125 réponses à ce sujet

[_Marjolaine_]

Well, I never really considered DA "real" dark fantasy. When I played DAO I found myself comparing the game with BG2 and NWN2. The Universe was (is) different, but the feeling was similar. Sure, Kelgar got replaced by Oghren (and that makes the DA-verse a tiny bit darker and more realistic), but Forgotten Realms is not Thedas (fortunately).

 

Witcher is dark fantasy (as someone said). The differences are obvious. Exemple: neither Zoltan or Yarpen Zigrin are not the Kelgar or Oghren kind of dwarves. But that's just my opinion (and fixation).    

 

Anyway I think DA was&is an epic high fantasy (DA2 was an aruable exeption IMO) with a nice storytelling. We live in XXI century, we've changed, so FR also changed into Thedas.

 

Also, my English may be bad, but I'm no native to that language.  

 

Edit: ok, the thing the author of that article says about MMO makes some sense to me. DAI is different than DAO. What a surprise! I still think DA games were never a dark fantasy. 

[Ieldra]

I don't fully understand this arugment. Dragon age was never meant to be historically accurate. It is a fantasy setting with countries that are LOOSELY inspired by real countries. That's it.

That's not the problem, it's changing your lore in order to be more politically correct. That the people of Thedas are unconcerned about sexual orientation, that was always present in the setting from the start, and so it's perfectly ok if it continues that way. That there are now people of all ethnicities, that's harder to swallow since there was previously no place where black-skinned people could have come from and no places were added to the setting since then.

 

It's also glossing over bad stuff that can't plausibly be absent. We get many little stories of people's lives presented to us in notes throughout DAI. I'll have to check my Codex to be sure, but IIRC so far none of them (I've about halfway through the game) has even alluded to casual abuse of any kind.

 

I don't have a problem with that as such, but it does mean Dragon Age loses points as a dark fantasy setting. It started being inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire in that. I am not seeing anything of that influence any more.

[StrongMelGibson]

I find myself agreeing completely with the author. Not only that, the adding of people of colour into the game feels like such a huge wasted opportunity too. Why not expand the map and add new kingdoms if there was not enough racial diversity? Something based on ancient african kingdoms like Mali or Songhai for example. New accents, backrounds and history would have been great.

 

Instead, ironically, we get black people, who are paper thin token blacks with no distinctive cultural features or character apart from their skin colour. Change their appearance away, and no one can say who was black and who was not. Same is not true for Antivans, Navarrans, Rivains or Orlaisians.

 

Personally I really liked the city elf start in origins, it was fun to stand up against that kind of evilness. Yet, all that has been replaced with political correctness.

[Ieldra]

Personally I really liked the city elf start in origins, it was fun to stand up against that kind of evilness. Yet, all that has been replaced with political correctness.

Indeed, it's one of my favorite origins, it feels so satisfying to give that jerk what he deserved. I know a few people who feel uncomfortable with the CE origin if playing as a woman, but I can't understand why. You assert your power against the prejudices and evils of the dominant culture, what could be more satisfying? Remove the latter, and your stance becomes weaker. 

[SurelyForth]

I find myself agreeing completely with the author. Not only that, the adding of people of colour into the game feels like such a huge wasted opportunity too. Why not expand the map and add new kingdoms if there was not enough racial diversity? Something based on ancient african kingdoms like Mali or Songhai for example. New accents, backrounds and history would have been great.

 

Instead, ironically, we get black people, who are paper thin token blacks with no distinctive cultural features or character apart from their skin colour. Change their appearance away, and no one can say who was black and who was not. Same is not true for Antivans, Navarrans, Rivains or Orlaisians.

 

Personally I really liked the city elf start in origins, it was fun to stand up against that kind of evilness. Yet, all that has been replaced with political correctness.

 

The Black people in the game are of Rivaini descent- that doesn't mean they have to go around talking about seers and whatever all the time. Vivienne was raised in the Free Marches and Orlais. I'm not certain how you think she should act? Nor do I understand how she's a "token" simply because her physical appearance does not match up with your preconceived notions of how a Black woman in Thedas should act.

 

And I find handwringing about political correctness to be ****ing ridiculous. There are ways to be "dark" without alienating oppressed people, you know, and if Bioware looked at their games and decided that they wanted to make them a positive experience for people who deal with actual racism, sexism, and homophobia every goddamn day of their lives then I congratulate them on a job well done. Thedas is still a world with legalized slavery and deeply ingrained racism and conflicting religious and cultural ideologies that threaten to destroy it. But man, unless it's wall-to-wall scrungy white dudes, decapitations, and sexual violence then it's just pandering to the *flails hands* Almighty Social Justice Warriors. 

[Ieldra]

There are ways to be "dark" without alienating oppressed people, you know, and if Bioware looked at their games and decided that they wanted to make them a positive experience for people who deal with actual racism, sexism, and homophobia every goddamn day of their lives then I congratulate them on a job well done. Thedas is still a world with legalized slavery and deeply ingrained racism and conflicting religious and cultural ideologies that threaten to destroy it. But man, unless it's wall-to-wall scrungy white dudes, decapitations, and sexual violence then it's just pandering to the *flails hands* Almighty Social Justice Warriors. 

You see, the thing is that I find it rather more satisfying to be able the challenge existing evils reminiscent of those in the real world with words and action, rather than not having them present in the setting. It makes a much stronger statement IMO.

 

I also take issue with the statement that making a world where <insert ethnicity> doesn't exist means offending oppressed people. As opposed to sexual orientations, which exist anywhere where people are basically human, ethnicities are very much an aspect of local culture and biology, and these can differ between settings. IMO, anyone who's offended by that has a stick up their ass. if you want to make a statement against racism, play a city elf Warden in DAO and save the world. That'll show them all, better than anything else a game could ever do by being more politically correct.

[panda_express12]

(DA: Origins spoiler ahead)

 

I liked in Origins how it had explored some of the darker aspects of humanity. For example, the City Elf origin and the implied rape of Shani if you decide to take the bribe from the lord. Also the slavery of elves and how you could pretty much sell them to the Tevinter slave traders for support in the landsmeet. Hell, in the Mass Effect series you can genocide two entire species if you want.

 

It is nice to see developers who push aside political correctness and show the horrors committed by people of all kinds throughout our history as a species.

[Meatbaggins]

That's not the problem, it's changing your lore in order to be more politically correct. That the people of Thedas are unconcerned about sexual orientation, that was always present in the setting from the start, and so it's perfectly ok if it continues that way. That there are now people of all ethnicities, that's harder to swallow since there was previously no place where black-skinned people could have come from and no places were added to the setting since then.

 

Actually, black Thedosians are of Rivaini heritage. Rivainis are described in lore as having skin ranging from tan to ebony.

 

It's also glossing over bad stuff that can't plausibly be absent. We get many little stories of people's lives presented to us in notes throughout DAI. I'll have to check my Codex to be sure, but IIRC so far none of them (I've about halfway through the game) has even alluded to casual abuse of any kind

 

I'm not far into the game, but nothing I've seen suggests that racism and oppression are absent from the world. For example, if you talk to Solas in Haven, he talks about the plight of the elves. Oppresion still exists in Thedas. Maybe it's less of a focus in DA:I, but that doesn't mean that the writers removed it or that it's a matter of "political correctness". Not every entry in the series has to be focused on the same themes.

[DangerKips]

If anything I felt more like I was playing a sequel to Origins than DA2 with the art style and darkness of the story. Not sure what the author of that article is on about.

Actually, the article was about how political correctness can and does encroach upon creative liberties.

This is part of the reason why games, despite being more mainstream now, are still rather infantile in terms of writing compared to movies or literature. Games are still primarily targeted at a teenage audience, and so the publishers/developers are inclined to "baby-proof" their games to get a preferred rating with rating agencies like the ESRB to maximize sales.

As someone who values good games as highly as good books this is a little disappointing but somewhat understandable. Still, I would like to see the gaming industry grow beyond games just being for "nerdy kids" into a respectable art-form. Given that the average age of a gamer is around 30 years old now, the need to be coddled and shielded from the realities of the big bad world is unjustified.

Not saying every game should be dark, gritty and "realistic" but there should be at least some that dare broach some more mature subjects in a worthwhile fashion, and not simply avoid such things for fear of offending someone.

All in all that was a pretty interesting article to read!

[Silcron]

I don't think DA is losing points as a dark fantasy. It never was a dark fantasy just marketed as such. It's more of a high fantasy setting with realism thrown into it. For example: let's put in high fantasy mages, now, how would people react to them realistically?

Also that whole "women in power is rare in Thedas" is bollocks, the writer must have forgotten about the Chantry. Also since the beggining there have been female warriors.

What happens is that we're not focusing this time around on abuse of power or racism. I don't know what exactly is focusing on (main storyline wise I just got Skyhold, so I'm not that far ahead) but the world seems mostly the same. The only jarring thing I found so far is at Redcliff, I won't spoil it, it's the main story mission there.

[StrongMelGibson]

The Black people in the game are of Rivaini descent- that doesn't mean they have to go around talking about seers and whatever all the time. Vivienne was raised in the Free Marches and Orlais. I'm not certain how you think she should act? Nor do I understand how she's a "token" simply because her physical appearance does not match up with your preconceived notions of how a Black woman in Thedas should act.

 

And I find handwringing about political correctness to be ****ing ridiculous. There are ways to be "dark" without alienating oppressed people, you know, and if Bioware looked at their games and decided that they wanted to make them a positive experience for people who deal with actual racism, sexism, and homophobia every goddamn day of their lives then I congratulate them on a job well done. Thedas is still a world with legalized slavery and deeply ingrained racism and conflicting religious and cultural ideologies that threaten to destroy it. But man, unless it's wall-to-wall scrungy white dudes, decapitations, and sexual violence then it's just pandering to the *flails hands* Almighty Social Justice Warriors. 

 

I know this is fairly emotional subject, but you seem to be missing my point. Vivienne certainly isn't token and come to think of it, there is maybe one another black character I have encountered in the game so far that isn't one aswell. But the rest of the blacks certainly are. When they are in Fereldren, they talk like Fereldrans, when they are in Orlais, they talk like Orlaisians. But for example when "mediterranean" looking Antivans are in Fereldren, they still talk with their silly accents. Why can we not have the same for blacks? Why do they need to be pasted in such a different manner?

 

As I said, it was a wasted opportunity. All around it could have been so much more better and realistic. They could have created real backgrounds for black kingdoms. And have Vivienne (or whoever) tell about those places with pride. And people from there could speak with overly simplified accents like Orlaisians or Navarrans.

 

I don't know, I like my games to be bit more realistic. I don't feel particularly alienated by a game with racism despite facing racism outside of it. I would certainly like to see more darker themes in the game along with the "politically correct dark themes" like violence.

[Flog the Undying]

I know this is fairly emotional subject, but you seem to be missing my point. Vivienne certainly isn't token and come to think of it, there is maybe one another black character I have encountered in the game so far that isn't one aswell. But the rest of the blacks certainly are. When they are in Fereldren, they talk like Fereldrans, when they are in Orlais, they talk like Orlaisians. But for example when "mediterranean" looking Antivans are in Fereldren, they still talk with their silly accents. Why can we not have the same for blacks? Why do they need to be pasted in such a different manner?

 

As I said, it was a wasted opportunity. All around it could have been so much more better and realistic. They could have created real backgrounds for black kingdoms. And have Vivienne (or whoever) tell about those places with pride. And people from there could speak with overly simplified accents like Orlaisians or Navarrans.

 

I don't know, I like my games to be bit more realistic. I don't feel particularly alienated by a game with racism despite facing racism outside of it. I would certainly like to see more darker themes in the game along with the "politically correct dark themes" like violence.

 

Humans didn't evolve in Thedas.

 

Black people are just as likely to be from Ferelden as from Orlais or whatever, and they certainly wouldn't have different accents.

[Uccio]

 

Personally I really liked the city elf start in origins, it was fun to stand up against that kind of evilness. Yet, all that has been replaced with political correctness.

 

That was my favourite too in terms of racial/abuse tension. I could not wait to get my hands on the bastard lordling and tell him all I want is his head for taking my bride (or as a female). Indeed. That is why I love Witcher games. I always team up with the elves and dwarves in their struggle for freedom. The setting is just so gruesome not to do otherwise. It gives a lot of satisfaction to be part of it.

[Bod02]

Very refreshing article in this PC age. He seems slightly overzealous on rape but his take on ethnicities are spot on, and one would think him being a self professed person of colour he's qualified to have that opinion.

 

Actually, black Thedosians are of Rivaini heritage. Rivainis are described in lore as having skin ranging from tan to ebony.

Tan or ebony skin doesn't make someone black. The black rivain thing really feels like a retcon. Compare Duncan and Isabella to Vivienne. They seemed to be progressing down the skin hue slider as they go along. Duncan defnitely looks white while Isabella could pass as either an olived skinned white person or someone from an ethnicity with phenotypes similar to whites. Vivienne on the other hand is not only extremely dark, she has very defined afro-looking features like her nose and lips, in fact I'm sure they modelled her after an actual person with afro roots. I still don't know why they changed her eyes blue seemingly just shortly before release though.

 

Like he said: "everyone with a skin colour darker than tan (that is to say, Arab/Persian looking, Native American looking, East Asian looking, South Asian looking, Indian looking, and African looking) all have heritage from the one tiny nation in Thedas that is not light-white (Rivain), thus shoehorning all the 'POC' into one little country".

[StrongMelGibson]

Humans didn't evolve in Thedas.

 

Black people are just as likely to be from Ferelden as from Orlais or whatever, and they certainly wouldn't have different accents.

 

If that is the explanation. Why aren't the rest of the different peoples in Thedas mixed like that? There are and have been some clear predominant racial differences between people from various kingdoms.

[Hazegurl]

I sort of stop reading after the small rant about POC not existing in medieval Europe. I really hate it when people feel the need to publicly state something without doing any sort of research. Didn't his history teacher teach him anything about The Silk Road??

[Ponendus]

Thedas =/= Our Medieval History

[Panda]

I haven't played the game yet but although writer has put some though in the article I actually prefer that there is not mass rapes in the DAI or sth similar. I don't want to be umcomfortable when playing. To me dark fantasy of DAO become from broodmothers and werewolves being cursed etc. Not from horrible things human do each other in IRL as well. I don't want misogyny (as my female character being inferior, that's opposite what I want from game) nor gang rapes in the game, that's not I'm looking for. I agree that I'd prefer BW making DAI more grey than black and white since I think DA2 was not grey enough either.

 

EDIT: Actually I feel like ME3 so far has given me most grey choice and that was choosing between Geth and Quarian's since I didn't feel like there was morally right and morally wrong choice in that one.

[Damazig]

Yes Origins was darker, and not just cause of a brown shade over it. The whole style of the game was darker, with alot more blood, and more focused on the gore and violence, and if people don't want to see it that way, it's fine, but go look at Origins again, look at the DA LOGOS, look at the trailers... you really don't see a difference to a darker art style?...

 

Go look at the art style of Baldurs Gate, or NeverWinter Nights 2, that was Bioware's main style back then, like it or not, it changed ALOT with EA and with the Doctors leaving.  The Bioware Social network was black, now it's white.

 

Origins trailer: 

 

Dark tone, violent and gory, bioware written in blood, blood on the characters face, blood on the enemies and all over the ground... even the music (yes even the marilyn manson music at the end hehe "this is the new ****")

 

 

Inquisition trailer: 

 

Much lighter, little to no blood even though they are fighting demons, much less gore, alot more vibrant colours and the music The Phantoms - Into the Darkness.. lightness

 

Preferrences aside, there is a distinct difference between the tone and the style of both games.

[jtav]

I disagree with the article as regards to rape. Here's the thing: BW did not handle rape very well in Origins, It was shorthand for "this is the bad guy and our setting is so dark and edgy" instead of being engaged with in a meaningful way. All it accomplished was making CE unplayable and making me cringe at other points. So the "santized" version is vastly preferable.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I'm pretty sure they stopped covering everything in blood because they realised it was juvenile and looked silly. The bloodspatter and everything being brown did are not the things that made Origins darker than Inquisition, assuming it is. (I don't have a fully-formed opinion on that since I haven't finished DAI yet, but I've found plenty of dark stuff in the game so far.)

[Flog the Undying]

If that is the explanation. Why aren't the rest of the different peoples in Thedas mixed like that? There are and have been some clear predominant racial differences between people from various kingdoms.

 

There aren't really many racial differences in terms of geography. The only one I can think of is darker skin in Rivain. Perhaps when humans colonised Thedas in tribes, there happened to be a tribe from a place with lots of black people which was the first to colonise rivain, hence the ancestors are darker skinned generally.

 

In the previous engine it was hard to make POC. That is no longer the case.

[PhroXenGold]

I don't really see how throwing blood and gore at something makes it dark (if anything they made Origins look childish). The darkness of a setting comes not from the number of gallons of blood you see on screen, nor even the colour pallette used, it comes from the characters, and the stories, it comes from the way people and things act and react. You can easily have very dark settings where everything looks bright and cheerful. The heart of darkness is candy coated (imaginary cookie for those that get the reference).

 

Overall, I'd say Thedas is a pretty dark setting. The world is not a nice place to live in. We see opression and prejudice. We see war and it's brutality. We see a world on the brink of destruction.

 

But yet, despite that, I consider Origins to not actually be that dark. Why? The story. Ultimately, depsite the darkness of the world it takes place in, the main plot of DA:O is remarkably optimistic. Yes, bad things can and do happenover the course of the game, but in the end, our intrepid hero can unite the people of Ferelden and lead his merry band to save the day from the forces of darkness. Throw in the ritual and this can happen pretty much without cost. There's no negative consequences to your actions. There's no sacrifices. Sure, you can play in a way that involves taking darker decisions, but in a truly dark story, you would have to do so - or at least, if you didn't, there would be major consequences. DA:O's story is a heroic fairytale, that happens to be set in a crapsack world. Of course, that isn't neccesarily a bad thing, as indeed, it's a well told and enjoyable story. There's a place for idealism, for escapism. Not everything has to be grimdark. And in many ways, putting such an optimistic story in such a harsh world makes its message even greater - that even among such horrors, there is light.

 

DA2, by comparison, IMO, is a much darker story (and before someone jumps in here, I'm simply talking about the underlying plot and not taking notice of any flaws in its implemetation). In the end, Hawke can't save the day, Kirkwall will collapse into conflict no matter what he does. There's no idealistic happy endings, there's no triumph of heroism over darkness. Sometimes all you can do is give your best, only to find that your best simply isn't good enough to save everyone. You can help, you can make things less bad than they might have been, but in the end, you're just a man, and there's a limit on what one man can do. It's a much darker, more realistic outcome than Origins.

[Blackstork]

the whole op title statement (which is linked article statement) is complete bullshit. Its same level of darkness, just less brown greasy shaders.

[Hazegurl]

I know this is fairly emotional subject, but you seem to be missing my point. Vivienne certainly isn't token and come to think of it, there is maybe one another black character I have encountered in the game so far that isn't one aswell. But the rest of the blacks certainly are. When they are in Fereldren, they talk like Fereldrans, when they are in Orlais, they talk like Orlaisians. But for example when "mediterranean" looking Antivans are in Fereldren, they still talk with their silly accents. Why can we not have the same for blacks? Why do they need to be pasted in such a different manner?

 

As I said, it was a wasted opportunity. All around it could have been so much more better and realistic. They could have created real backgrounds for black kingdoms. And have Vivienne (or whoever) tell about those places with pride. And people from there could speak with overly simplified accents like Orlaisians or Navarrans.

 

I don't know, I like my games to be bit more realistic. I don't feel particularly alienated by a game with racism despite facing racism outside of it. I would certainly like to see more darker themes in the game along with the "politically correct dark themes" like violence.

You are basing your argument on way to many assumptions. How long have blacks been in Fereldan? Do you know? Most of the orlesians we have encountered in game were not in Fereldan or the free marches for very long.  Leliana came to Fereldan to hide, Fenrayal's father had just arrived in Kirkwall, Zevran was in Fereldan to kill the Warden. The only Orlesians who still had their accent that I believe have been in Kirkwall for a long time were the noble family in that quest to track down the mages.  So then could it be that most of the blacks in Fereldan are just...Fereldan.