330 réponses à ce sujet

[Matth85]

Has anybody tested Dual Wield Rogue + Artificer? 

While the joy of Tempest and the destruction of Mark of Death are amazing, I can't help but to look at the Passives in Artificer. A rogue, and a team, with a huge amount of crit would result in near no CD of abilities. It would be like having a permanent weaker version of Flask of Fire on you. It could, possibly, yield quite the dps when the enemy is below 50% (Frequent use of Deathblow). I generaly feel Assassination loses some of its power once you start to reach the higher end of crit chance, at which Artificer gains more. This is all just me thinking, though, as I have yet to try out artificer outside of Varric. 

[Ace Attorney]

Varric is the best bro in Thedas so I have him almost in every setup I do with all my characters. I was thinking of having my own Inquisitor go Artificer too. Is that a good idea?

 

How would you set up a Varric who you want the AI to control most of the time (if not all the time) and also has an Inquisitor Artificer with him? 

[Anelyn77]

Btw, whoever says that Flask of Fire is bugged with focus, keep in mind that you can achieve same dps without flask of fire & double Thousand Cuts. It's all about party setup. That's why 2 artificers & 1 Tempest archers kill dragons in 5s without any "bugged abilities". You can double mark of death and then use Thousand Cuts and Mark of the Rift for same effect. 

 

Is not like you go from 1 dragon to another and can't get your focus up before heading for the said dragon.

 

Pretty much all rogue specs allow for insane burst combos. As I said in another threat I melted Western Approach Dragon just by double static cage with mark of rift (focus 2) walking bomb and double chain lightning (screen went in slow mo because of the multitude of chain hits). 

[Bombadyl]

Varric is the best bro in Thedas so I have him almost in every setup I do with all my characters. I was thinking of having my own Inquisitor go Artificer too. Is that a good idea?

 

How would you set up a Varric who you want the AI to control most of the time (if not all the time) and also has an Inquisitor Artificer with him? 

 

The biggest thing IMO about the artificer line is the .5 CD on crit, and 10% bonus damage and duration for the entire party.   Being Varric is also an artificer, you have now doubled CD rates and increased the party damage by 20% as well as duration of effects, as it is my understanding they absolutely stack.   Add in Sera set up for high crit rate using a lightning flask and you will find there is almost no CD during many battles allowing you to just spam Full Draw and Long Shot, and if Sera or Varric use the Jump Shot (including yourself) that fires multiples, you can almost forget worrying about CD. 

 

If it is ever a concern about Varric being too squishy, Legion of the Dead made from Silverite will fix that.   

[HeroxMatt]

Has anybody tested Dual Wield Rogue + Artificer? 
While the joy of Tempest and the destruction of Mark of Death are amazing, I can't help but to look at the Passives in Artificer. A rogue, and a team, with a huge amount of crit would result in near no CD of abilities. It would be like having a permanent weaker version of Flask of Fire on you. It could, possibly, yield quite the dps when the enemy is below 50% (Frequent use of Deathblow). I generaly feel Assassination loses some of its power once you start to reach the higher end of crit chance, at which Artificer gains more. This is all just me thinking, though, as I have yet to try out artificer outside of Varric.

i'm very much considering it. I think running around the battlefield and dropping bombs and traps will be good and using evade when necesswry to get out of trouble. Also, the party buffs are great for crits.

[Xhaiden]

Sadly, Artificer's elemental mines are a bit buggy and don't aways go off when stepped on which diminishes the active uses of the tree somewhat. Passively, the tree is fantastic. Actively, its a little bit bland. The main feature of Spike Trap, the ability to plant it while stealthed, isn't really relevant after the fight starts. While the elemental mines basically become a kind of general aoe attack in combat.

 

The lantern back step however is solid for a melee rogue and can really get you out of trouble. 

[Duelist]

When switching to Varric, I've found Spike Trap from stealth to be a good way of giving either him or my party's mage a few seconds to escape enemies.

[HeroxMatt]

Sadly, Artificer's elemental mines are a bit buggy and don't aways go off when stepped on which diminishes the active uses of the tree somewhat. Passively, the tree is fantastic. Actively, its a little bit bland. The main feature of Spike Trap, the ability to plant it while stealthed, isn't really relevant after the fight starts. While the elemental mines basically become a kind of general aoe attack in combat.

 

The lantern back step however is solid for a melee rogue and can really get you out of trouble. 

 

I can see how that might be a problem. And yeah the Lantern ability works like another Health Potion, which would be invaluable for DW Rogues as they often get caught in the AoE range of 2H enemies. Which is really annoying.

[Xhaiden]

Just having Varric stealth would be faster and more effective though. Rogue has the luxury of a complete instant deaggro. As for Mage's, heck, they're more durable than Rogues in this game. If you have a well built main tank the party AI is actually pretty decent about rounding up aggro and AI follows your target if you just switch to the enemy after your rogue/mage.

 

Not to mention you can already access caltrops and knock out powder on baseline rogue that are equal if not superior tools for that purpose ( Never mind Assassin's knock out bomb which is actually ranged or Tempest which can AoE Taunt ). Sure, knock out powder doesn't work on everything but neither does spike trap. If its a big enough, angry enough enemy that's going to be a major threat to your mage chances are it's immune to most soft control anyway and isn't going to be staggered, panicked or put to sleep. 

 

Its one of the weaknesses of the Rogue that comes as a trade off for its versatility. The Rogue is the jack of all trades and does a little bit of everything. But conversely its crowd control tends to be less effective on a wide range of enemies. 

[Bombadyl]

Its one of the weaknesses of the Rogue that comes as a trade off for its versatility. The Rogue is the jack of all trades and does a little bit of everything. But conversely its crowd control tends to be less effective on a wide range of enemies. 

 

I'm not so sure about that, it does require some thought in its construction and while I typically play archer or ranged roles, I do not see why this arrangement would not also work for a dual wield build using Assassin, although if using with Tempest, you would lose the benefit of other players, since they slow down, using the crit buffs of Varric and Sera hopped up on a flask would be kind of negated.  

 

I posted this on another thread (hate to double post) but if one considers what the make of their party brings to the table, I'll let this speak for itself

 

 

 

@Novadove, as an aside, I still can't seem to break much more than 12,000 a hit and it is driving me nuts, but hat tip for the line of thought on this build, may see if I can't solo this encounter in under a minute.  :-)   

[Novadove]

many people seems to have wrong idea about artificer.

 

they seem to think artificer is about traps. in reality if you have tried artificer, you will realize you don't even have the time to press traps.

 

sometimes, your fingers cant even catch up with how fast your skill refreshes and only to be hindered by limited stamina.

 

on my skill bars, I have no traps except elemental mine(without upgrade)

 

lastly, my personal principle on artificer archer is: archer is not about crowd control.

 

and by crowd control I would assume you mean trash mobs

 

why crowd control when you can kill everything in few hits?

 

@ Bombadyl,

 

without using hail of arrows, it is possible to kill a dragon within 10-15 sec in nightmare comfortably.

 

with hail of arrows, it is possible to kill a dragon in 4 sec.

 

as a tempest, I can never do that because after the flasks are used, I am haunted by skill CD...

 

edit: I realize my claims need to factor in equipment and character levels.

while artificer CD refresh is viable in low level, it is only when mid game onwards when you get better crafting options then the true potential of artificer shows.

I would think lvl 13+ is the minimum to say, try 3 rogue archer as oppose to the conventional 1 tank 1 mage 2 rogues etc.

[Gaz83]

Just re-specced my dual wield Assassin to take down some dragons.

 

The idea was to beat the winged terrors with bows, and spec back to my blades when they were defeated.

 

... but that isn't going to happen. Bow wielding Assassins are immensely powerful, and absolutely great fun too.  

[Blackstork]

No one talking about how well DW rogues mix together with templar, spirit mage and each other in terms of party comboing. You, defenitely could fight using ONLY combos and advanced effect from them. You need proper chaining, but technically, if you have templar, spirit/rift mage, assasin and tempest you can chain frost shattering/nightmare/stunlock on enemies. The panic could be chained that it will be omnipresent, thus providing CONSTANT crit-on-hit on affected anemies from your rogues . Adding frost flask and Winder Grasp , and precision / impact detonators collected from rogues/templar warrior/rift mage , and Inquisitor teamwork passive perk, chaining cc and detonators makes pretty cheesy.

 KB+2xKP spam, Deathblow, TF, 2xSB and all this with PW.

DW Rogue Party Combo chaining is very powerful.

[HeroxMatt]

Just re-specced my dual wield Assassin to take down some dragons.

 

The idea was to beat the winged terrors with bows, and spec back to my blades when they were defeated.

 

... but that isn't going to happen. Bow wielding Assassins are immensely powerful, and absolutely great fun too.  

 

Assassin Archer is my favourite build in this entire game. It's so good.

 

No one talking about how well DW rogues mix together with templar, spirit mage and each other in terms of party comboing. You, defenitely could fight using ONLY combos and advanced effect from them. You need proper chaining, but technically, if you have templar, spirit/rift mage, assasin and tempest you can chain frost shattering/nightmare/stunlock on enemies. The panic could be chained that it will be omnipresent, thus providing CONSTANT crit-on-hit on affected anemies from your rogues . Adding frost flask and Winder Grasp , and precision / impact detonators collected from rogues/templar warrior/rift mage , and Inquisitor teamwork passive perk, chaining cc and detonators makes pretty cheesy.

 KB+2xKP spam, Deathblow, TF, 2xSB and all this with PW.

DW Rogue Party Combo chaining is very powerful.

 

I'll link this in the OP! Sounds like a solid combo - it's similar to what I had in my Archer playthrough.

 

Cass (templar), Solas (Fade) and then Sera (Tempest). I wasn't paying too much attention to the combo at the time, but it's definitely a great team for that reason you stated. Especially with how quickly some of the cool downs go.

[Blackstork]

You better to have two rogues, one assassin and one tempest. Sleep spam is essential. You have 3 sleeps abilities at very least and tempest one is spamnable, and 3-5 AOE eldritch detonators. You can make your foes panicked all the time with auto-crit on hit from two rogues. 2 rogues with Mercy is necessary to enjoy from nightmare spam . assassin also shatter frozen stuff.
So its rogue quiz with Cassy, Sola's, Cole or Sera. (Or quiz rifted or Templar with both Sera and Cole).
That's how I did my first NM, and it was really great once I understood chaining potential and setup.
And yes, buildsvrequire SB , TF for tempest and SB , TF and DB for assassin as precision detonators.
SB knockdown and CD reduction add a lot to cc-lock chaining ability.

[recyclebin2000]

Another vote for assassin archer. Gross burst damage. Poison for the 25% damage buff (even if the target is immune to poison)->stealth->Hidden blades-> target dead. Auto crit from assassin passive, 25% armor pen from assassin, 50% pen from ambush. Because you killed a target you can stealth again, full stam from "look like it hurt" passive. One shot another with Full Draw. Stealth again one shot a frozen target with Long Shot,

 

Gets really bananas with upgraded lighting cage, as the lightning strikes crit if your strikes crit. So that's 22 crits if you use leaping shot from stealth.

 

While all rogue specs are good, I doubt any are more fun than assassin. True, their focus blows, but that frees up a ability slot. Yay.   

[Blackstork]

I think the tempest is most fun though. That focus + that versatility and effects and comboing. 

[Matth85]

I can't seem to understand the selling point of the Tempest. Well, not counting flask of frost for survivability.

 

1) Flask of fire gives you no CD + no cost for a few seconds. Artificer can get a "weaker" version of this permanent with a good team + crit setup. 

2) Flask of lightning doesn't increase your dps. It just slows down time. In pure dps you do no more than usual, you just slow down the targets dps and your teams dps. How is that beneficial? Not counting the fun-factor. 

* I can see the benefit of having Sera as a tempest, as the time doesn't slow down for me, she just does a million hits a second. Perfect crit machine for my artificer!

 

I am not counting the focus abilities here, as I find them unnecessary. There is not a single point in this game where a focus ability is required to win. Well, unles you want to solo nightmare (props to that guy!), at which it would help against rifts!

 

I really feel Artificer is the hidden gem in DA:I, and is the most misunderstood. People keep talking about traps and what not; That is not the point of artificer. The passives is the key. The fact you can almost run no CD/cost on your long shot makes for some really insane damage output. Sniping off a whole group of enemy long before the tank gets close. Traps are not required unless they give us an even harder difficulty, or you go solo nightmare.

[Anelyn77]

As I mentioned in another thread, to get most out of your Artificer you need to build a specific party setup for him/her. This for me steals from the replay value of the game since it forces you to pick specific party members to get most of your artificer. While both Assassin and Tempest are not plagued by this and function in any party composition.

[Matth85]

As I mentioned in another thread, to get most out of your Artificer you need to build a specific party setup for him/her. This for me steals from the replay value of the game since it forces you to pick specific party members to get most of your artificer. While both Assassin and Tempest are not plagued by this and function in any party composition.

 

But that's besides the point though. The difference between the 3 specialization are marginal, and it's all personal preference. I just get confused when people tell me that tempest is best, and artificer is worse. It's a mere assumption people do because they don't understand the power of Artificer. 

 

From a min/max perspective, excluding focus abilities, I rank:

Archer: Artificer > Assassination > tempest

DW: Assassination > Artificer(I am unsure how efficient this is.. haven't actually tested it!) > tempest

 

From a playtyle perspective I adore Tempest. It means you can change your playstyle from stealthy to pseudo-tanky-dps with some versatility to boot. Artificer also doesn't change your playstyle at all, so that could count as a negative for it. Assassination enforce the stealthy playstyle of rogues.

But at a pure damage perspective, Artificer goes beyond Tempest and sits right next to Assassination. The only reason Assassination goes above is because Masrk of Death works for all the damage done for 8 seconds, which is borderline broken. Without that particular awesome ability, artificer would outshine even assassination.

[Blackstork]

But that's besides the point though. The difference between the 3 specialization are marginal, and it's all personal preference. I just get confused when people tell me that tempest is best, and artificer is worse. It's a mere assumption people do because they don't understand the power of Artificer. 

 

From a min/max perspective, excluding focus abilities, I rank:

Archer: Artificer > Assassination > tempest

DW: Assassination > Artificer(I am unsure how efficient this is.. haven't actually tested it!) > tempest

 

From a playtyle perspective I adore Tempest. It means you can change your playstyle from stealthy to pseudo-tanky-dps with some versatility to boot. Artificer also doesn't change your playstyle at all, so that could count as a negative for it. Assassination enforce the stealthy playstyle of rogues.

But at a pure damage perspective, Artificer goes beyond Tempest and sits right next to Assassination. The only reason Assassination goes above is because Masrk of Death works for all the damage done for 8 seconds, which is borderline broken. Without that particular awesome ability, artificer would outshine even assassination.

You are wrong with your Tempest perspective.  You can not spam stuff like he does, and can not pull long CD abilities spammed. Tempest damage is greater than arty and it is much more safer. From DW perspective i would rank Tempest>Assasin>Arty, because you are dead meat with arty compared to what Tempest do (as DW, in middle of fray), and Assasin damage do not surpass Tempest's so much, while have hard time if have too much foes and gets aggro.

 

Tempest Can: Get in and get out at whim. Can kill stuff without leaving stealth. No class can spam Flank Attack while being alone. Can freeze and shatter stuff. Or just freeze and then fire-flask twin-fang or shadow blade the target.  He is versatile and independent. And have thousand cuts.

 

Crit bonus/Damage bonus of Arty are neglected just by nightmare chaining and having near to constant crit on your rogues.

[Novadove]

imo, few things to note.

 

1) artificer works even with mix party members. truth is I start with 1 tank 2 mage and myself artificer. as long as your party members CRIT, you get refreshed.

it's only having specific members your refresh FASTER. it doesn't mean choosing other favourite characters artificer don't work. being an artificer DOESNT mean all you can choose are certain few characters.

 

2) one cannot compare DW rogue to archer rogue. I have never compare them because 1st, one is melee and the other is range. my perspective is melee rogue will never be as efficient as archer  IN THIS GAME simply because if there is a competition on killing august ram in terms of number per second, melee will always lost to range.

 

And this is the mechanic that dictates playstyles. I wont compare playstyles because that's individual's choice.

 

But in terms of efficiency, I always believe this: The amount of time for a DW rogue to flank and backstab, my arrows will land on it's mark and target in a fraction of second before a dagger found its heart. and this is true for DAI. My arrows fly, your daggers walk. Did I even mention arrows never miss even 100 meters away? heck sometimes they even look like homing missles.

 

3) tempest has cool down whether you play DW or archer. no matter how close the CD is, there is a window period. assuming you invest nothing but tempest tree. lightning flask, 3 skills spammed, 0 stamina. Fire flask, ignore stamina, spam 3 more skill and that's it. Cool down kicks in and you got to wait for lightning or fire flask. that's diminishing return in dps. if my memory serves me correctly, you got yourself at least 6 seconds of cool down before able to flask again

 

however, do remember all these debates are to distinguish whether which spec has that slight advantage over the other specs. it is not to say one is good and the rest sucks.

 

sometimes, some people post because they are seeing from one perspectives and have never really try in-depth on the play style to fully grasp the concept of the build and are quick to dismiss simply because they cant see what they are looking for within the 10 second of controlling the said character.

[Novadove]

to support my point on tempest skill flask CD, bring sera out field. watch her machine gun mobs. then count the amount of time she takes to activate the next machine gun shots.

 

tat's the amount of time a tempest's lightning flask CD.

 

then compare yourself to her output. how many full draw and long shot you have dished out from the beginning till the end between her 2 machine gun shots.

count for yourself.

[Matth85]

You can not spam stuff like he does, and can not pull long CD abilities spammed.

 

Neither can a Tempest Rogue. AS Archer you get, what, 3 Long shots off? As Dual wield you get 4 abilities off? Then you wait for quite a bit. As Artificer you don't wait. it might take a second longer per longshot, but you keep doing it over and over again. 

 

rit bonus/Damage bonus of Arty are neglected just by nightmare chaining and having near to constant crit on your rogues.

 

High crit benefits artificer more than anybody else. Assassin is the only spec that might "lose" on high crit. I speak of the passive that guarantee crit out of stealth. if anything, this point speak for Artificer, not against it.

 

Tempest Can: Get in and get out at whim.

 

Which I agree on. A tempest rogue is the most jack-of-all, and gives you more control of the battlefield. However, killing an enemy is the best escape you get

 

My point in all of this: Artificer is gold. It's not about traps. It's not boring. It's about having near no CD and gain stamina back at an insane rate. It's about having a consistent longshot spam (the time it takes to fire is enough to reset the CD). That's 4k-11k hits every 2-3 seconds sustained. Basically:

 

Assassination: Mark of Death and armor penetration is the only thing I find interesting here. Both are amazing though! A very good specialization, and the highest burst potential. Enforces the stealth - burst - playstyle of rogues.

 

Artificer: Highest sustained DPS. With enough crit you are annihilating the battlefield. It does not change or enforce playstyle. It just is there, making you awesome.

 

Tempest: Flask of fire? Artificer passive is quite a lot better. Flask of lightning? Good for escaping, but not a true dps increase if you control the character. Flask of Frost? Fantastic for survivability!... which is not a problem with a competent team setup. It changes the playstyle from "stealthy" to "I do a bit of everything!", which is nice. Very good for those who do not likes rogues stealty-play.

 

I think all of them are good. However, I do not think tempest beat Artificer in a pure dps match. In fact, I think artificer has the possibility to do the most damage of them all, excluding focus abilities. I also think Artificer is the most underrated and misunderstood specialization in the game. At first glance it seem trap-focused, but then you look at the passives.. traps got nothing to do with it. The synergy between crit, stamina regen and CD reduction is insane.

 

In terms of efficiency, I rank Assassination as best for Dual Wield and Artificer for Archer. Tempest is the special snowflake here, for those who want to change the playstyle, instead of enforcing the one you got without a specialization.

Do note, however, that this is all min/max discussions. The fact we can kill a nightmare dragon in under 30 second is a sign it's all rather irrelevant. Fun, but irrelevant.

 

So. Yeah. Tempest is not godlike. Artificer is not bad. Assassination is brokenly good. Rogue is the master class. 

[Ace Attorney]

Funny, the flavor/theme of the artificer is about creating traps but a lot are saying that isn't about traps.