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[Bearness]

Here's what I think I think.

 

The elven gods weren't truly gods. Maybe they were powerful mages or powerful nobles. But they had god-like status, which is enough. They ruled over their subjects/worshippers/slaves in a not-great way - Creators and Forgotten Ones alike - and Solas alone out of the "gods" (imagine inverted commas at every other mention of gods for the rest of this lol) didn't approve of or appreciate it. He wanted the People to be free from tyrants essentially. He thought he had a good idea and the only way - tricking both sides of gods and sealing them away (in a realm beyond, reached by Eluvians) - all but Mythal, for she was murdered and wanted vengeance, so they worked together in their plot. So he did it and then fell into slumber, probably because he was sad about being alone (all alone having sealed the rest of his kind away, all but Mythal obviously).

 

Long after, he woke up from uthenera. He saw how the elves are living now thanks to having lost their Creators - enslaved in Tevinter, subjugated in alienages, disliked by humans, or wandering the wilds as but shadows of their former glory, clinging to scraps of the past and mistaken information. Thanks to what he's done they've lost virtually everything, their history, their power, their culture. He regrets sorely what he did.

 

Morrigan tells us the Eluvians can be opened/locked from both sides and each has a key, didn't she? The elven orb was the key to the Eluvian in which Solas sealed the gods away. When he woke up and saw what his actions had done to the elves, he resolved to fix his mistake and release the gods. But he didn't have enough power to activate the orb and so he gave it to Cory, because he had enough power to use it. This as we know inadvertently caused the explosion.

 

It's kind of ironic because Cory too awoke from slumber and found the world gone awry.

 

Solas joins the Inquisition to fix this second great mistake. They do - they seal the Breach and defeat Cory. But the orb lies broken and Solas is distraught because it's the key to releasing the others.

 

He returns to Mythal. He should pay the price for his mistakes, and/or the "price" of what will be needed now to open the Eluvian - sacrifice of a being of great power perhaps? But the elves, he thinks they need him. His intentions now are to find another way to carry out his plans of unleashing the gods again.

 

I'm not clear on what happens in the final scene. Either Flemeth is sorry because of what she's about to do him - possess his body - or he's sorry for failing and for what HE'S about to do which is kill Flemeth and take her power. This power will help him in his quest to unleash the gods and Flemeth isn't truly dead because 1) she's Flemeth, powerful, a DA staple and 2) she probably has another Horcrux thing somewhere.

 

This does make a lot of sense..

 

Also Solas at some point starts talking about how the inqusitor showed him not to give up and that change is possible if not so keep trying.

Your part about the orb being a key is smart... i thought he might have maybe used it to transfer power back to himself...

What i also think is that Mythal wants revenge she was murder she may not be the mercyfull she once was.

Also if you ask flemeth why not show herself she says that she knew of human hearts and that humans wont change.

I know flemeth is important and she wont die easily... But Solas is taking a major leap here, as maybe even a main villain.

I dont mean a evil tyrant... but more of a everything for the greater good? or illusive man type of ends justify the means?

I think that he and Mythal who after seeing her people suffer for years and being murdered is bitter, and wants her justice.

OH before i forget is it just me? or do i also see flemeth using the soul of the Old god to open the gate? i mean it take a lot of power to do so?

Did she not open the Eluvian to some special place using that soul?

 

Well i am just throwing out ideas here even though the one ''quoted'' comes close to my mind set.

I loved the game and all the choices and endings and things... i wish ME3 did it like this hahaha.

 

Sorry if i do have bad english at some places... tried to be as clear as can be .

I AM SO STOCKED RIGHT NOW...

 

WOOOOOT GO ELVEN GOD MAGES

[Grayvisions]

This isn't what I came to at all. Playing with subtitles and the same scene shows Flemeth *GASPS*. That either tells me one of two things when combined with the facial expressions.

 

1. Flemeth is in extreme pain and didn't see it coming, Solas forcefully took Mythal's soul/power. (most likely scenario imo)

 

2. Similar to number #1, Flemeth in pain, however Mythal willingly merged with Solas to form one being and has left Flemeth. Mythal/Solas as a powerful combined being will now be able to wage war on the heavens. (still plausible)

 

People need to stop talking as if Flemeth/Mythal are one in the same, they arent. Flemeth is just a host body to a powerful soul/spirit. In either case Flemeth is suffering from extreme pain and the body is dead.

 

 

This. However, to take it further, I think it's assuming to much that Mythal joined up with Solas willingly. Flemeth said a soul can't be forced on an unwilling vessel, that doesn't mean a soul can't be ~stolen~. The vessel (Solas) in this case is obviously willing, the soul is that which may not be. Flemeth was definitely in pain and seemed surprised by what happened.

 

I think she was saying sorry to him because he clearly had other plans, and they failed. She probably wanted the same thing he did, they were both seeking something to do with power, souls, and elven lore. That would explain the sadness in her voice. When he said sorry, it seemed more like the stealing of Mythal was premeditated.

[Shadpants]

Shadpants' remark also got me thinking: Riordan in DA:O says a Grey Warden is necessary to slay an Archdemon because the soul upon death (Urthemiel's in that case) would seek out the nearest Darkspawn which is a "soulless vessel" and inhabit it. But instead, should the Archdemon be slain by a Warden, the soul of the Archdemon will be destroyed because the Warden is not a soulless vessel. YOOO meta-crisis. This means, I think that Corypheus would have had to use other, magical means to possess Janeka/Lairus to escape.

Since the taint is a bloodborne magical plague, maybe the fact that Janeka and Lairus are Warden's made it easier for Corypheus to possess them using Blood Magic?

 

I think that would mean whether Flemeth or Solas is the "will" of the merged being (like Justice/Anders), it was a mutually consensual process and both "souls" or "essences" still exist.

 

 

As to the assumption that possession cannot be forced upon someone, what about Uldred and the Broken Circle in DA:O? It was stated by Cullen, and being part of the mechanic of the Boss fight that: Uldred could in fact turn UNWILLING mages into abominations through magical ritual. Likewise in DA:2, Templar were being forced into becoming abominations against their will.

The question is: Are demons souls? From what we known from the lore demons/spiritis do not have a soul, therefore Uldred being able to transform mages into abominations doesn't fall into the same scope, his ritual just summons spirits from the fades to take over a body. 


Also, vbonnet, i still think the wardens and their relationship with the taint/souls is different from others. If we take the archdemon thing at face value it means that only 1 soul can exist in 1 body, but we've seen from Kieran and Flemeth that this is not true. That means that either darkspawn and whatever the taint is works outside the rules of the world or that there's a big flaw in the laws of DA's universe.

I mean Kieran had an old god soul inside of him and it was all fine, so why would a warden and the old god die when they share a vessel? The only different thing in both situations is the taint, so it is truly key to the whole problem.
 

Given that no one really seems to know shizzle about the darkspawn, i'm inclined to believe that different rules apply to them. My thoughts on cory vs archdemons can be utter nonsense, but the only thing that comes to my mind is that Cory can take over other bodies with the taint because he “is” the taint.
 

He has the power to control wardens and darkspawn like an old god can, but an old god has no bearing on the darkspawn or wardens if it is not tainted. I do not know if Cory’s soul/blood become the taint or was corrupted somehow, but whatever the answer is…the taint/original sin is key to explain why Cory can do it and why an archdemon dies when sharing a body with a warden.

 

[herkles]

question: Assuming that the Elven gods were powerful spirits why does that disqualify them from also being gods or goddesses?

[staindgrey]

question: Assuming that the Elven gods were powerful spirits why does that disqualify them from also being gods or goddesses?

Spirits, by definition, aren't so much entities with free will (like man), but embodiments of traits, made manifest in a world the physical realm cannot understand. They're so singular and one-track-minded that they're easily transformed into demons by man's faults. This is why Cole is always so confused; he now possesses a mortal body, and he's consistently conflicted by his new will and conscious mind.

 

By that definition, Mythal and Fen'harel can't simply be "spirits". They're too intelligent, manipulative and resourceful. They have to be something else. Whether that's a "god" or something different, no one can be sure.

[Kieran G.]

I doubt that given he almost has to have been Felassin's master.

I think it is more likely Flemeth was Felassan's teacher/master(etc) and the one who killed him since she had more of a reason to go after the Eluvian network since her daughter and grand son escaped through it, and what ever that huge eluvian flemeth was standing in front of at the end with solas.

[Shadpants]

Can anyone answer these questions based on their gut feelings (all we really have right now):

 

1) Flemeth says Mythal was betrayed as she was betrayed (jealous husband killed her lover). If it is to be taken literally, who was Mythal's lover and who was her husband?

 

2) In the epilogue we see Solas (Fen'harel) and Flemeth (Mythal) share a tender moment. However, right before Solas zaps her life from her his facial expression appears angry and mean as though he was intending to do harm. Because of this split second emotion on his face I am inclined to believe that Solas killed Flemeth/betrayed Mythal. But Flemeth is no fool, unless she trusted him and was betrayed. I just cannot see Flemeth letting him get that close if she did not trust him.

 

So, what is your impression on Fen'harel and Mythal's relationship and did he betray and kill her or was this some sort of spiritual melding they willingly partook in together?

 

 

3) The writer said there were super story reasons for Solas to be female elf romance only. Solas exudes elven pride (minus the Dalish) and only is sexually attracted to female elves . Solas (revealed to be what is considered an elven god) and others seem to doubt the elven gods were really gods. What do you think Solas is?

1. My gut says we can't take that literally, but if we are to...My guts tell me that the Maker is the one who betrayed Flemeth. I've always had this feeling that the makes does exist, but he is not the creator or what the chantry thinks he is. In my eyes The Maker is the BBEG and everything that happened since ancient times is his fault.

2. Solas killed Flem because in his naivity/guilt/desperation he saw no other way to get enough power to help his people. I've a feeling that the gods are locked in a pocket plane and it can only be accessesed with either the catch phrase or the orb that was destroyed in the game. Now, as to their relationship..I believe that Solas was tricked in the past and he made a booboo by locking the gods away or something like that, Flem knows that (the who/why/when) and because of that she doesn't bear any ill feelings for Fen'Harel, hence still considering him a friend. I don't think she trusts him, however, and I do think she was prepared for that outcome and that she is in fact using Solas to further her plans (she knew he was gonna come, didn't she?.)

3.He is a god, but what is a god has changed with time and him+the other elven gods are just not similar to the Maker modern Thedas believes in. I believe Morrigan has said once or twice something like "What is a god but a being of imense power?"

And I think he is only attracted to female elves because they are the only ones who ressemble his people and how things were in his time. He is lonely and nostalgic because the world he woke up in is a lot worse than it was before and he doesn't feel he belongs anywhere. And a female elf does kinda make him forget the present/past for a little bit, any other race would force him to accept things as they are.

Alternatively it is as simple as he is only attracted to his race and he is straight o.o.

[Bearness]

hmmm what i also find a cool idea is that Cory went to the golden city and it was empty... already vacant.

So that is because the elven spirits/gods are not there anymore.

Also if Cole can became almost human like can those elven god not switch between fade and humanlike something?

[Ennai and 54 others]

Flemeth can't steal peoples bodies.They have to be willing to accept her soul as a gift.Yavana hinted at this in the comics and Flemeth outright stated it in the fade.

 

Also It probably doesn't make a difference who stole who.At the end of the day they have all merged together.There is no point bickering about who fused with who,they are fused,which means there is no difference one way or another who made it happen.Same voice, same body,same goals.

[Ennai and 54 others]

Flemeth states that taking over a body cannot be done without permission, so either Solas/Flemeth gave permission for the body/soul to be taken, or she was lying.

 There is still plenty of room to doubt the makers existence lol.

 

First off Corypheus says the maker doesn't exist(or wasn't where he was supposed to be).Also the Black city was already messed up and empty when he got there.

 

The Herald of Andraste isn't the herald of anything it seems,the anchor comes from an ancient elven artifact,and the glowing woman was just a spirit impersonating the divine.

 

The elven and tevinter religions are confirmed,and yet chantry doctrine can still be argued to be false.

 

lol

[Kieran G.]

Can anyone answer these questions based on their gut feelings (all we really have right now):

 

1) Flemeth says Mythal was betrayed as she was betrayed (jealous husband killed her lover). If it is to be taken literally, who was Mythal's lover and who was her husband?

Mythals lover was Elgar'nan the All-Father and God of Vengeance, 

 

And they supposedly were the parents of the rest of the Elven pantheon.

 

 

Also the Forgotten ones weren't mention once, so i doubt the Creators are the Old Gods, i in fact think the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones who were the enemies of the Creators and both were locked away, the Creators in the Eternal City and the Forgotten Ones the abyss, which i believe literally means Abyss, so deep within the ground, like the Old Gods are locked away.

[Wolfen09]

kind of disappointed they brought the gods out in the game....  gaider has said they will keep the maker a mystery, i was hoping the rest of the gods would have been like that as well... oh well, people pretty much got it close with their mad speculations when TME came out anyway.  Meh, hopefully we go into another blight or the qunari/tevinter stuff for the next game.  Im tired of messing with gods and religions

[msman76]

Anyone else replay the game only to notice all the subtle hints that Solas isn't telling you the whole story? Like for example,I just started my second playthrough and the first party banter I get after bring Iron Bull on the team is IB noticing how Solas's magic isn't the same as any of the other mages he has seen and that even if he is self-taught, that would leave some sort of clunk in his technique. Solas get's defensive, stating that he wouldn't know/understand since he doesn't study magic. God Dammit Bull, you had It all along.

[blahblah]

blahblah, but then do you really believe Mythal or Fen'Harel instigated the merger? The look of pain and gasp are definitely signs of Flemeth's distress, but that, like you said is likely just the mortal woman being separated from Mythal and dying.

 

If Fen'Harel was too weak to use the orb, I don't think he was capable of ousting Mythal who had been awake for much of history. Also, is there any textual or lore-related evidence to suggest Fen'Harel could do that in the first place? We do know that Flemeth is entirely capable of this act, and indeed 'Flemeth's true grimoire' as Morrigan calls it details the rituals necessary to possess one's body, her "immortality". Let me know what you think!

I have not seen the ending with subtitles though, thank you for pointing that out!

 

Well we literally know almost nothing about the magic of the elven "gods" or ancient magic in general. My opinion of Flemeths Grimoire was that it was a long con as it makes 0 sense for Flemeth to write anything down in a book. From what we've seen Flemeth isnt senile or anything lol. The long con wouldve been put into play whenever the blight occured and due to Flemeth breeding her daughters to think and act in a certain way they wouldve acted appropriately to gain the Grimoire then have a kid to gain the soul of the archdemon.

 

Flemeth wouldve gained the powers and immortality due to Mythal inhibiting her body as from what the game shows it looks as if she has stopped aging.

 

I guess the question would be: Has Flemeth/Mythal tried to gain the soul of an archdemon before?

[Dobyk]

Maybe Flemeth really is just...human, and the Chasind legend about how she was betrayed is also true. In that case, the demon who Flemeth summoned to exact her vengeance is Mythal, because Mythal was also betrayed.... Hence why Mythal possessed Flemeth, so Flemeth is indeed an "abomination". Kind of like what happened with Justice/Vengeance and Anders... I don't think Flemeth has always been Mythal, but that's my opinion anyhow...

[Aren]

Personally, I'm hoping more for a large DAI expansion that cleans a lot of this stuff up, while maybe leaving enough stuff open to take us to ancient Arlathan in a DA4 or DA5. I don't particularly need to have 'Solas' around when later dealing with elven content.

 

There's a few major threads that could happen in future expansions or games. The Wardens and fate of the Darkspawn and Old Gods, Tevinter as a whole, possible Qunari invasion, ancient elven secrets, and I'm even open to dwarven revelations after seeing the stuff in DA2. DAI was only super major in closing off a lot of the TemplarVSMage and Chantry business, and even that technically isn't totally over.

 

But yeah, I wouldn't mind a large elven themed expansion with the Inquisitor, but with enough stuff left open for a DA4 or DA5 to focus on. I don't need all the Creators back in DAI, is basically what I'm saying

 

EDIT: It comes to mind that I may have seen Arlathan concept art months ago. Maybe this does mean a field trip there next year?

 

 

The elven gods are godly by many definitions, just maybe not the popular monotheistic perspective.

 

Their role as Creators was to (re)create the world from what the Maker-or-whatever made of Thedas. This was successful in the form of Arlathan.

 

But yes, possibly 'just' super powerful spirits/whatever.

 

~~~

 

I'm inclined to think that 'Solas' took 'Flemeth' into him, possibly becoming one.

 

This however may not discount there being other essences of 'Flemeth' (this naming thing is going to be tricky) out there, maybe based on our choices.

 

It does seem like Bioware may have a whole other layer of choice-consequence to things based on what we did with Morrigan, Kieran, Flemeth, Inquisitor, and Solas. 0_0

mmmm i believe that Flemeth do not need the power of Kieran to do what she want to do, because well his exitence is optional and byond her will, but she told that Mythal was betrayed by who? i dont belive that Fenharel have bad intention he love his people, but someone defeat all the elven gods in someway who?

[helpthisguyplease]

 Is simple the elven gods were just powerful elven rulers as Morigan said in a time when elves are immortal. But as the divine in fade proved to us you can become a spirit after you die and that what Mythal is a spirit inhabiting the body of well what was Flemeth in that story in DA:O with her in love with a bard but and so forth.

 Now what happened with Mythal is simple she was killed by the other elven "gods" in a betraying fashion my guess. And Solas probably her lover and also a "god" got revenge on them by imprisoning them in a certain place. But as said after the death of their gods the human tribes now with no "gods" to offer a unfair advantage to the elves the humans attacked and defeated them.

They could do that because my guess is the elves were in a civil war that exhausted them and inflicted to much casualties thanks to the disappearance of most of their immortal rulers( nothing special since most elves were special) but imagine if most leaders of medieval Europe of 1066 would be eliminated in a trick by the King of Castille. The rest of the countries would start a huge war against it and they will win.

But it leaves a problem in a fictional setting their immortal the leaders so its not like there was a succesion prepared since you ruled from the beginning of elven civilisation and did not planned to die. So the elven states not only will fight the nation Solas rules but also a civil war. So imagine the exhaustion such a war will bring imagine the amount of good spirits that will leave them imagine the amount of them made in to demons because of this.

  The rezult is no more blessings from the spirits no more immortality for their descendents as that is the reason of their immortality. A spirit comes and empowers a infant with health and everlasting life. So after losing their political unity, having a war that exhausts them with the immortality gone for their descendents and with demons roaming and learning the humans magic the tribes of human attack and they like the Muslim invasion  do not have mighty nations in their way just exhausted and in serious crisis ones.

  Now Solas with his nation destroyed and no way to stop the human invasion goes in hibernation waiting for a time when the humans are not united when he will not have to face a race united so he can bring the elves to prosperity of the old. And he considers that the only way is by freeing the other immortal alive rulers of the ancient elven civilization. Now the orb was the key but it was destroyed so he united with Mythal so he could have enough strength to either force open the mirror or to just contact the other rulers to tell them how to open the mirrors from the their side.

  But the problem is no matter how he makes a it he makes a mistake in my opinion he will free immortal but not invincible beings.

[Random Spirit.]

Spirits, by definition, aren't so much entities with free will (like man), but embodiments of traits, made manifest in a world the physical realm cannot understand. They're so singular and one-track-minded that they're easily transformed into demons by man's faults. This is why Cole is always so confused; he now possesses a mortal body, and he's consistently conflicted by his new will and conscious mind.

 

By that definition, Mythal and Fen'harel can't simply be "spirits". They're too intelligent, manipulative and resourceful. They have to be something else. Whether that's a "god" or something different, no one can be sure.
 

 

Its possible they (the gods) are entities that are very similar to the spirits/demons of the current age of Thedas, but differ from them in their capability for agency.

 

After all, the concept of gods before the notion of monotheism was that they represented different traits or aspects of the world. A god is after all a relationship between s being of special power (beyond that of "the mortals) and worshipers acknowledging these powers and hoping to gain the favor of the deity (good harvest, luck in love a good afterlife etc).Spirits was often just just minor deities and it might have been the same in the ancient times of Thedas.

 

 

It should be noted that Spirits and demons encountered in the games have shoved a great degree of sapience and intelligence, even though manifested in a very single minded personality.

 

Dalish Elves in particular seems to view spirits as distant relatives of sort - or at least as " a different people, a different clan" to quote Merrill. and Solas is of the same opinion. That is part of the reason why I think that they are related to spirits in some way and that they lost their physical immortality when they where separated from the fade by the veil (curtsy of a now remorceful Fen'Harel who it seems, along with Myrthal wants to restore the world because of the mess it brought).

[flowersloveoranges]

This may have already been said, but I believe that given the lore surrounding the Dread Wolf Solas is going to do one of two things. 

 

He will Bring Magic/Spirits back into the world using the power that can only be achieved by killing the Elven Gods or he will attempt to 'Free' the Gods from their respective places. Maybe the 'places' he locked them away weren't lands or Heavens, but people. This is why he sucks up Flemeth's spirit at the the end of the game because he was taking her God powers that were locked away by him. 

 

One of the main stories of the Dread Wolf is that he tricked the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones and locked them both away in their respective lands. Perhaps by attempting to making amends for his past actions or by making the world his ideal he will free both the Gods along with the Forgotten Ones. This of course will cause major **** to go down in Thedas.  

 

This is of course just speculation though. But its pretty obvious that his plans do have to do with the Gods in some shape or form. 

[Dobyk]

Well, I already posted my theory on what might have been before Fen'Harel imprisonment of the other gods, but why not. It's probably not correct, but I like to speculate!

 

First, I think the Creators are a perfect symbiosis of Spirit and Physical matter, beings that simultaneously exist in the real world and the Fade and have connections to both. I don't think they were "just"  powerful elves (because that's a bit lame), but maybe something slightly more and vastly powerful.

 

Then, the Creators did create life on Thedas, and particularly the elves, and in return they expected worship and created a Divine Covenant for the elves to live by. When Elgar'nan and Mythal proliferated to create the other Gods, elven society also grew and diversified, and changed. Maybe there were particular classes based on who worships certain deities, since the deities actually walked Thedas.

 

Those in the service of Mythal and Elgar'nan would be the elite, the nobles and magistrates, warrior-kings and law-makers who guide and rule over the rest of the elves, and who in turn answer directly to Mythal and Elgar'nan. They would be the highest eschelon, blood-bound to form a clan of elves to rule and guide the rest in eternity.

 

Then the second class was formed by those dedicated and sworn to Falon'Din and Dirthamen, the mystics, scholars, teachers, dreamer mages, interpreters of lore, the whisperers of secrets, the prophets. They would be the second caste, subservient to the first. The "spiritual" ones.

 

And then those under the divine oaths of Andruil, Sylaise, June and Ghilan'nain were the rank and file people of the empire - the artisans, craftsmen, architects, halla riders, healers, street cleaners, eluvian repairers, herders, hunters and gatherers, those who form the bulk of the society and are to be led by the upper classes. And then Fen'Harel, whose followers were  "the bizzarre ones" : the bards, spies, storytellers, tricksters, assasins, shadows, those who were free of the confines of the Divine Covenant between the elvhen and the Creators, who were in service to all the classes. And so on and so on. Point is, I think there was a distinct, ruthless order that the elves abided by, with the Gods at the top, and the Forgotten ones representing the forces of chaos who distrupt that order. And Fen'Harel and his followers as those who are truly free of Divine Orders, blood oaths and worship.

 

Then Fen'Harel tries to disrupt this societal order and the divine chains of the people, in order to let the elvhen take fate into their own hands and be truly free. But what happens is that it becomes even worse as slavery starts. The gods are gone, there is no Divine Covenant no more, and the elven nobility takes the opportunity to enslave, without fear of Divine intervention.

But that's my theory anyway. Basically a mix of Tevinter social order + the rigidity and division of labour in Qunari society + the Creators at the top. Or in other words, Divine order, enshrined by the Creators, followed by a more brutalized "order" in their absence. At this point I'm really dying for a Solas-centered DLC

 

[azarhal]

Mythals lover was Elgar'nan the All-Father and God of Vengeance, 

 

And they supposedly were the parents of the rest of the Elven pantheon.

 

Going by how the Dalish seems to be oh so very wrong about their pantheon, Elgar'nan might not be who we think he is...

[Dobyk]

Going by how the Dalish seems to be oh so very wrong about their pantheon, Elgar'nan might not be who we think he is...

 

He probably killed Mythal when she took Fen'Harel as a concubine