Aller au contenu

Photo

How Bioware turned Dragon Age from a 'Dark European Fantasy' into a High Fantasy Wonderland


  • Ce sujet est fermé Ce sujet est fermé
125 réponses à ce sujet

#76
Lebanese Dude

Lebanese Dude
  • Members
  • 5 545 messages

Ya, if you're a woman or a black person, you won't face discrimination or prejudice in Thedas. Dragon age is becoming a little insipid.

I agree with this article whole-heartedly. It seems that the Bioware writers don't want to accidentally offend anyone so they try their best to liberalize all they can.

Why are their black people in the first place? The excuse that POC come from Rivian is poor. Rivian is based like all of Thedas on Medieval Europe. I'd much rather prefer a kingdom or nation that is entirely Black, and not lump all POC into Rivian which seems very jarring.

Also why are their plenty of "Rivainis" in Ferelden? It looks like a consci

notsureifserious.jpg



#77
Dutch

Dutch
  • Members
  • 414 messages
Sorry Im on a phone and can't edit my post.

To conclude, it looks like they consciously added black folks in Ferelden and Orlais so Vivienne wouldn't be the Black sheep of the game. Otherwise Rivianis sure like to move a lot, no?

#78
DemGeth

DemGeth
  • Members
  • 1 657 messages
Confusing fantasy world and history is pretty funny.

Thank you for linking the article was good for a laugh.

#79
Dutch

Dutch
  • Members
  • 414 messages
Thedas is a very happy place with equality and liberal ideology. Everybody gets along with Everybody except for the knife-ears.
  • Bod02 aime ceci

#80
Dutch

Dutch
  • Members
  • 414 messages
Hopefully Dragon Age 4 is more geared toward being dark and gritty.

#81
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 284 messages

Yeah.. they seem to have concentrated all of their hate onto pointy ears...

 

Or mages.  Or Qunari.  Or casteless dwarves.  Or shemlen.  Or dog-lords.  Or Orlesians...

 

 

Exactly. Show of hands who has a problem with the Redguards from the Elder Scrolls? Or better yet make games set in Africa, India etc. with entirely no white people rather than constantly doing fantasy europe.

 

Who says they won't eventually?  Thedas is one continent.  WHo knows what else is out there?  I mean, the Qunari had to come from somewhere, right?


  • legbamel aime ceci

#82
Iakus

Iakus
  • Members
  • 30 284 messages

I have no idea what the complaint is about rape in game. DAO had rape and so did DA2.  Remember Alain and Ser Alrik??? Bt no rape in Inquisition means rape is no longer in this world? wtf :blink:

Heck remember the entire start of the City Elf origin in DAO?

 

It's this whole dark=deep mentality that drove ME3 off a cliff :sick:


  • Doctor Mukora aime ceci

#83
Lebanese Dude

Lebanese Dude
  • Members
  • 5 545 messages

Thedas is a very happy place with equality and liberal ideology. Everybody gets along with Everybody except for the knife-ears.

 

Ah yes.

 

Templars were kept in check by lyrium addiction.

Mages are forced into concentration camps at a young age.

Human territories are at constant war with each other.

Dwarves have those who the government and main population do not recognize as people (casteless)
Qunari are supremacist neo-communists

Elves survive off a tribal socialist structure.

 

Everyone loves everyone.


  • PhroXenGold aime ceci

#84
Muspade

Muspade
  • Members
  • 1 280 messages
I hate everyone equally.

#85
rak72

rak72
  • Members
  • 2 299 messages

It seems to me that the author of that article REALLY REALLY REALLY wants to see more rape in his game ... a little creepy, that.

 

As to his point about nobody clamoring for more people of color, there WERE a lot of people complaining about the lack of people with color in the old game.  I am liking the added diversity, and the new Afrocentric character models look very nice.



#86
Dusk Wolf

Dusk Wolf
  • Members
  • 69 messages

Before this thread gets locked...how I read that article means its author says Bioware adding persons of color in Thedas is a retcon whereas some may consider the lack of other races being represented could be consider racially insensitive. On the topic of it being a "dark European fantasy" I like to think the danger lurking is implied rather than being blatantly obvious. The article was hard for me to read because there's some poor grammar which kind of weakens it some but oh well. I'm enjoying the game for what it is rather than pointing out its faults right now. 


  • Bod02 aime ceci

#87
Kappa Neko

Kappa Neko
  • Members
  • 2 328 messages

I don't really see how throwing blood and gore at something makes it dark (if anything they made Origins look childish). The darkness of a setting comes not from the number of gallons of blood you see on screen, nor even the colour pallette used, it comes from the characters, and the stories, it comes from the way people and things act and react. You can easily have very dark settings where everything looks bright and cheerful. The heart of darkness is candy coated (imaginary cookie for those that get the reference).

Overall, I'd say Thedas is a pretty dark setting. The world is not a nice place to live in. We see opression and prejudice. We see war and it's brutality. We see a world on the brink of destruction.

But yet, despite that, I consider Origins to not actually be that dark. Why? The story. Ultimately, depsite the darkness of the world it takes place in, the main plot of DA:O is remarkably optimistic. Yes, bad things can and do happenover the course of the game, but in the end, our intrepid hero can unite the people of Ferelden and lead his merry band to save the day from the forces of darkness. Throw in the ritual and this can happen pretty much without cost. There's no negative consequences to your actions. There's no sacrifices. Sure, you can play in a way that involves taking darker decisions, but in a truly dark story, you would have to do so - or at least, if you didn't, there would be major consequences. DA:O's story is a heroic fairytale, that happens to be set in a crapsack world. Of course, that isn't neccesarily a bad thing, as indeed, it's a well told and enjoyable story. There's a place for idealism, for escapism. Not everything has to be grimdark. And in many ways, putting such an optimistic story in such a harsh world makes its message even greater - that even among such horrors, there is light.

DA2, by comparison, IMO, is a much darker story (and before someone jumps in here, I'm simply talking about the underlying plot and not taking notice of any flaws in its implemetation). In the end, Hawke can't save the day, Kirkwall will collapse into conflict no matter what he does. There's no idealistic happy endings, there's no triumph of heroism over darkness. Sometimes all you can do is give your best, only to find that your best simply isn't good enough to save everyone. You can help, you can make things less bad than they might have been, but in the end, you're just a man, and there's a limit on what one man can do. It's a much darker, more realistic outcome than Origins.


So much THIS!
Yes, DAO was dark. It looked dark through the art style and it dealt with some serious twisted stuff. But I agree that it was far more optimistic and heroic than DA2. And I got the feeling that many people did not appreciate a game where the hero FAILS in the end. I know that the majority of complaints were directed at the map recycling and streamlining. And rightly so. But many strongly disliked the story too. Because you have no control over your companions' actions in the end. That was the impression I had anyway.
I never understood what's bad about having a hero watching helplessly as everything goes to ****. It felt refreshing to me. In DAO you knew from the beginning that you would defeat the archdemon. It comes at a sacrifice. But from the start you know that you're screwed as a warden. Your job is a suicide mission. That *is* dark.
But not as dark as the mage rebellion that started in DA2 and is in full bloom now.
I thought Hawks would restore order somehow. Nope! You see the tragedy with Anders coming but you can't talk him down. That's really gloomy stuff. How the world looks can add to it but it would be just as gloomy if the church got blown up in a daisy field.

I've always loved the mage/templar conflict for it's complexity and reflection of reality. DAI actually feels almost uncomfortably close to real life these days with the way everything is becoming radicalized. All this terrorism as a response to oppression. Thedas is playing this out as a fictional scenario. And just like real life it's shades of gray. And very depressing.

Emotionally I was felt more removed from DAO's story. It felt very much like video game fantasy. There are no archdemons in real life. I felt for the characters but Darkborn storyline was meh. All this racism and fear in Thedas however feels very real.

So yeah, DAI LOOKS more colorful. No rape scenes. It's not about the oppression of women this time. Not so much about the elves either. That got dealt with.
The focus is full force on this civil war. And it's an incredibly ugly thing. It's depressing to see so much resentment and fear directed at pretty much everyone. It's far darker to see people kill each other over religion and superstition than seeing people get slaughtered by orcs. To me anyway. Because it's what's happening every day in real life. Adding tons of rape scenarios and women being beaten to death might have been a bit too much. DAI is plenty dark to me...
  • PhroXenGold, andy6915 et legbamel aiment ceci

#88
Bod02

Bod02
  • Members
  • 299 messages

Thedas is a very happy place with equality and liberal ideology. Everybody gets along with Everybody except for the knife-ears.

Think of the children. They could poke their eyes out



#89
Nerevar-as

Nerevar-as
  • Members
  • 5 375 messages

Ah yes.

 

Templars were kept in check by lyrium addiction.

Mages are forced into concentration camps at a young age.

Human territories are at constant war with each other.

Dwarves have those who the government and main population do not recognize as people (casteless)
Qunari are supremacist neo-communists

Elves survive off a tribal socialist structure.

 

Everyone loves everyone.

But skin color is not important (and why should it when you actually have other different races to treat like rubbish?), and no sexism either. This last one is starting to get annoying though, I remember how in the last Tomb raider the devs said they´d avoided the "b" word, when the enemies, who had regressed to tribal level, were actively doing their best to kill Lara, but no reason to hurt her feelingsalong the way.

 

That said, DA is high fantasy the moment you leave Lothering, so nothing new there.



#90
Joseph Warrick

Joseph Warrick
  • Members
  • 1 290 messages

I don't understand why people find mass rape appealing in stories. It's not thought provoking. It's doesn't challenge my values. A mass rapist is a flat character, unequivocally evil. In the city elf origin the dude even had an evil laugh. That's not a deep exploration of anything. Mass rape doesn't make me reconsider or reframe anything.

 

Lack a conflict in your setting? Need someone to get killed for Tuesday? Add a mass rapist. Done. You've got your villain. Easiest trick ever. It's the story equivalent of a large explosion.

 

It only provides shock value. People can't tell the difference between shocking and interesting.

 

As for Europe, this is medieval Europe too.


  • Xiomara, Doctor Mukora, Rainbow Wyvern et 1 autre aiment ceci

#91
Medhia_Nox

Medhia_Nox
  • Members
  • 3 530 messages

I think people who make commentaries about "European fantasy" should educate themselves on "European history" a little better. 


  • The Loyal Nub aime ceci

#92
nici2412

nici2412
  • Members
  • 682 messages

But skin color is not important (and why should it when you actually have other different races to treat like rubbish?), and no sexism either. This last one is starting to get annoying though, I remember how in the last Tomb raider the devs said they´d avoided the "b" word, when the enemies, who had regressed to tribal level, were actively doing their best to kill Lara, but no reason to hurt her feelingsalong the way.

 

That said, DA is high fantasy the moment you leave Lothering, so nothing new there.

 
Bioware  is just trying to be as politically correct as possible and trying to not offend anyone.That's why they want from trying to do a game of thrones like rpg to a disneyque lord of the rings rpg like Inqusition. Compare it two their last two games:

- no brothels any more, origins and II had them

- no desire demons anymore, origins and II had them

- about 30% of the ferelden population is black now, although ferelden is heavily inspired by mediaeval england and in orgins there was not a single black character (correct me if I'm wrong)

- There is war and chaos everywhere in thedas and one thing we know is that with every war there is always sexual violence. Although it was present in Origins (elf origin story) and thematized in II (Fenris) it seems rape magically disappeared from thedas in inqusition

- racism is a non issue in Inqusition

- Almost every female character in the game is dressed like a nun. I think besides Vivienne and Morrigan there is no female character showing any skin. Most cleavage and skin we see are from Varric and Iron Bull.(and Morrigan) And I'm not talking about warriors. I'm talking about normal npcs citizens.Suprised they didn't dress them in burkas (maybe Dragon Age 4?)
 

I wouldn't be surprised of Bioware got a list from the tumblr crowd which explains what they are allowed to show in their game and they decided to follow this list. At least most of the changes in comparison to Origins and II indicate that.



#93
PhroXenGold

PhroXenGold
  • Members
  • 1 854 messages

But skin color is not important (and why should it when you actually have other different races to treat like rubbish?), and no sexism either. This last one is starting to get annoying though, I remember how in the last Tomb raider the devs said they´d avoided the "b" word, when the enemies, who had regressed to tribal level, were actively doing their best to kill Lara, but no reason to hurt her feelingsalong the way.

 

That said, DA is high fantasy the moment you leave Lothering, so nothing new there.

 

As you say, why should skin colour matter when there's others to hate? In our world, people discriminate against people with non-white skin due to the fact that they're different. In Thedas, when you have Elves, Dwarves and Qunari, a human with different skin colour simply doesn't appear that different to you. Add to this, that it would seem that the non-white humans in the Andrastean nations are well integrated, and likely have been for some considerable time, the lack of significant human-human racism based on skin colour is pretty logical (and just to note, there is still plenty of discrimination based on nationality and birthplace).

 

And why should there be sexism? Just because it happened in our world, doesn't mean that it should always exist in other settings. In a world where the single most iconic person to have ever lived is a woman, it makes perfect sense that there is much more sexual equality. Throw in the fact that, in Thedas' history, there are examples of women actively fighting to achieve the equality the have in the Dragon Age, and I really can't see what the problem is. 

 

Just beacuse Thedas takes some inspiration from our history, doesn't mean it has to religiously follow it. As long as the setting is internally consistent - which, as far as I can tell, it is - then I really can't see the problem here. If DA was actually set in early 17th century Germany, then yes, I would have serious issues about it's portrayal the world. But it's not.

 

There is plenty of bad **** that happens in Thedas. Just because it's different bad **** to that which happened in our history doesn't make it some kind of happy carebear liberal paradise.


  • andy6915 et Xiomara aiment ceci

#94
Sasie

Sasie
  • Members
  • 222 messages

Two things in that article makes me wonder if the author actually played a Bioware game to begin with. It really wasn't.

"Origins portrayed a world that was in many ways deeply misogynistic." - It really wasn't.
 

"the vast majority of rulers are males, and society remains generally patriarchal, though not to the extent where a female Warden's progress is significantly impeded upon, presumably because Bioware couldn't be bothered to tell two separate storylines."

No... Just no. Dragon Age never been like the Witcher and if it was inspired by Games of Thrones they did a horrible job showing it. If anything the setting is/was matriarchal due to the Chantry and the religions founded around Andraste. I'm not even going to go into how silly the rest is but the Bioware writers always seems to have promoted gender equality and made no secret of it as well. I think this author just wanted another game and used 1-2 examples he could find to justify his argument that they should have put more rape into Inquisition. 

Look people (those who agree with the author), you can have your Game of Thrones and the Witcher but don't complain and try to turn every universe into the same grim dark thing by claiming it's 'realistic'. Dragon Age was simply never that kind of game.


  • PhroXenGold, Kappa Neko, Xiomara et 2 autres aiment ceci

#95
Xiomara

Xiomara
  • Members
  • 128 messages

I think there is enough horrible treatment of women, racism and rape in the real world without it invading my escapist fantasy thanks very much. Origins had one cardboard cut-out rapist villain complete with evil laugh, stop acting like it was The Last House on The Left or something. Jeez, people on the internet are creepy.


  • Doctor Mukora aime ceci

#96
Medhia_Nox

Medhia_Nox
  • Members
  • 3 530 messages

I think the vast majority of people who crave "dark fantasy" have a very limited experience with real trauma in their own lives.  

 


  • PhroXenGold aime ceci

#97
nici2412

nici2412
  • Members
  • 682 messages

Two things in that article makes me wonder if the author actually played a Bioware game to begin with. It really wasn't.

"Origins portrayed a world that was in many ways deeply misogynistic." - It really wasn't.
 

"the vast majority of rulers are males, and society remains generally patriarchal, though not to the extent where a female Warden's progress is significantly impeded upon, presumably because Bioware couldn't be bothered to tell two separate storylines."

No... Just no. Dragon Age never been like the Witcher and if it was inspired by Games of Thrones they did a horrible job showing it. If anything the setting is/was matriarchal due to the Chantry and the religions founded around Andraste. I'm not even going to go into how silly the rest is but the Bioware writers always seems to have promoted gender equality and made no secret of it as well. I think this author just wanted another game and used 1-2 examples he could find to justify his argument that they should have put more rape into Inquisition. 

Look people (those who agree with the author), you can have your Game of Thrones and the Witcher but don't complain and try to turn every universe into the same grim dark thing by claiming it's 'realistic'. Dragon Age was simply never that kind of game.

Except it's exactly the other way around. Origins and II had a lot of these  social issues. So the Dragon Age franchise was always meant to be a series which features them. Dragon Age was meant to be dark and gritty. Inqusition seems to get rid of most of it. That's what I'm addressing and saying that I don't like the way the series is going.`You can like it, that's fine but don't pretent the series was always like this. And please "another dark grim universe"? Seriously? How many dark, gritty rpgs (addressing ussies like racism, sexuel violence, incest etc) fantasy universes/games  are there in comparison to tolkiens "lets pretent there are no social issues" ones?



#98
PhroXenGold

PhroXenGold
  • Members
  • 1 854 messages

Look people (those who agree with the author), you can have your Game of Thrones and the Witcher but don't complain and try to turn every universe into the same grim dark thing by claiming it's 'realistic'. Dragon Age was simply never that kind of game.

 

To be fair, neither Game of Thrones or the Witcher are that relastic when it comes to the "dark" aspects of the worldbuilding and storytelling. Both are horribly tame compared to what actually happened in history...



#99
PhroXenGold

PhroXenGold
  • Members
  • 1 854 messages

Except it's exactly the other way around. Origins and II had a lot of these  social issues. So the Dragon Age franchise was always meant to be a series which features them. Dragon Age was meant to be dark and gritty. Inqusition seems to get rid of most of it. That's what I'm addressing and saying that I don't like the way the series is going.`You can like it, that's fine but don't pretent the series was always like this. And please "another dark grim universe"? Seriously? How many dark, gritty rpgs (addressing ussies like racism, sexuel violence, incest etc) fantasy universes/games  are there in comparison to tolkiens "lets pretent there are no social issues" ones?

 

I'm really curious what issues DA:I has cut out. Beyond not having a quest that specifically involves rape, I can't think of any.



#100
StrongMelGibson

StrongMelGibson
  • Members
  • 29 messages

You are basing your argument on way to many assumptions. How long have blacks been in Fereldan? Do you know? Most of the orlesians we have encountered in game were not in Fereldan or the free marches for very long.  Leliana came to Fereldan to hide, Fenrayal's father had just arrived in Kirkwall, Zevran was in Fereldan to kill the Warden. The only Orlesians who still had their accent that I believe have been in Kirkwall for a long time were the noble family in that quest to track down the mages.  So then could it be that most of the blacks in Fereldan are just...Fereldan.

 

The problem is, I don't find that exactly believable storytelling either. I mean, the longer the blacks have been living in Ferelden, the less there should be. If skin colour doesn't matter, there should be a lot more crossbreeding but somehow one large group of people, the result of blacks and whites having fun in the bedroom together, almost shines with its absent. The mix of the two seems to be a lot more rare than white or black.

 

But to be honest, I haven't really read much lore outside of the game. There isn't really any story in regards to people of colour in Dragon Age games. Ferelden was almost exclusively white drawing parallels from medieval Europe in Origins and in Inquisition racial mixture in the societies seems to be modelled after modern states. Vivienne is good character, it is very good there are blacks in the game, but I would like to have a believable story behind them than to just appear to the world as paper thin tokens in between games breaking the image Bioware has given in earlier games. I still think it was such a huge missed opportunity they didn't add new Kingdoms with rich history and background involving those with different skin pigmentation.

 

Anyway, lot of people seem to be confusing believable storytelling and historical accuracy aswell.


  • Bod02 aime ceci