226 réponses à ce sujet

[Stinja]

You definitely do NOT need a barrier to play Katari on Perilous.  You just need better gear, and (i hate to say this) learn2play better.

 

You do "need" competent teammates, but then dead-weight is bad for most players on Perilous, and you may indeed be less "efficient" than being an AW / Elementalist / Archer, but then the game can be about fun and not just efficiency.  You certainly can contribute, and not be dead-weight yourself.

IMO.

[Drasca]

There's dead weight, and there's worse than dead weight. Worse-than dead weight is players that jack up aggro management. Chain Lightning Keeper / AW is my most cited example.  Archers and Hunters that shoot before AoE CC is my next. I'd rather have the afk guy than the committing aggro too early and at the wrong times. Kicking the afk guy is easier, if it is a pug, or carrying them if it is a friend.

 

In actuality, Katari and Reavers are higher efficiency killers and score makers than Archers and AW's, with skill and better builds (which most people don't have). Gear helps everyone of course (which some people do). They synergize with AW's and Eles very well too, but generally kill steal from them. AoE Panic (both) & knockdown (Katari) and Warhorn (Reaver) cause a lot of support exp.

 

I'm less concerned with dead-weight than complete incompetency, the complete failure to communicate, and learn to do better.

[Sidney]

I think that actually hits the nail on the head. ease of play.  Many are driven by the ease of play factor in what they are using... Or what they really like the look of (getting assassin's and rogues a bit more play)  warriors however tend to be harder to play. specially at higher levels for a variety of factors.  effort it takes to get to some targets. how easily ranged opponents tend to rip through them. lack of overall damage potential on them in part because of these other factors.

 

I understand the lack of interesting in a Lego and Templar. When your job is to get beat up that isn't all that fun for example. I take a certain sick please in standing amidst my foes and laughing as they can't kill me but it is a passive role. I don't think that is about L2P. That is just that being a tank is often boring.

 

The Reaver and Katari should be more interesting but those are L2P issues. I see people claiming success and I'm sure they aren't lying. I'm also sure I will never care to invest X amount of time trying to L2P those classes because, well who cares to spend that sort of time doing so? It is one thing to talk about min/maxing a class but there should at least be a reasonably obvious path to victory with a class. I've promoted everything but a Reaver and Katari. I've been successful with every other class in a very short period of time after picking them and that includes a first usually far far sub-optimal build with some very wasted points that I am still able to be productive and successful with while I L2P. Reaver and Katari I don't feel like a contributor while I am learning, I am a boat anchor of a class. 

[Drasca]

I understand the lack of interesting in a Lego and Templar. When your job is to get beat up that isn't all that fun for example. I take a certain sick please in standing amidst my foes and laughing as they can't kill me but it is a passive role. I don't think that is about L2P. That is just that being a tank is often boring.

 

It is L2P for you, because neither Lego nor Templar is about absolute tanking on Perilous. Legos and Templars who try to shoe-horn into the 'tank' role are noobs, because Perilous difficulty DAMP isn't about tanking even with the invincibility skills around.

 

How to play those classes effectively is the complete opposite of your expectation here. I posted in 'good' advice I expect players to scream Leeroy Jenkins, tongue-in-cheek... but in actuality the skilled players are performing Leeroys successfully jumping into the fray of battle. Legos should actively engage everything they can, jumping from target to target. Templars combo off of wrath of heaven / spell purge to destroy everything not physical immune in 2 seconds, and then shield-wall attack animation cancel everything else in short time.

 

Playing these classes is not boring, your expectation of how these classes are played is boring, and you need to change your attitude if you are going to have any fun at all.

 

 there should at least be a reasonably obvious path to victory with a class.

 

There is, hinted within the character tree itself. I've personally played L1 Katari in Perilous in a team environment, and sometimes even top the scoreboard with non-burst dps classes around.

 

If you're on this board, you have no excuses though since there's multiple Katari & Reaver guide

threads, with my own included. Outside this board, it is more intuitive looking at the easy to grab skills: Charge, Mighty Blow, Pommel Strike, Combat Roll. SP is also available to test skills, though not absolutely necessary. Looking at the bottom skills of Reaver is also pretty intuitive, though Warhorn definitely is not.

 

The game is balanced around routine difficulty and charge alone will bulldoze through routine AND threatening. It is really hard to have a completely borked build on Katari when charge is so good, just shades of min-max.

[Sidney]

It is L2P for you, because neither Lego nor Templar is about absolute tanking on Perilous. Legos and Templars who try to shoe-horn into the 'tank' role are noobs, because Perilous difficulty DAMP isn't about tanking even with the invincibility skills around.

 

How to play those classes effectively is the complete opposite of your expectation here. I posted in 'good' advice I expect players to scream Leeroy Jenkins, tongue-in-cheek... but in actuality the skilled players are performing Leeroys successfully jumping into the fray of battle. Legos should actively engage everything they can, jumping from target to target. Templars combo off of wrath of heaven / spell purge to destroy everything not physical immune in 2 seconds, and then shield-wall attack animation cancel everything else in short time.

 

Playing these classes is not boring, your expectation of how these classes are played is boring, and you need to change your attitude if you are going to have any fun at all.

 

 

There is, hinted within the character tree itself. I've personally played L1 Katari in Perilous in a team environment, and sometimes even top the scoreboard with non-burst dps classes around.

 

If you're on this board, you have no excuses though since there's multiple Katari & Reaver guide

threads, with my own included. Outside this board, it is more intuitive looking at the easy to grab skills: Charge, Mighty Blow, Pommel Strike, Combat Roll. SP is also available to test skills, though not absolutely necessary. Looking at the bottom skills of Reaver is also pretty intuitive, though Warhorn definitely is not.

 

The game is balanced around routine difficulty and charge alone will bulldoze through routine AND threatening. It is really hard to have a completely borked build on Katari when charge is so good, just shades of min-max.

 

The Lego and Templar lend themselves to being damage sponges. Yes the Templar can be borderline abusive with the Wrath/Dispell combo. The lego kitted with a strong weapon can be dangerous. The fact that many people are going to see it and play it as a more passive class should be apparent from watching people play it.

 

With the Reaver and Katari, again, I know how to build them. I understand the theory. The reality is, again, for most players that I see playing them they are glass cannons. More than any other class in my PUG's I HATE seeing the Katari and Reaver because I know they are going down the vast majority of the time in Threatening. You might think it is obvious how to get them to succeed but the failure rate compared to any non-alchemist class in my experience says most people aren't seeing that path very well.

[DrKilledbyDeath]

Dispel is OP.

[CelticRanger275]

The Lego and Templar lend themselves to being damage sponges. Yes the Templar can be borderline abusive with the Wrath/Dispell combo. The lego kitted with a strong weapon can be dangerous. The fact that many people are going to see it and play it as a more passive class should be apparent from watching people play it.

 

With the Reaver and Katari, again, I know how to build them. I understand the theory. The reality is, again, for most players that I see playing them they are glass cannons. More than any other class in my PUG's I HATE seeing the Katari and Reaver because I know they are going down the vast majority of the time in Threatening. You might think it is obvious how to get them to succeed but the failure rate compared to any non-alchemist class in my experience says most people aren't seeing that path very well.

A decent player can pretty easily solo threatening with either Katari or Reaver.  Actually I hate seeing noob keepers worse than anything because they have this tendency to run in first and chain lightning every group of mobs and rarely cast barrier because they haven't enough mana left after their chain lightning or they'd rather wait for CL to come off cooldown instead of cast barrier.  At least when someone comes in on the Katari or Reaver they might actually get some kills while they're aggroing and they have to actually get in the mix instead of casting from 40 yards away and screw up the whole team's flow.

[Puffy9999]

I think I will try to pickup all the passives and see if I can skip the roll.

Rush, MB and B/S.

[TheThirdRace]

ThirdRace is very smart and very respected in my book but even he falls to this trap. Constitution useless? Not the case when I accidently ate a RTC jump-slam that would've killed another assassin (or the thousands of other clutch situations I survived when another would not). Higher defense also allows more aggressive offense for the player able to take advantage of it. Each promoted stat actually affects each kit differently, to the point where analyzing just how much is a lot of work even I haven't completely figured out.

You've got a good point, Constitution isn't useless. I should have said I feel like the investment required for it to matter is too much for me. To each his own limits, but I see why you might have a different opinion than mine with that much Constitution. I think Constitution is more important if you play a lot with Warriors since you do get up close and personal, probably less important when you're playing the other classes.
 

ThirRace, Your analysis looks well thought, but you're missing the point that should be the most important though it rarely is. Why would anyone play warriors you ask, or any other sub-optimal kit for that matter. For fun.

To be fair, I didn't miss the point. Having fun or loving a character is the same to me. Something might have been lost in translation though as English isn't my first language...
 

Why would you play one except if you really really love the class?

[Gya]

More than any other class in my PUG's I HATE seeing the Katari and Reaver because I know they are going down the vast majority of the time in Threatening. You might think it is obvious how to get them to succeed but the failure rate compared to any non-alchemist class in my experience says most people aren't seeing that path very well.

I'd disagree. For context, you need to know that I'm not very good, and I'll openly admit that. However, from my experience, the fact that I took a Katari into a threatening pug after only having played it 3 times before, and got 3 immortal medals in a row and clutched zone 5 on one of those occasions, means that outside of perilous, it's one of the easier classes. I have to admit, I had pretty good gear, but nowhere near top tier, and I am pretty goddam awful at this game. And it was laggy as hell. If I can do it, I'm pretty sure anyone can.

I'm not claiming it's impossible to play badly with katari, in fact I have played like a total moron and gotten downed, and so have several pugs I've played with. However, on threatening, enemies don't do enough damage to mitigate the fact that you'll be charging through them to rebuild guard every few seconds, and I've seen plenty of well played katari in pugs too.

[Drasca]

A decent player can pretty easily solo threatening Perilous with either Katari or Reaver.  Actually I hate seeing noob keepers worse than anything . . . and screw up the whole team's flow.

 

FTFY. I agree with both statements!

 

 

More than any other class in my PUG's

 

PuG's often suck regardless. Try Perilous. They may or may not suck less. Honestly, host start the game blind as the only player, you have the option to synergize with the team by choosing complementary classes. Join game, see Melee, bring Static Cage Keeper or Firewall / Firestorm Ele.

[hanoobken]

Drasca, I've gone over your Reaver build.  I understand how the synergy works and all that.  My question is, how much Constitution do you recommend for me to start soloing perilous?  I mean, not really the entire way, but like you said before, you usually end up soloing 3-4 zones before your friends join you.  I tried doing that yesterday.  I'm still trying to get used to not having mighty blow to deal with shielded Venatori and Templars.  It's a little easier with demons and I can usually go up to around the third zone, if I don't mess up.  Against Templars and Venatori, I usually die in zone 2, zone 1 if I mess up early on.  My current stats are 34, 50, 45. 

 

I got a little frustrated while I was practicing.  I was so used to having both Mighty Blow and Warhorn and it worked really well for me against everything except the demon commander.  Your build requires more skill which I currently do not possess, but I'm determined to get better at it.  I also got rid of my 5% HoK ring and use two 20% critical damage rings instead since we're landing guaranteed crits anyway.  I'd love to watch you play sometime.

[Drasca]

I got a little frustrated while I was practicing.  I was so used to having both Mighty Blow and Warhorn and it worked really well for me against everything except the demon commander.  Your build requires more skill which I currently do not possess, but I'm determined to get better at it.  I also got rid of my 5% HoK ring and use two 20% critical damage rings instead since we're landing guaranteed crits anyway.  I'd love to watch you play sometime.

 

Remember how they joked about Combat Roll all the time? You'll want to Combat Roll a lot. MB is a fair alternative to CR, but you don't really get the stamina boosts Katari have, and you lack the mobility without charge. You'll get a feel for when archers shoot, and enemies swing at you, and when to combat roll away, or strafe away from their arrows.

 

Learn to love the strafe buttons. Map them to A and D if you're on M&KB. The space and timing of WH before everything else takes some getting used to, but it seems you're doing fine there. You just need to learn to combat roll more and to approach better. i.e. practice, and think about how you could've done it better afterward.

 

If you're on PC, feel free to add me on Origin. I'm on the same name. Reaver IS frustrating, but rewarding as your skill level goes up.

 

I also recommend the +constitution arms and +heal bonus leg upgrades if you get them. The max is +16, but I only have the +11 myself. Also cooldown amulet, though willpower and dexterity are also good alternatives. Cunning / Constitution are OK too.

[hanoobken]

Remember how they joked about Combat Roll all the time? You'll want to Combat Roll a lot. MB is a fair alternative to CR, but you don't really get the stamina boosts Katari have, and you lack the mobility without charge. You'll get a feel for when archers shoot, and enemies swing at you, and when to combat roll away, or strafe away from their arrows.

 

Learn to love the strafe buttons. Map them to A and D if you're on M&KB. The space and timing of WH before everything else takes some getting used to, but it seems you're doing fine there. You just need to learn to combat roll more and to approach better. i.e. practice, and think about how you could've done it better afterward.

 

If you're on PC, feel free to add me on Origin. I'm on the same name. Reaver IS frustrating, but rewarding as your skill level goes up.

 

I also recommend the +constitution arms and +heal bonus leg upgrades if you get them. The max is +16, but I only have the +11 myself. Also cooldown amulet, though willpower and dexterity are also good alternatives. Cunning / Constitution are OK too.

Yeah I'm still using the 10% cooldown amulet.  RNG hasn't been kind to me.  I was really pissed off when my bro told me he just salvaged his 2 extra superb cooldown amulets.  I'll keep practicing.  Thanks for the vid!

[Divine Rays]

Let it be known that I'm still pretty new to this and do play like a noob sometimes. 

 

With that being said, I've played with every class, with the Reaver being the only exception. I'll refrain from rating her since she appears to be too squishy for my taste.

 

The Warriors

 

1. Legionnaire : He's slow but sturdy. Sword and Shield really aren't my thing but I will almost always be leveling him up with the other characters I often play with. He isn't a DPS machine, and that's my only issue with playing him. [7/10]
2. Katari : Granted he doesn't appear to keep up his guard like Legionnaire does, he is pretty sturdy and certainly does not need barriers to stay alive. I prefer playing with him over all the other warriors. He's sturdier than the Avvar, and he does more damage. Charging Bull easily knocks out a lot of enemies in queue. [9/10]
3. Templar : She's good for her AoE combos, but that's all there is to it, besides her being sturdy. I've gotten bored of playing with her. [5/10]
4. Avvar : The elemental damages are fabulous and if his skill build is set up correctly, he does fairly well. However. I prefer the Katari over him. [5/10]

 

The Rogues

 

1. Archer : Definitely my favourite character with a bow. Archer's Lance is a blessing. The only downside that annoys the hell out of me is his tendency to draw in lots of enemies even with the Amulet of Accord equipped. Being squishy becomes inevitable because of this. [9/10]
2. Hunter : Sturdier than the Archer, but causes less damage until Knife in the Shadows is obtained. I rarely go down that road with him. Getting Fallback Plan early makes running through Perilous slightly easier, but I clearly miss not having Archer's Lance (or just Long Shot) on him. [7/0]
3. Assassin : With bad gear, she is a PAIN to play with. Very squishy. My blood boiled the first couple times I've played with her. Quit for a while until I landed on daggers with above 150 base damage each. After that, I have a newly found respect for her. She is a killing machine with Knife in the Shadows and I Was Never Here passives. Still squishy but can easily take down a bunch of enemies in one flank. Damage is her best offense, and stealth is her best defense. Some people just stand surrounded by enemies while being visible. Definitely a bad way to get taken out. [9/10]
4. Alchemist : Pretty much the same as the Assassin, with Elemental Mines and Fire Flask allowing her to cause AoE damage. [8/10]
5. Duelist : Fun to play with because of the banter. Not really fond of her skill tree. Can be amazing if played right but I find myself putting in a lot more effort playing with her in comparison to the Archer (ranged attacks) and the Assassin (melee attacks). [6/10]
6. Silent Sister : DPS machine. Can easily take out enemies fast. Stealth is completely unnecessary for this rogue, so I don't miss not having it on the skill tree. A blessing to any team, if played right. [9/10]

 

The Mages 

 

1. Keeper : For a support character, she's good for her barriers. Not that great on offense for beginners. I'm not fond of her. [4/10]
2. Elementalist : A better support mage who also deals a lot of AoE damage. He's funny even. Probably because he does not have to return to some clan. Rion is bae. [10/10]
3. Arcane Warrior : He's a mage and a warrior. Versatile. Sturdy. Love his Stone Fist and Chain Lightning. But playing with him got a little boring over time as I find myself doing pretty much Chain Lightning and Spirit Blade a lot to keep the barrier up while doing damage. [8/10]
4. Necromancer : Death Siphon, Simulcarum and Spirit Mark makes her interesting to play. I do wish she had barrier. But I haven't invested a lot of time playing with her so I probably have more to discover. [5/10]
5. Saarebas : Can spam barrier with her from a corner. Can jump on top of a dragon on the tower. Can freeze and shatter enemies all around. Can be played in so many different ways. She really brings in variety. [9/10]
6. Virtuoso : Lots of people play him really well, but I find him a bit too overwhelming for my taste. I lose my composure. We're not built for each other, that's for sure. A pure support role is a mood killer for me. [4/10]

[JiaJM98]

Lego: well typically a tank. CS is a great way of generatibg support xp if you can reduce CD fast enough. BUT if you can manage to play him without any hok and sustain at 1 health, then it can deal monster damage. Also the Crescent proc will largely make up for his lack of damage.

Katari: semi tank. Physical effect generator and substantial single target damage.

Reaver: dragon rage. This says enough about her already. (Yes bruh, i know. 20k DR. I wont ever forget that.)

Templar: wombo combo plus crescent proc. Team buff as well of course.

Avvar: currently trending after snakebite's HB solo video. Chilled defence just bug out too often so I usually dont pkay him.

Archer: dps. No cd. Machine gun. Spike trap carpet bombing. This pretty much defines him well enough.

Hunter: nerfed version of archer. Have stealth but so what? Have throwing blades but it's far less impressive without any cd reduction.

Alchemist: jelly beans! That's the only skill you will ever need!

Assassin: as the name suggests, it's an assassin. Wit bosuns and hakkon you can 1 shot NM pride demon.

Duelist: I like virginity coins. Thats about it.

SS: throwing blade plus flow of battle = monster damage. With 2 SS you get 20k per hit on boss (at higher difficulties when they can survive a little while.) Ultimate boss / dragon killer. Addicting to play when you realise you can 1 shot or 2 shot almost anything even on NM.

Keeper: static cage aoe melt down with storm pact. And of course, static cage plus chain lightning wins over AW's chain lightning alone every single time.

Ele: born for fire pact. Born for firestorms. Born for fire mine. Born for fire wall.

AW: the one class that you don't need to L2P.

Necro: walking bomb pop corn explosions! Plus CC.

Bard: great support class. Great dps class. The choice is yours.

Saarebas: Baby sitter plus team buff. OR the ultimate dps mage with pact belt. Ultimate L2P class (without barrier)

[Silversmurf]

Necro

Spoiler

The thread, not the character

[Silversmurf]

SS: throwing blade plus flow of battle = monster damage. With 2 SS you get 20k per hit on boss (at higher difficulties when they can survive a little while.) Ultimate boss / dragon killer. Addicting to play when you realise you can 1 shot or 2 shot almost anything even on NM.

 

Trigger hidden blades immediately after throwing blades for extra damage. (both upgraded)

 

Hidden blades becomes crazy......

[Zorinho20_CRO]

I can never find that Collector gif,when I need it.

[JiaJM98]

There's dead weight, and there's worse than dead weight.

There is no such thing as dead weight in DAIMP so long as they can open the treasure room doors and pick up pots 

[Divine Rays]

There is no such thing as dead weight in DAIMP so long as they can open the treasure room doors and pick up pots 

 

Agreed.

 

But then lots of hosts don't like it when people open doors, but they can't even make it on their own through a level without the support.

 

Then they act all high and mighty, and treat others like dead weight.

[ThatBruhYouDK]

There is no such thing as dead weight in DAIMP so long as they can open the treasure room doors and pick up pots

Oh yes there is dead weight. I hate having to run through while someone just stands in one spot and does nothing. If you are with me and are getting smoked by me..just pick up gold, try something to benefit everyone. I WILL vote to kick if you stand there and do nothing..and I am usually the one against kicking.

[Drasca]

Oh yes there is dead weight. I hate having to run through while someone just stands in one spot and does nothing

 

Especially if we're all at the flag waiting to drop the banner. Just boot the guy.

 

 

Then they act all high and mighty, and treat others like dead weight.

 

I AM HIGH AND MIGHTY!

[Campout King]

Saarebas rules...

None of the others matter lol