253 réponses à ce sujet

[Lenimph]

Well...I suppose we know what that one controversial romance (where it could be taken as rape) came from...

 

Just throwing that one out there...

Defo

 

I'm glad I didn't romance him. This would have been a very troubling scene for me.

 

 

I don't know if the writers will ever read this thread but if they do, I want to recommend a webcomic series called Sunstone, which features a healthy representation of BDSM, written by a husband and wife team who actually practice BDSM... and not this 50shadesofdaterape stuff. 

 

I think for stuff like this I would rather it just be hinted at (like in the case of Isabela and Zevran) rather then out right said like this because stuff like this happens.

[Hellion Rex]

Well...I suppose we know what that one controversial romance (where it could be taken as rape) came from...

Just throwing that one out there...

I don't think it was that "controversial". I actually think the Solas watching you sleep had a lot of weirder implications for me.

[Hellion Rex]

Well, Gaider thought the love story in Twilight was well done, so... is anybody surprised?

Funny, considering he didn't write the character at all...

[d4eaming]

http://dgaider.tumbl...ove-of-twilight

 

 

"David Gaider loves Twilight!"

I’ve seen this comment repeated in a number of places, usually followed by something like “HURHURHUR that explains so much!” Etc, etc.

Yes, I get it. It’s funnier to repeat that, how a writer for a major franchise known for its romances might have a burning love for the Twilight series. Especially to those who think the romances I write are juvenile, and how anyone who likes our romances is clearly either a fourteen-year old girl with moonpies for eyes or an emotionally-stunted guy who’s never had a relationship in his life.

I’ll ignore the irony for now, considering the basement-dwelling nature of most of these commenters. Instead I’m going to respond to the accusation, primarily so I have a place to direct someone the next time it comes up.

[d4eaming]

Not that i've had an Inquisitor romance Bull yet, but the implications so far squick me a bit, having major issues with being touched or restrained, and it's very hard to divorce that from my characters. I could just imagine my pretty little elf cracking like a twig o_o

[Hellion Rex]

Defo

I'm glad I didn't romance him. This would have been a very troubling scene for me.


I don't know if the writers will ever read this thread but if they do, I want to recommend a webcomic series called Sunstone, which features a healthy representation of BDSM, written by a husband and wife team who actually practice BDSM... and not this 50shadesofdaterape stuff.

It ain't date rape at all. That is a complete and utter lie. If you don't want to do it, you say no. Period. My only gripe with the romance is that they wait till the second big conversation to establish their rules.

[Lenimph]

It ain't date rape at all. That is a complete and utter lie. If you don't want to do it, you say no. Period. My only gripe with the romance is that they wait till the second big conversation to establish their rules.

Except it's not an option for the player to say no in the act....  you can only say no after. There is definitely unclear options for consent, and that shouldn't be the case.

 

Rough sex means a lot of different things to a lot of different people... 

[d4eaming]

I've only kissed Dorian so far (damn having two jobs in peak season!), so it is really speculation for me. If there is no way to say no when it starts to get rough, then that definitely bothers me. I have said no in the middle of the act (many times) for various reasons. Usually it was heeded. I wouldn't want my character presented with that, but with no way to back out if that particular character wouldn't like it. I could probably dredge up an Inquisitor that would go for that kind of relationship, but the majority of mine are gentle types.

 

I wonder if the break up gives an option of saying "no, and this is why" or if your only option is "we can't do it other ways? phphphpttttt fine, let's still be friends." Maybe Bull wouldn't care, or he'd find it weak, or something. But the option to address it would be nice.

[Hellion Rex]

Except it's not an option for the player to say no in the act.... you can only say no after. There is definitely unclear options for consent, and that shouldn't be the case.

Rough sex means a lot of different things to a lot of different people...

Except that he gives you the option to say no even before you begin sex and you can end it immediately after if you decide you don't like it. It'd be hard to depict it during the act, cause it'd require them to show the act, which I think is way too risqué for this game. So I understand what you mean, but I also understand why there probably wasn't a scene during the act to say no.

[Hellion Rex]

I've only kissed Dorian so far (damn having two jobs in peak season!), so it is really speculation for me. If there is no way to say no when it starts to get rough, then that definitely bothers me. I have said no in the middle of the act (many times) for various reasons. Usually it was heeded. I wouldn't want my character presented with that, but with no way to back out if that particular character wouldn't like it. I could probably dredge up an Inquisitor that would go for that kind of relationship, but the majority of mine are gentle types.

I wonder if the break up gives an option of saying "no, and this is why" or if your only option is "we can't do it other ways? phphphpttttt fine, let's still be friends." Maybe Bull wouldn't care, or he'd find it weak, or something. But the option to address it would be nice.

I don't think he'd find you to be weak at all. He'd probably be disappointed, as people are wont to do when they get turned down, but I doubt he'd think you weak for it.

[Basement Cat]

I actually have a few issues with this. 

 

I really don't like that they had this conversation AFTER the deed. Shows that Iron Bull just went for it and that is troublesome. I also don't like the way Iron Bull shuts down the Inquisitor when quizzy suggested different roles, assuming that he knows what the Inquisitor needs better then the inquisitor himself, very troublesome.  While I appreciate the effort on Bioware's part for representation, I'm judging Iron Bull for being an shady Dom.  

 

Of course I don't know what happens when you pick, "you're wrong?" 

EDIT: Apparently that means you break up because he's incapable of switching or having normal sex... ok yeah... I have huge problems with this....

You're not the only one. I mean, if you really don't like to play sub, the way to go is to say 'I don't want to do that', not 'I know what you want and it's not that'. That's controlling behavior. 

 

And Sunstone is awesome!

[Lenimph]

Except that he gives you the option to say no even before you begin sex and you can end it immediately after if you decide you don't like it. It'd be hard to depict it during the act, cause it'd require them to show the act, which I think is way too risqué for this game. So I understand what you mean, but I also understand why there probably wasn't a scene during the act to say no.

I think it shows really poor judgment on their part to let game restrictions make consent be so muddled. If they couldn't have it during the scene, then it should have happened before hand. IB easily could have just asked inquisitors opinion on all of this before, and the only thing he would have lost by doing that is the potential of getting laid.

It leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

You're not the only one. I mean, if you really don't like to play sub, the way to go is to say 'I don't want to do that', not 'I know what you want and it's not that'. That's controlling behavior. 
 
And Sunstone is awesome!

Exactly! It's freakin shady.

And yes Sunstone is awesome :3

[Dutchess]

http://dgaider.tumbl...ove-of-twilight

 

Which is why I didn't say he loved it, but that he thought it was well done: "Well, I think Twilight is far more effective with its romantic elements than most people give it credit for. Granted, it has little else going for it— but the romance it does well."

I'd disagree with that already, but according to Gaider I can just f*** my hat then. 

 

Except that he gives you the option to say no even before you begin sex and you can end it immediately after if you decide you don't like it. It'd be hard to depict it during the act, cause it'd require them to show the act, which I think is way too risqué for this game. So I understand what you mean, but I also understand why there probably wasn't a scene during the act to say no.

 

You can say no before diving in bed with him, but the problem is at that point you don't really know what you're consenting to. Bull does not establish his rules in the first conversation and he does not elaborate in any way what sex with him will be like. He also gives off the impression it will have to be his way or not at all. it will have to be how he likes it while Inquisitor doesn't even know what that means yet. No room for compromise. Saying no to (aspects of) the sex means saying no to the relationship as a whole. That's leaning a whole lot more towards abuse or at least an unequal relationship rather than BDSM. Just as 50 shades did.

[Panda]

I haven't seen romance scenes with Bull but I doubt they show BDSM itself and it's only in dialogue? So we can't really know what happened during the sex. Maybe Bull asked if quizzy was okay with sth and quizzy said yes? Also in any sex scene in the game you don't have option to say no during the sex scene? It doesn't matter if it's BDSM or "normal" sex, someone might have different thoughts or they might not be ready.

 

Since these are game characters it's always hard to give enough choices for your character, you can't really romance anyone of them plainly in terms you want, the game always takes you in some way since there is build up story. For Bull's it's BDSM. It would have been better choice to have this talk about BDSM before the actual sex though since it's more unknown topic.

 

There is different reasons why people don't want to continue relationship. If Bull can't be dom he doesn't want to. He isn't forcing quizzy to anything there, he gives you option to walk away with no hard feelings. I don't think the issue is different than walking away because other doesn't want to get married, doesn't want kids etc. especially when relationship is so young. I did find his talk about quizzy needing something little odd but I also wonder if that's because he's qunari, needs are much more important than wants to them.

[Chernaya]

I agree that some things in his romance arc could have definitely been done better. Before starting the romance, there certainly could have been a better explanation. But I'm not gonna complain about how his character is written, with his desire to be the one in control and such. I will admit I was very surprised on how inflexible he was about it, but that's just who he is. Some people will like it, some won't, some will be kinda in the middle ground about it with some doubts but love his character enough to keep going. I was in the latter group. 

[XathosOmega]

Before Bull, I never really saw BDSM in a game be taken in a non comedic manner (though I know very little of the subject myself). So it was a nice surprise to see it be treated as a serious, but healthy thing to have if you saw it that way. Thought it was a good change of pace from other Romances, and a reflection of possible real world relationships. Not that I don't understand some people's frustration of Bull not really changing his role in the relationship. For my Inquisitor, I rolled with it and found that it fit, but obviously not everyone will think the same.

 

Though it would be interesting to see that explored in post game DLC or Citadel type DLC later on. Still playing through the game and his romance, but once the threat is over, would that constitute the Inquisitor's "need" to be changed? When the job of the Inquisitor is done, is he now more flexible? Or is that just how he always is? Has he never been in an opposite role and just doesn't do that? Again, it'd be nice to ask about that or something in DLC, even in a comedic sense or whatever. Fleshing out a character more isn't a bad thing.

 

Whatever happens though, I always found that it fit his character pretty much to a T.

[Hellion Rex]

I do think Bull should have begun the romance with the rules. In my opinion, that's a very fair criticism. That said, I am very happy that he did mention rules, period. FPJ did amazing with that romance, in my opinion.

[RevilFox]

Ah...damn it. I just found out about this. Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy they included this in the game, as it's something I've wanted depicted in a serious manner in a game for a really long time, but why oh why can't I get this romance with a gay female LI?  All I've ever wanted is a confident, strong woman who knows exactly what she wants and is not at all afraid to take it. Sigh.

 

As for the rules coming after, I don't have a problem with it, because we have no idea what actually happened during the scene. It's entirely possible that it was nothing more than him lighting binding the Inquisitor's hands with some silk  and gently telling the Inquisitor to lay back and enjoy it. I've had a few first time's like that, on both sides of the equation. Hell, it could have been as simple as him telling the Inquisitor to hold on to the bed post and not move. I've also done that, with someone who was new to it. There's zero reason to think that what he did was, in any way, shady. 

 

As for the "need" thing...do the Qunari really strike you as a group of people who are fluid in their view of people? It's far more likely that Bull believes that this is what the Inquisitor needs, and if they say anything else then he believes they are fooling themselves. 

 

Seriously though...for the love of my libdeo, can I PLEASE have this kind of romance with a gay female in the next game? Pretty please?

[RobRam10]

Seriously though...for the love of my libdeo, can I PLEASE have this kind of romance with a gay female in the next game? Pretty please?

[RevilFox]

Well now I have to go cry into my dinner. I HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY!

[Ryzaki]

I'm so confused.

 

People want characters to have agency...but when they refuse to budge on something (and have no negativity towards the PC saying no) it's an issue?

 

I completely understand not wanting to romance Bull that's fine. as well as feeling he's completely wrong and being patronizing.

 

And yeah the safe word conversation should've happened before the sex scene.

 

But why is there an issue with him only wanting a certain kind of relationship with the PC? Just say no if you're not into it. You weren't compatible.

[Sah291]

I don't really know anything about BDSM lifestyle, and I didn't do his romance, but I find the discussion on "what you want versus what you need" interesting just on a philosophical level. I feel like this is a wider theme in the game. Bull is talking about sex here, but he's also relating what it's like to be spy, and I was thinking about how just giving people what they want and/or telling them what they want to hear is what propagandists do. But, exposing someone to a new idea, even if it's something they think they don't want to hear, can sometimes be kinder. I noticed how the Inquisitor starts the conversation off like "Nobody has ever done that to me before, I enjoyed it" so I took it in that context. Like maybe, it was unexpected and now he's curious...but if it had been expected, he might not have tried it in the first place. 

[vertigomez]

I'm so confused.
 
People want characters to have agency...but when they refuse to budge on something (and have no negativity towards the PC saying no) it's an issue?
 
I completely understand not wanting to romance Bull that's fine. as well as feeling he's completely wrong and being patronizing.
 
And yeah the safe word conversation should've happened before the sex scene.
 
But why is there an issue with him only wanting a certain kind of relationship with the PC? Just say no if you're not into it. You weren't compatible.

THIS, thank you. There's fair criticism (the rules convo really ought to have come first, though for all we know they could've just had ever so slightly not strictly vanilla sex the first time... or being uncomfortable with the "need/want" thing) and then there's folks who're upset that the options are 1) BDSM or 2) nada.

When they first have sex, Bull and the Inquisitor are not in love. It's strictly a FWB relationship, he calls you boss, etc. There's no emotional commitment to muddy the waters, so all it is is would-be casual sex buddies... turning out to not be sexually compatible. And that's okay! Lots of people aren't! On the other hand, Quizzie could be totally into it, so they pursue the relationship. The end.

Was Sebastian unreasonable for requiring a chaste marriage? As I recall, the only options there were "yes, pursue this relationship knowing that Seb feels strongly about this" or "nope, not gonna happen".

I wouldn't friendmance Sebastian with a very sexual Hawke anymore than I'd pair Bull with an Inquisitor who's not interested in kinky sex.

[Shark17676]

I don't really know anything about BDSM lifestyle, and I didn't do his romance, but I find the discussion on "what you want versus what you need" interesting just on a philosophical level. I feel like this is a wider theme in the game. Bull is talking about sex here, but he's also relating what it's like to be spy, and I was thinking about how just giving people what they want and/or telling them what they want to hear is what propagandists do. But, exposing someone to a new idea, even if it's something they think they don't want to hear, can sometimes be kinder. I noticed how the Inquisitor starts the conversation off like "Nobody has ever done that to me before, I enjoyed it" so I took it in that context. Like maybe, it was unexpected and now he's curious...but if it had been expected, he might not have tried it in the first place. 

 

Beautifully said.  I think you're right on the money on a lot of these points.

 

Personally, I was disappointed that I couldn't at least be versatile with Bull, but in the end, it's OK -- Bull is who he is.  We all have certain tastes.  He's upfront with you that he's strictly a dom, and if it isn't to your liking, then you're simply not compatible.

 

Ultimately I RP'd it as my Inquisitor not knowing if this relationship will truly last.  It was a vital comfort to have Bull by his side, including in his bed, in the highly stressful times of trying to save the world from Corypheus...but it might not be how he'd like to spend the rest of his love life.

 

Although the love is real, things between them are probably doomed to failure anyway -- what with Bull's great fearfulness toward the idea of marriage (my Inquisitor would like to make it official with the man whom he'll dedicate the rest of his life to), and the fact that Bull will leave the Inquisition back to his faraway Qunari homeland as soon as the remnants of Corypheus's mess are cleaned up.  A symbolic necklace can only help such a long-distance situation so much...

[Ryzaki]

Although the love is real, things between them are probably doomed to failure anyway -- what with Bull's great fearfulness toward the idea of marriage (my Inquisitor would like to make it official with the man whom he'll dedicate the rest of his life to), and the fact that Bull will leave the Inquisition back to his faraway Qunari homeland as soon as the remnants of Corypheus's mess are cleaned up.  A symbolic necklace can only help such a long-distance situation so much...

 

Eww you let the chargers die.

 

You monster. 

 

</3

 

(joking obv)