125 réponses à ce sujet

[Bod02]

In Thedas, when you have Elves, Dwarves and Qunari, a human with different skin colour simply doesn't appear that different to you.

We have dwarves. And elves are just pointy eared white people. It's less jarring in the Elder Scrolls because elves are much more different from all the human races than Imperials are to Redguards, each "race" has a consistent phenotype with their own long history, geography, and culture and also the biggest racism stems from elves toward the subjucated beast like races. Just so much better done than dragon age.

 

 

I wish bioware would do an elder scrolls game

[Lennard Testarossa]

I think there is enough horrible treatment of women, racism and rape in the real world without it invading my escapist fantasy thanks very much. Origins had one cardboard cut-out rapist villain complete with evil laugh, stop acting like it was The Last House on The Left or something. Jeez, people on the internet are creepy.

 

Well, Dragon Age being escapism is rather the point. It tends to only include bad things which they don't think might hurt the feelings of their audience. And that's why it isn't anywhere close to being 'Dark Fantasy'.

 

I think the vast majority of people who crave "dark fantasy" have a very limited experience with real trauma in their own lives.  

 

How is that at all relevant to the question of whether or not Dragon Age is 'Dark Fantasy'?

 

 

Dragon Age is pretty much pure escapism. Its societies aren't anywhere close to being believable medieval-type societies. It features a massively cleaned up version of medieval life, and it does this in order to enable everyone to play their game and feel like a hero without being bothered by the insecurities they bring with them. This isn't something they introduced with Inquisition. Origins was a 'be the hero to save the world from an ancient evil'-type of game after all.

 

It's perfectly fine for a fantasy game to feature a realistic/plausible world, but it's also fine for other games to feature escapist worlds. Dragon Age is and always was an escapist world.

[Lebanese Dude]

We have dwarves. And elves are just pointy eared white people. It's less jarring in the Elder Scrolls because elves are much more different from all the human races than Imperials are to Redguards, each "race" has a consistent phenotype with their own long history, geography, and culture and also the biggest racism stems from elves toward the subjucated beast like races. Just so much better done than dragon age.

 

 

I wish bioware would do an elder scrolls game

 

Redguards, Imperials, Nords, and Bretons are all humans. The only difference is skin color and facial structure, which are based off...actual RL humans.

 

High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves are phenotypically similar except for their different heights (High Elf taller than the other two), skin colors (Dark elves), and eye colors (Dark elves). 

 

Argonians, Khajiit, and Orcs are unique

 

You have five races: Humans Elves Orcs Argonians Khajiit

 

Dragon Age has four races which are more or less similar, with Elves and Qunari having the biggest disjoint in appearance. Dwarves are short stubby humans. 

So technically you have three races: Humans Elves Qunari

 

Each TES "race" has a distinct culture, so they are still worth seperating. However, each of those races has their own province. All of those provinces are clustered together.

 

In Dragon Age, you actually have COUNTRIES with their own cultures. Considering we've only played in two, Orlais and Fereldan...and know next to nothing about the other provinces beyond some general facts since we've barely connected with their people..I don't think your argument holds much ground.

 

We only know a couple of Antivans well, one Rivaini, one Nevarran...

 

You can argue that the cultures of the countries has not been fleshed out as much, but TES has two games on Dragon Age as well as a more interracial population. Also, everything about every race has been documented. DA has many mysteries left. 

 

Where did Humans come from?

Where did Qunari come from?
Arlathan?

etc..

 

You had Nords in Cyrodiil...but you don't have a city of Rivaini in Fereldan... (Plenty of Orlesians in Free Marches though )

 

Inquisition is a step forward in this regard. You actually deal with plenty of Tevinters for once.

[robmokron]

'm only 30 hours in but the Dragon Age seems to same to me, the art style has evolved, but i still feel like im living in a brutal world. The context of the story is different. Youre in a larger game space and focusing on saving the world. Origins you were saving ferelden, but you were able to focus on the details. I dont know, i dont think anything is wrong. Origins was a brutal game however, had some majot greys and i hope that it continues in the series.

[Diggerz]

The main point of the article is that BioWare tries to create a setting with Medival "Dark Ages" feeling but all the time i feel more like im walking in modern day San Fransisco, just with a different skin.

 

There is no difference playing a Female Elf mage then a Male Human Warrior besides a few "comments" that it irk a few ppl here and there (mostly cause you an elf mage) and while most of us would love to live in such a world it just doesn't compute since having played DAO and DA2 you know that combo would be nigh to impossible to pull of as the "inquisitor", BUT if that was way more noticeable in game it would also make for a much more immerse experience and satisfaction to pull of.

[yankblan]

That's not the problem, it's changing your lore in order to be more politically correct. That the people of Thedas are unconcerned about sexual orientation, that was always present in the setting from the start, and so it's perfectly ok if it continues that way. That there are now people of all ethnicities, that's harder to swallow since there was previously no place where black-skinned people could have come from and no places were added to the setting since then.
 
It's also glossing over bad stuff that can't plausibly be absent. We get many little stories of people's lives presented to us in notes throughout DAI. I'll have to check my Codex to be sure, but IIRC so far none of them (I've about halfway through the game) has even alluded to casual abuse of any kind.
 
I don't have a problem with that as such, but it does mean Dragon Age loses points as a dark fantasy setting. It started being inspired by A Song of Ice and Fire in that. I am not seeing anything of that influence any more.

Harder to swallow?? You do know that the people who play the game are from Earth, and Thedas is the fantasy setting? Ther is racial tensions (Elves, Qunari), so what if within those races, there are different colours? It could be as logical having a brown baby has a leopard having a panther, or a human/elf having a mage kid, or a normal person having birthed Wolverine. Your blatant intolerance is not even defensible.

[archav3n]

I don't know about high fantasy or dark. I know i'm loving this game a huge lot. It looks like Skyrim v2. Lovely.

[Medhia_Nox]

Small spoilers follow... 

 

You're walking through gutted towns on fire because two violent rebel factions have broken loose... and this isn't dark to you people?

 

And there is absolutely a Codex entry in the Hinterlands that talks about mages and Templars.  Horrible acts on both sides - but notably - that a young, burnt dying mage woman was lying on the ground... a templar began to take off his armor - and the author killed him with an arrow.  The woman squealed out a thanks and died.

 

Then there's the house of mages that's burning when you walk into it.  The templars had barred the door and set the house ablaze.

 

Then there's the brother who called his templar brother to a house - used blood magic to turn himself into an abomination - so that he could kill his brother.

[Dutch]

Seriously, why is Ferelden black now? Did Alistar import Rivianis after the war?

[yankblan]

Actually, the article was about how political correctness can and does encroach upon creative liberties.
This is part of the reason why games, despite being more mainstream now, are still rather infantile in terms of writing compared to movies or literature. Games are still primarily targeted at a teenage audience, and so the publishers/developers are inclined to "baby-proof" their games to get a preferred rating with rating agencies like the ESRB to maximize sales.
As someone who values good games as highly as good books this is a little disappointing but somewhat understandable. Still, I would like to see the gaming industry grow beyond games just being for "nerdy kids" into a respectable art-form. Given that the average age of a gamer is around 30 years old now, the need to be coddled and shielded from the realities of the big bad world is unjustified.
Not saying every game should be dark, gritty and "realistic" but there should be at least some that dare broach some more mature subjects in a worthwhile fashion, and not simply avoid such things for fear of offending someone.
All in all that was a pretty interesting article to read!

Yes because the White teenage gamergate frustrated virgin needs more catering to...

[Dutch]

Thedaosian society is matriarchal so women have it better than men. That's what I thought when playing DA:I.

[Paul E Dangerously]

It's always been a little too squeaky clean to be considered a "dark fantasy" for me, anyway. You've got lots of dark elements, granted, but it's generally more upbeat.

 

More often than not, it's one of those terms that's so vague in it's real meaning that it's used by marketers because it sounds cool.

[RUDAL]

http://tay.kotaku.co...fant-1662330835

 

What do people think about this article, I haven't played long enough but I've noticed that distinctive art style from Origins slip away with each sequel which is a shame, I did like it

 

side note - the PC controls are horrendous.  

 

I have to say that what you say about art style slipping away is true but I never considered DA series as dark fantasy. There really are no grey or dab vs worse choices in the game. Unless you are referring to colour schemes?    

[yankblan]

How can you pretend that it doesn't happen? I understand you don't want to be reminded of the experience. I myself am not asking for a graphical depiction of the act. But to say that something like that it never happened in the entire history of Thedas is mind boggling. Maybe it didn't happen to anyone important or plot relevant enough, but it does happen. And here, in a fantasy world, if done right, maybe, just maybe, you could get back at someone. It could be cathartic.

CATHARTIC??? ARE YOU FUCKIN REAL???????

[robmokron]

The main point of the article is that BioWare tries to create a setting with Medival "Dark Ages" feeling but all the time i feel more like im walking in modern day San Fransisco, just with a different skin.

 

There is no difference playing a Female Elf mage then a Male Human Warrior besides a few "comments" that it irk a few ppl here and there (mostly cause you an elf mage) and while most of us would love to live in such a world it just doesn't compute since having played DAO and DA2 you know that combo would be nigh to impossible to pull of as the "inquisitor", BUT if that was way more noticeable in game it would also make for a much more immerse experience and satisfaction to pull of.

what are you talking about? i'm playing a female elf mage and i can rolepl;ay the role very well, i can deny andraste, i can talk about my heritage, i mention my heritage with normal dialogue choices, the changes are there.

[DanishViking]

high fantasy ?

 

darkspawns ? check

demons ? check

evil mages ? check

evil templers check

dragons ? check

 

sounds like the other dragon age games if you ask me

so no the feeling did not change the world just got bigger.

[Spankatola]

Small spoilers follow... 

 

You're walking through gutted towns on fire because two violent rebel factions have broken loose... and this isn't dark to you people?

 

And there is absolutely a Codex entry in the Hinterlands that talks about mages and Templars.  Horrible acts on both sides - but notably - that a young, burnt dying mage woman was lying on the ground... a templar began to take off his armor - and the author killed him with an arrow.  The woman squealed out a thanks and died.

 

Then there's the house of mages that's burning when you walk into it.  The templars had barred the door and set the house ablaze.

 

Then there's the brother who called his templar brother to a house - used blood magic to turn himself into an abomination - so that he could kill his brother.

 

Et cetera. There's plenty of darkness in these games. Nor are the themes particularly black and white. People want, what? On-screen rape? Want to see the victim crying and pleading for help, getting beaten into silence? It's a ****** game, not torture porn.

[Bod02]

Redguards, Imperials, Nords, and Bretons are all humans. The only difference is skin color and facial structure, which are based off...actual RL humans.

High Elves, Wood Elves, and Dark Elves are phenotypically similar except for their different heights (High Elf taller than the other two), skin colors (Dark elves), and eye colors (Dark elves).

Argonians, Khajiit, and Orcs are unique

You have five races: Humans Elves Orcs Argonians Khajiit

Dragon Age has four races which are more or less similar, with Elves and Qunari having the biggest disjoint in appearance. Dwarves are short stubby humans.
So technically you have three races: Humans Elves Qunari

Each TES "race" has a distinct culture, so they are still worth seperating. However, each of those races has their own province. All of those provinces are clustered together.

In Dragon Age, you actually have COUNTRIES with their own cultures. Considering we've only played in two, Orlais and Fereldan...and know next to nothing about the other provinces beyond some general facts since we've barely connected with their people..I don't think your argument holds much ground.

We only know a couple of Antivans well, one Rivaini, one Nevarran...

You can argue that the cultures of the countries has not been fleshed out as much, but TES has two games on Dragon Age as well as a more interracial population. Also, everything about every race has been documented. DA has many mysteries left.

Where did Humans come from?
Where did Qunari come from?
Arlathan?
etc..

You had Nords in Cyrodiil...but you don't have a city of Rivaini in Fereldan... (Plenty of Orlesians in Free Marches though )

Inquisition is a step forward in this regard. You actually deal with plenty of Tevinters for once.

I don't understand how that's a response to what i said. You seem to be just highlighting the fact the dragon age throws in people of colour willy nilly while the elder scrolls does so through well established lore. (well there's only black people but that seems to be all people mean when they ask for representation)

My original point was that it's weird that such bigotted people in dragon age somehow don't see race or gender, when they're much more different than pointy ears or height, and you seem to agree that dwarves are just white folks with dwarfism? (to be fair I imagine medieval dwarves would have lots of prejudice. But pointy ears? Come on)

Imagine if the next elder scrolls took place in hammerfell. Gasp! A medieval fantasy not in europe? Wait they did that with morrowind. Gasp! A medieval fantasy with africans? Still waiting for representation of my indian sisters though.

[PhroXenGold]

The main point of the article is that BioWare tries to create a setting with Medival "Dark Ages" feeling but all the time i feel more like im walking in modern day San Fransisco, just with a different skin.

 

There is no difference playing a Female Elf mage then a Male Human Warrior besides a few "comments" that it irk a few ppl here and there (mostly cause you an elf mage) and while most of us would love to live in such a world it just doesn't compute since having played DAO and DA2 you know that combo would be nigh to impossible to pull of as the "inquisitor", BUT if that was way more noticeable in game it would also make for a much more immerse experience and satisfaction to pull of.

 

It's interesting you just throw aside those "few comments", when in many ways, they demonstrate just how racist society is in Andrastean Thedas. The perfect example is right near the beginning. When you wake up in Haven after the tutorial, go speak to the Quartermaster outside the Chantry (I forget her name). Though she eventually realises you are the Herald, at first she doesn't and treats you as something else. If you are an elf, she assumes you are a servant. Not because you're dressed like one, not because you're acting like one, but simply because you are an elf.  That's about as racist as possible, and yet it's spoken as a casual throw away line by a seemingly ordinary person.

 

Now, I don't think the quartermaster is a particularly unpleasant person. I very much doubt she gets her kicks out of oppressing helpless elves. And yet she automatically assumes that because you're an elf, you must be a servant. Why? Because the society in which she lives has so ingrained into her the belief that elves are nothing more than servants.

 

How often do you hear the phrase "knife ear"? All over the place - not necessarily specifically referring to an elven Inquisitor, but elves in general - from plenty of otherwise decent people. And again, this is a perfect example of how institutionalised and ingrained the racism in Andrastean Thedas is. That people don't think twice about using such a phrase (and in case anyone tries to suggest that it's not really insulting, remember that "the N word" simply means black...).

 

It's a much more subtle, less overt racism than, say, that which appears in the CE origin in DA:O, but it is no less present. In fact, I think, whether intentionally or not, Bioware have done extremely well in portraying racism in Inquisition, at least from what I've seen of DA:I so far, as it very much reflects the way racism is in our world. It's not about going out and deliberately oppressing other races, it's about things that have become so ingrained in our society that we don't even realise it. Negative stereotypes subconsciously impacting peoples actions, insulting language without realising it and so on. It's subtle, insidious and in many ways as bad if not worse than overt oppression, as it's is incredibly hard to root out, and it's not just the actions of a relatively small amount of people who actively dislike other races. You can't just crack down on people assuming elves are all servants, when society has completely ingrained that idea into everyone's subconscious..

 

And to make it even better, how many people overlook that this kind of thing is there in the game? How many people are assuming there isn't significant racism? Well, just look at this thread. They don't see the discrimination that's there. Much like in reality.

 

And hell, barring the first half-an-hour, how was DA:O any different? Once you're out of the origin story, the only difference between races was a few dialogues.

[llandwynwyn]

urgh, not even going to bother reading the rest of this thread
 
Yes, Thedas is predominant white. But there were a lot of dark skinned npcs in DAO (and DA2).

In Lothering, our real first city in the game, talking npcs: Devons and Ser Bryant.

"Oh, no, they added black people. Lore breaking!" is a pathetic argument

[Dutch]

urgh, not even going to bother reading the rest of this thread

Yes, Thedas is predominant white. But there were a lot of dark skinned npcs in DAO (and DA2).

In Lothering, our real first city in the game, talking npcs: Devons and Ser Bryant.

"Oh, no, they added black people. Lore breaking!" is a pathetic argument

Doesn't make sense if their are quite a number black people in Ferelden when supposedly they all originate from Rivian, no?

[Spankatola]

Doesn't make sense if their are quite a number black people in Ferelden when supposedly they all originate from Rivian, no?

 

Is there some anti-Rivaini law in Ferelden that I'm unaware of where it wouldn't make sense that we see them there?

[PhroXenGold]

Doesn't make sense if their are quite a number black people in Ferelden when supposedly they all originate from Rivian, no?

 

That's like saying it doesn't make sense if there are quite a number of black people in Europe when supposedly they all originate from Africa...

[Mr.House]

DAI is just as dark as DAO imo.

[GhoXen]

I never considered Dragon Age a dark fantasy.

 

Witcher series is what a dark fantasy is like. It's not just the visual style.