Yeah the conversation should've been first. I'd hope if the devs ever do something similar again they'd place it first. Even if it was one of those zoom in conversations before the scene in your room that'd been better.
That said the "I know what you need." has a very easy rebuttal...tell him to leave. He even flat out admits he felt if he was wrong you'd tell him to leave.
Yeah the conversation should've been first. I'd hope if the devs ever do something similar again they'd place it first. Even if it was one of those zoom in conversations before the scene in your room that'd been better.
That said the "I know what you need." has a very easy rebuttal...tell him to leave. He even flat out admits he felt if he was wrong you'd tell him to leave.
I don't really have a problem with the "I know what you need" part, although I completely understand why others do. It's just that his relationship starts off as mostly him just offering you a service, and you can take it or leave it. It's not intended to be romantic or intimate because he doesn't really associate sex with feelings, and coming from the Qun he sees through their lens of 'one person having too much power is bad'. Someone not coming from that has a good chance of finding that strange or offensive, but to him it's probably pretty normal, lol. The rules conversation I have nothing to argue against though, because I agree with that and there's really no way around that one... it was poorly done.
I don't really have a problem with the "I know what you need" part, although I completely understand why others do. It's just that his relationship starts off as mostly him just offering you a service, and you can take it or leave it. It's not intended to be romantic or intimate because he doesn't really associate sex with feelings, and coming from the Qun he sees through their lens of 'one person having too much power is bad'. Someone not coming from that has a good chance of finding that strange or offensive, but to him it's probably pretty normal, lol. The rules conversation I have nothing to argue against though, because I agree with that and there's really no way around that one... it was poorly done.
I don't have an issue with it but it is incredibly patronizing and offputting. Seriously I hate when characters try to tell my PC how he/she feels. My PC's not a infant ffs. But then I played who it fit and then I was okay with it. But I certainly understand the whole "do not want" to that. It just also has an incredibly obvious solution so I can't be that bothered.
But agreed it's probably normal to him (also I do feel he's probably coming from it from the whole "I hope this makes it easier on you." branch since he does end it if the Quizzy acts all frantic when they get caught XD
But yeah the watch words convo happening after the sex scene was really poorly done there's not much arguing with that I agree. Even if all he did was tie Quizzy up. It's still terrible.
You made this picture for me, you really did. Thank you, lol.
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Guest_Raga_*
He seems to be making these assumptions about what you "need" based on who the Quizzy is and the role they are in as Inquisitor-- specifically as someone in a position of power. That's why I don't think he's necessarily intended to appeal to all players or all characters a player might create.
I think my female elf might have related more to one of his serving girls, so I didn't go for his romance. She was better suited to Solas who deals with the slave mentality, or even Sera who challenges her Dalish-ness. Maybe Bull is better suited to a character that is used to having some measure of power already...to which being in a situation where they aren't always in control is new or different. I don't know.
It is indeed social/mental manipulation, and I think he pretty much admits to using to his spy training on you. It's not necessarily meant to be malicious though, and could be meant to help the Quizzy in some way. That's implied by his refusal to just give you whatever you want, which he says is reserved for a hostile target. It's open to interoperation I guess.
I actually don't think it's meant to be hostile or harmful. I actually think it *is* supposed to be a positive thing. I just think the writers sort of muddied it up or used poor choice of words so it becomes unclear precisely what he's aiming for. Well, at least, I *hope* they intended more nuance than "I'm dom because you need dom so much you don't even know you need dom. Take it or leave it." But that is how it ends up coming across.
I also can't completely buy the idea that he's just responding to your role as Inquisitor and Qunari always think in terms of role. Bull is constantly also thinking in terms of personality and people. This is the crux of his character arc, such as it is. I don't think he thinks of the Inquisitor just in terms of role. I think he's also projecting what he thinks the Inquisitor's *personality* needs.
I think people are kind of looking too deep into this. It is a D/s relationship. You either like it or you don't. We don't need to discuss how Bull is manipulative and if the first sex scene is questionable. It just is what it is.
I don't really have a problem with the "I know what you need" part, although I completely understand why others do. It's just that his relationship starts off as mostly him just offering you a service, and you can take it or leave it. It's not intended to be romantic or intimate because he doesn't really associate sex with feelings, and coming from the Qun he sees through their lens of 'one person having too much power is bad'. Someone not coming from that has a good chance of finding that strange or offensive, but to him it's probably pretty normal, lol. The rules conversation I have nothing to argue against though, because I agree with that and there's really no way around that one... it was poorly done.
Yes, Bull is offering a service. Yes, there are no romantic feelings on his side initially. But what about the Inquisitor who has romantic feeling for the Bull - because it is up to the player to decide what their character is feeling. Or it should be at least. Does that Inquisitor go through sexual dynamic they might not enjoy in an attempt to get him to see their relationship as something more?
Naturally, the game itself doesn't allow that kind of roleplaying (or any roleplaying for that matter) because his romance is written as friends with benefits in mind with the Inquisitor being all for it. The game tries to imply very hard that the Inquisitor has been lusting for Bull for a while before the first romance scene. And if the romance continues, the game further decides for you that your character is ok with Bull making all decisions in their relationship – on the bedroom side of things anyway.
Romance for Bull is written for a certain type of Inquisitor, just like romances with Blackwall, Dorian, Sera, Cassandra, Cullen… are written with different personalities of Inquisitor in mind. The bottom line of Bull's romance is: If you want to romance Bull but your Inquisitor is not into BDSM, they and the player will have to shut up, grit their teeth and put up with it.
I laughed so hard watching this....
"Take me", oh my God....
Honestly the only way I can get through that scene is head-cannoning that the Inquisitor is laughing afterwards. "Take me", seriously? Bad romance novel here we come...
For the most part, I really liked the romance. But I have to admit that the talk about being a spy and knowing what you need can come across in a creepy way. Some people find that appealing (there is a fanfic where Bull compares winning women to taming horses and that's how the romance starts already) but I really wish it was worded ...better.
Honestly the only way I can get through that scene is head-cannoning that the Inquisitor is laughing afterwards. "Take me", seriously? Bad romance novel here we come...
For the most part, I really liked the romance. But I have to admit that the talk about being a spy and knowing what you need can come across in a creepy way. Some people find that appealing (there is a fanfic where Bull compares winning women to taming horses and that's how the romance starts already) but I really wish it was worded ...better.
It's not necessarily the line itself that gets me... it just sounds so ridiculous with that voice from a guy so enormously Huuuuuge! LOLOL.
Another instance where Bioware REALLY goes above and beyond the bar when it comes representation of sexuality...pay attention to the "rules" that Bull talks about after with the player...the importance of authenticity.
Um, not to sound insensitive or anything in case I word this wrong, but why is BDSM considered a sexuality? I always thought it was just a style of sexual activity rather than an actual sexuality.
I think people are kind of looking too deep into this. It is a D/s relationship. You either like it or you don't. We don't need to discuss how Bull is manipulative and if the first sex scene is questionable. It just is what it is.
Agreed, it's obviously not there to be taken seriously. LOL, Clearly.
It made me a bit uncomfortable. It really did come across, to me, as "This is what you are getting. take it or leave it."
Im not offended or some such nonsense, but i definitely wont be doing his romance again. That, plus the fact that i find it to be kind of dull, really turns me off of the character.
Yes, Bull is offering a service. Yes, there are no romantic feelings on his side initially. But what about the Inquisitor who has romantic feeling for the Bull - because it is up to the player to decide what their character is feeling. Or it should be at least. Does that Inquisitor go through sexual dynamic they might not enjoy in an attempt to get him to see their relationship as something more?
Naturally, the game itself doesn't allow that kind of roleplaying (or any roleplaying for that matter) because his romance is written as friends with benefits in mind with the Inquisitor being all for it. The game tries to imply very hard that the Inquisitor has been lusting for Bull for a while before the first romance scene. And if the romance continues, the game further decides for you that your character is ok with Bull making all decisions in their relationship – on the bedroom side of things anyway.
Romance for Bull is written for a certain type of Inquisitor, just like romances with Blackwall, Dorian, Sera, Cassandra, Cullen… are written with different personalities of Inquisitor in mind. The bottom line of Bull's romance is: If you want to romance Bull but your Inquisitor is not into BDSM, they and the player will have to shut up, grit their teeth and put up with it.
Uh...only way to even get Bull's scene to trigger is to hit a heart with him...so...technically the game is right.
Honestly the only way I can get through that scene is head-cannoning that the Inquisitor is laughing afterwards. "Take me", seriously? Bad romance novel here we come...
For the most part, I really liked the romance. But I have to admit that the talk about being a spy and knowing what you need can come across in a creepy way. Some people find that appealing (there is a fanfic where Bull compares winning women to taming horses and that's how the romance starts already) but I really wish it was worded ...better.
Believe me it's not even the tip of the ice berg of bad lines in this series.
"What about Love?" (God lord the way dude Hawke says it makes me cringe)
"TIL THE DAY WE DIE." (Especially hilarious/facepalm worthy in a Anders rivalmance)
The entire Hawke/Merrill scene was cringeworthy for me. Talk about moving way too fast.
Take me at least had me lmao.
I'm not into BDSM, but I've read up on it. One thing that's hammered home is that rules and boundaries need to be clear before anything happens. IB only wants to top? Okay. But being vague and only having the safeword conversation afterwards is a no-go. And his "I know what you need" just makes him a jerk. And since I don't think it's intentional, I blame Weekes here.
Now you see the, "I know what you need", I'd take it as a turn on. My IQ has been spending all day giving what everyone else needs and expects. But with Bull, he can just go home and get smacked around the room. If he needs it. And sometimes he might. it's giving up control to someone you trust. That's the turn on.
Also the relationship doesn't come across to me as just BDSM (and they never are, by the way). Sure, the sex might come across as that. But "giving what you need" could also mean, sitting around arm and arm watching the fire place all night.
Now I do agree the safe word convo should have happened before anything. But hey, I can forgive that in the game.
The establishing of rules coming before all the action really should be easy to learn about when you do a little research. It's the most important rule of BDSM after all. This implementation is just lazy and poorly done. The writer did know about safe words after all, because the conversation is there. But they just went with the awkward "ride the Bull" nonsense first and then added the "I know what you need" mind-reading to the rules dialogue. Bleh.
Just to offer a different perspective on this, a lot of the Asian BDSM community don't use safe words at all. They tend to feel that the Top should always be cognizant of the Bottom's state of mind, and to know when "Stop" means "Stop" and when it means "I could use a little more". I'm not Asian myself, but I've been with some Asian women, again on both ends of the relationship To be completely honest, I've done some fairly hardcore stuff and I prefer not having one. I only do it with women I trust, and it adds a sense of uncertainty to things.
Having said all of that, even if you think a safeword is vital, I still don't have any issue with the conversation coming after the act, simply because you have no idea what the actual act is. It's entirely possible it consisted of Bull lightly binding the Inquisitor's hands in front of her, in a way that is easily escapable and more symbolic than anything, and said, "Tell me when you want me to stop". Then, after, when it was decided that things should progress, he wanted to make sure to have the "rules" conversation because he knew things would slowly get more intense.
As for anyone who was disappointed in their two romance options, I'm right there with you. All I've ever wanted is something between Bull and Jack for a F/F romance, but all I ever end up getting is romance. Isabella is my favorite F/F romance, but it's still not really that close to what I'm asking for.
Believe me it's not even the tip of the ice berg of bad lines in this series.
"What about Love?" (God lord the way dude Hawke says it makes me cringe)
"TIL THE DAY WE DIE." (Especially hilarious/facepalm worthy in a Anders rivalmance)
The entire Hawke/Merrill scene was cringeworthy for me. Talk about moving way too fast.
Take me at least had me lmao.
You forgot
"Just like sneaking into the Captain's Quarters. Huge risk, but the PRIIIIIIIZE..." EDIT: It's ME, but you get the point.
The entire Hawke/Merrill scene was cringeworthy for me. Talk about moving way too fast.
Meh, I found Merril/Hawke to be very sweet actually. I have my issues with Merril... her intelligence being the main thing...
She's an idiot, but she's MY idiot, lol. 
The bottom line of Bull's romance is: If you want to romance Bull but your Inquisitor is not into BDSM, they and the player will have to shut up, grit their teeth and put up with it.
True. But as you said, many of the romances have happenings that some people won't especially like - but put up with because they like the character.
Which I don't mind, especially when we have more LI's than ever this time around. We have a couple fluffmances, some dramatic ones, a kinky one. I didn't end up loving them all, but there was variation at least. And I hope they keep up with the variation in the next titles.
I don't know... I loved IB's romance and I never understood it as real BDSM. Ok there's a safe word but maybe he just likes it very rough and you need to be reassured somehow. I don't think they go beyond into BDSM practices, or at least he didn't with my inquisitor 
He's just very dominant.
Too dominant, maybe. I hated it when he told me that he knew best what I needed than myself, so I have to do what he wants because it's best for me... that's exactly what my ex used to tell me, and it is awful, specially if you're not a determined or self-confident person. But putting that aside, I thought it was a great romance, and I don't understand people saying it was there only for the laughs and stuff... It is a romance that really evolves during the story... at first it's just sex, but then it's super sweet. When he calls you "kadan"... you melt like ice-cream... No regrets!
Meh, I found Merril/Hawke to be very sweet actually. I have my issues with Merril... her intelligence being the main thing...
She's an idiot, but she's MY idiot, lol.
Eh I see Merril as high int and low wisdom actually oh and you are the same colonel from the elder scrolls forums? I was there for a time name was shinros not sure if you would remember though. 
Eh I see Merril as high int and low wisdom actually oh and you are the same colonel from the elder scrolls forums? I was there for a time name was shinros not sure if you would remember though.
Yep that's me, and I remember you Shinros Good to see so many of us from BSF here 
You forgot
"Just like sneaking into the Captain's Quarters. Huge risk, but the PRIIIIIIIZE..." EDIT: It's ME, but you get the point.
Oh lawd how did I forget ME.
Don't forget "you want this!" Shepard to Miranda. Shepard sounded so smarmy I actually wanted to punch him in the face.
Meh, I found Merril/Hawke to be very sweet actually. I have my issues with Merril... her intelligence being the main thing...
She's an idiot, but she's MY idiot, lol.
XD It was sweet but that dialogue int he bed was atrocious for me.
XD It was sweet but that dialogue int he bed was atrocious for me.
It's been a while, but I vaguely remember it being somewhat cheese. Thing is, all romantic talk tends to be cheese. Especially after sex That's why we tend to say it quietly and close together, because it sounds less stupid to us if we whisper it to eachother, lol.
Maybe they should have tried that, lol, but then, I guess I was also just used to Bioware's romances by then.
It's been a while, but I vaguely remember it being somewhat cheese. Thing is, all romantic talk tends to be cheese. Especially after sex
Maybe they should have tried that, lol, but then, I guess I was also just used to Bioware's romances by then.
Very cheese XD True enough
Yeah I was still on the "my god. As if TIL THE DAY WE DIE (That has to go in all caps I'm sorry XD) wasn't bad enough."
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