.

1. What happened to Mythal?

Her and Solas are clearly aquatinted and not at all antagonistic towards one another. Were they allies in the days of Arlathan? And what of her "Murder?" She was not locked away like the rest of the Creators. I think her murder was at the hands of the other member of the Pantheon, and it was this act that spurred Fen'Harel into his great Rebellion.

 

2. What happened to the "Forgotten Ones?"

We now know that the Creators were hardly the most benevolent Gods, so the Forgotten Ones must have been pretty awful. But they too were locked away. Here's what I think happened though. I don't think that Fen'Harel locked the Creators and The Forgotten Ones in the same place. Elven legends, however misinterpreted, say that the Creators were locked in "The Heavens" while the Forgotten Ones were sealed in "The Abyss." To me, "Abyss" says underground. What other Gods are underground? The Old Gods, that's who. I think the Old Gods of Tevinter are The Forgotten ones in Dragon form, or at least aspects of the Forgotten Ones in Dragon form.

This explains why they would drove the Magisters of Tevinter to breach Heaven and usurp what they found there. Stay with me. So, I'm also becoming a bigger and bigger believer in the concept that the Black City is, in fact, Arlathan. NO traces of Arlathan have been found, and legends say the city "Sunk" when Elvhenan fell. 

I think that Arlathan is where the Creators are imprisoned in the fade. This is why no one but (supposedly) the Magisters of Old have been able to reach it. The Black City IS real, it is always present in the Fade, but none can reach it. Except, I think, by access ranted by Solas' Orb.

This would explain the Ancient Elves connection to the Calling. And I do think that is exactly what the message of the Well refers to. I have no doubt that "The Calling" the voices speak of does refer to THE Calling. 

The Calling of the Forgotten Ones, the Old Gods, calling out from their prisons in "The Abyss" to crack open the prison of The Creators and continue their ancient battle. 

I think Cory was part right, part wrong, and part insane. I think that that when Corypheus and the Other Magister breached "The Golden City" they DID find nothing but chaos and dead whispers. I think that after so long in a blacked Aralthan, that's all the place would be. But I do think they were cast out. Not by the Maker, but by the Creators imprisoned there. As a blow against the world that they had once ruled, a world that turned against them, and locked them in this eternal prison in the "Heavens."

 

One last thing. I believe that the act of sealing away the ancient Elven deities created what we know as the Veil. Again going off the Theory of Knight-Enchanter; Solas speaks so fondly and so readily of a world where the spiritual and the physical are one, one might be forgiven for thinking he himself has lived in such a world. Furthermore, what Cole says about Solas lends itself to this idea, "...an old pain from before, when everything sang the same. You’re real and it means everyone could be real..." I believe that in the days of ancient Arlathan, there was no Fade, no veil.

 

TL;DR:

-Well Message does refer to THE Calling.

-Fen'Heral did lock the ancient Elven Gods away.

-Creators were locked inside of Aralthan and banished to the Fade, "The Heavens."

-Arlathan is the Black City.

-The Forgotten ones were banished underground, "The Abyss."

-Old Gods of Tevinter are, or are strongly related to, the Forgotten Ones.

-Old Gods/Forgotten Ones "Called" to the ancient Magisters to enter the "Golden City of Aralathan and usurp what the found there; "The Creators."

-Sealing away the deities created the Veil and the Fade.

[xnarcosysx]

Well post-game is about 3 months or so after the final battle (because the ending slides said they needed that long to choose the new divine). I highly doubt that cole has been holding onto that message for over 3 months. Plus, from the way it was presented, it was Solas speaking through Cole, and then immediately wiping his memory of the encounter. Solas needs to be able to be in control to do that.

Also time travel was limited to while the breach was open. You could only travel within the few months between the opening and closing of the breach. Not before, and not after.

Then there is the encounter itself. I saw it as Flemeth being complicit in Solas taking something from Her (mythal's soul? Her power?). She doesn't contradict his "but the people, they need me". That's him offering an explanation for what he's about to do, and Flemeth lets it happen.

I was joking about the time travel. I really just don't understand how bioware can kill off a main character in a post credits scene. That leaves it as a side thing that many people may not see. And what would she be apologizing for then? We understand why solas was. And after thousands of years she just gives herself up with no control anymore? No way.

[jellobell]

I was joking about the time travel. I really just don't understand how bioware can kill off a main character in a post credits scene. That leaves it as a side thing that many people may not see. And what would she be apologizing for then? We understand why solas was. And after thousands of years she just gives herself up with no control anymore? No way.

Well we don't know that she's dead. Personally, I don't think she is. Flemeth's body has been shown to "die" before. But I also don't think she's taken over Solas's body (because that would also be killing a main character in a post-credits sequence, and I don't think after a whole game of buildup they'll get rid of the Dread Wolf so easily). So I think she'll be back, but probably not for a while.

[Taear]

I was joking about the time travel. I really just don't understand how bioware can kill off a main character in a post credits scene. That leaves it as a side thing that many people may not see. And what would she be apologizing for then? We understand why solas was. And after thousands of years she just gives herself up with no control anymore? No way.

 

I don't see a problem with this, her role is done now.

[StrangeStrategy]

So many smart people in here with amazing theories. What I've gathered;
- The Elven Gods were the strongest ancient elves, and given the God title.

- The Elven Gods weren't all that benevolent.

- Mythal was murdered, likely by one of the other gods, but probably not Fen'Harel.

- Disappointed with the God's leadership and Mythal's betrayal, Fen'Harel used his Foci to create the Veil and lock the other gods behind it... In the Golden/Black City?

- Exhausted by this act, Fen'Harel went to sleep for many years, and his orb/Foci became dormant. Perhaps this act even destroyed his own body.

- During those years, with their gods either dead or missing, the Elves's society feuded and faded. The Veil weakened their magic and people.

- ...Somehow, humans arrived. Perhaps it was the creation of the Veil, making Fen'Harel "The Maker".

- The Tevinter Humans waged war on the elves of Arlathan, and sunk it. This was easier, because the elves basically destroyed themselves already.

- At some point, Mythal manages to recover from her death in a small way: Like a spirit, a wisp of her existence endured and join with a woman called Flemeth.

- Just like Mythal/Flemeth, the sleeping spirit of Fen'Harel must have encountered a Dreamer Elf (Later known as Solas), and joined with him.

- Becoming "mortal" again, Fen'Harel was able to wake up from his slumber and discover what his rebellion wrought. He ruined the elves, basically.
- Desperate to fix his mistake (Locking the gods away) he planned on using his Foci to tear open the Veil (IE, the Breach? But bigger.) but as he was too weak to power it, he gave it to Corypheus (Not sure how they met.) for he was ancient as well, and strong enough to power it. It didn't go great.

- The Ritual obviously failed, and it didn't dispel the Veil. Instead, it only created a (One-way?) portal from the Fade into the world, without unlocking the city.

- In an effort to atone for another mistake, Solas joins the Inquisition.... Oddly, he goes around finding Ancient Elven Artifacts that "strengthen" the Veil.

- After Corypheus bitterly tries to bring Doom Upon All The World, he is defeated and the Foci is destroyed, much to Solas' displeasure.

- Solas encounters Flemythal, who somehow recognize each other. Mythal calls him "Dread Wolf", emphasis on "Dread". Solas claims he is sorry, and that the people need him... Flemythal apologises (Agreeing?) and seems to realize she isn't as needed as him. She gives her essence to him, and turns to stone...

What I still don't understand:
- The Old Gods, dragons underground. If the Fade is the reflection of the physical world and the Black City is equidistant from every point in the Fade... You'd think the Golden City was at the center of the earth. But the deeper we go into the earth, the more Old Gods, Darkspawn, Blight, and Red Lyrium we find.

- Solas claims the Ancient Elven Artifacts strengthen the Veil, and encourages us to activate them. This is odd, seeing how Solas' goal is apparently to dispel the Veil, not strengthen it. Not only that, but activating them has absolutely no effect on any existing Fade Rifts in the area as far as I can tell. Also, the Ancient Elves didn't even have a Veil, why/how could they make artifacts to strengthen it? Isn't the Veil what basically did them in? It doesn't add up. I believe he is lying.

- Red Lyrium. It was in the Primeevil Thaig, pre-dating so many things, perhaps even the First Blight Itself? And we know Red Lyrium is Lyrium with the taint...

- Flemeth better not be gone. As much as I enjoy Solas, Flemeth looks freaking badass and I'd hate it if she was truly gone.

- How do the Old Gods (Archdemons) relate to the Elven Gods, Mythal, specifically? Was she murdered by one? That's not exactly a "betrayal" though. Still, Flemeth saved the Wardens and said the Blight would consume even her. Not only that ,but she needed Kieran's dragon soul. That she can turn into a dragon herself is also suspicious... Too many connections/coincidences to not be something big.

[Patchwork]

Another thread reminded me that we don't know the dwarves part in all of this. All we know is that there's an ancient thaig were blighted lyrium grows and darkspawn who have some sort of connection to the old gods (maybe even the elven gods) are intent on killing everyone live underground.

 

DAI was elf focused maybe DA4 or DAI's DLC will fill in some of the blanks.  Three games in and we still know next to nothing about Blights. 

[Neleothesze]

I can't get how that boring weakling is now the centerpiece of the antagonism side.

 

I mean, what? He was horribly passive and weak the entire story. Yes, he did know about the orb, but other than that displayed no special knowledge or abilities. Completely bland and unexceptional, and rarely displays any opinions or reasons to take his input seriously.  Just another B-team companion.

 

The first time in the game he shows any sort of personal motive is when the orb breaks. He shows no trace of having secondary motives, good or bad, until the final boss has already been defeated.

 

And then, all the sudden, he's something hugely relevant, out of nowhere. Apparently, the orb was his and he gave it to Cory, for who knows what reason.  Huh?

 To quote him: No real god need prove himself. Anyone who tries is mad or lying.

 

About being weak: He's awakened after millenniums of being 'asleep'. He wasn't even strong enough to use his own artifact at that point. That's why he passed it off to Corypheus. To power it up.

 

About being 'bland and unexceptional': He's pretending to be a simple apostate. He's travelling with the freaking Right Hand of the Divine. Being exceptional would make him a target. He has to make himself useful... but not seem too knowledgeable at the same time. He just shows enough of his skills to be a moderately useful asset.

 

And he still breaks that cover when he tells you that the orb is elven (after Haven), when he directs you to find Skyhold (which should raise some flags), when he seems at home in court in Halamshiral despite pretending to be a man-servant or when speaking to the demon in the Fade/Nightmare.

 

Think of his personal quest: when his friend dies he's perfectly capable of incinerating three mages with no harm to himself even though he supposedly isn't a fan of fire and lightning.

 

These are just a couple of instances which come to mind but there are dozen of other moments that hint to the fact that he's only pretending to be 'bland and unexceptional'.

 

Think of how he speaks to Sera about the Friends of Red Jenny. As the God of Rebellion he's pretty appreciative of what she's doing and has some neat (harsh) suggestions for developing her resistance movement.

 

I'm not saying that everyone should like the character (Maker knows people are violently supportive or violently against others like Vivienne or Sera) but taking Solas at face value and then feeling like the epilogue was weird makes me think that you didn't perhaps take him on a lot of quests or with many different companions and you might have missed some of his dialogue.

 

I know that, from his talks with Cole I was - at one point - completely certain he was a old demon possessing some poor mage. And it was so totally awesome to romance this evil spirit. ) Well, the truth was even stranger with and added dose of cool. XD

[xnarcosysx]

Well we don't know that she's dead. Personally, I don't think she is. Flemeth's body has been shown to "die" before. But I also don't think she's taken over Solas's body (because that would also be killing a main character in a post-credits sequence, and I don't think after a whole game of buildup they'll get rid of the Dread Wolf so easily). So I think she'll be back, but probably not for a while.

Those other times her soul wasn't absorbed either.

I don't see solas as a main character. Not even close. I wouldn't be hurt If he disappears. He's only mentioned in lore and you can have a whole game with no interaction with him other than the forced sections.

[jellobell]

Those other times her soul wasn't absorbed either.

I don't see solas as a main character. Not even close. I wouldn't be hurt If he disappears. He's only mentioned in lore and you can have a whole game with no interaction with him other than the forced sections.

You think a party member and potential love interest is less of a main character than one that we've seen for maybe an hour or so put together over three games? 

 

If we're talking either or, I think Solas is probably going to be more important going forward. Bioware have gone to such trouble on his buildup that anything else would be a waste.

[SamanthaJ]

You think a party member and potential love interest is less of a main character than one that we've seen for maybe an hour or so put together over three games? 

 

If we're talking either or, I think Solas is probably going to be more important going forward. Bioware have gone to such trouble on his buildup that anything else would be a waste.

So...it's been revealed what happened. Someone found some notes and now the ending scene is made clear.

[jellobell]

So...it's been revealed what happened. Someone found some notes and now the ending scene is made clear.

It has? So what happened?

[SamanthaJ]

It has? So what happened?

It's all here. It started from a thread in reddit and other people have confirmed that they have located these files. Some people were right, some weren't (obviously). But it does contain some information that hadn't been guessed.

 

http://forum.bioware...ve-been-warned/

[jellobell]

It's all here. It started from a thread in reddit and other people have confirmed that they have located these files. Some people were right, some weren't (obviously). But it does contain some information that hadn't been guessed.

 

http://forum.bioware...ve-been-warned/

Whoa. Thanks for the link!

 

Spoiler

Huh. Really didn't expect them to kill off Flemeth.

[Shadpants]

They didn't really kill Flemeth. She'll be back..but she'll be morrimeth (or inquisimeth I guess) in the future.

[Morroian]

They didn't really kill Flemeth. She'll be back..but she'll be morrimeth (or inquisimeth I guess) in the future.

 

Sorry it appears they actually did. I doubt Morrigan will feature any part of Flemeth's consciousness.

[Itkovian]

Sorry it appears they actually did. I doubt Morrigan will feature any part of Flemeth's consciousness.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. I'm sure the writers will bend over backwards to give us more opportunity to hear Kate Mulgrew.

 

Visions, fade visitations, full on manifestations, whatever it takes... we're not done with the Flemeth we know and love.

 

The interesting bit is that it might not be Morrigan, but the Inquisitor who becomes her new vessel. Hopefully this does not involve actual possession, and our Inquisitors retain their free will.

 

Either way, this is the sort of thread that makes these games great.

[StrangeStrategy]

It would absolutely suck if they got rid of Flemeth, permanently. She already died once, there is nothing stopping them from saying "Hey, she had another Horcrux." and returning her to the series. Solas is interesting, Flemeth is WAAAY more interesting though. Removing her from the story like this is just... bleh. I hope they bring her back: She doesn't need to be half-Mythal, but keep the human Flemeth in the story.

 

I trust Bioware to write good stories and I'm extremely interested to see if Solas succeeds (More importantly, I want to stop him.) but I don't want to never hear from Flemeth again. She is a part of every DA Game, that's her thing.

 

A question; Flemeth is clearly stronger than Solas. That wimp can get one-shotted by enemies, Flemeth can become a respawning Dragon lady. She could have easily defeated Solas and taken his essence, why did she give in? 

[Shadpants]

Oh c'mon, it is quite obvious she will be back. The designer notes themselves say that she knew Solas was going to kill her and that she would allow that as long as she could pass her godhood into morrigan.

We or morrigan drank from the well, her well, and it allows her to control us. The voices will guide us to morrigan or will guide morrigan to wherever the last piece of flemmeth's soul (possibly with our help as I imagine this will be a DLC) is and she will become the new mythal.

The fact Flem's current body was killed does not mean that her essence was completely destroyed and does not mean she does not have other pieces of her soul stored somewhere. The game taught us to never forget this as Bioware has been quite good with foreshadowing things to us. They let us know that killing Flemeth's body is pointless in DA:O and DA2 and there's a reason for that.

And as to why she allowed Solas to kill her...Because it is in her plans. She needs Solas to do whatever he is going to do in order to fulfill her ultimate goal. What her goal is beats us at the moment, even if we know it has something to do with her getting revenge on whoever killed her when she was Mythal.