1) Legionnaire: good
2) Katari: mediocre
3) Assassin: good
4) Archer: mediocre
5) Keeper: bad
6) Elementalist: good
7) Alchemist: good
8) Hunter: good
9) Necromancer: good (haters gonna hate)
10) Templar: good
11) Reaver: good
12) Arcane Warrior: mediocre
13) Avvar: good
14) Duelist: good
15) Virtuoso: good
16) Silent Sister: OP
17) Saarebas: OP
Too many words ITT
Not starting an argument, I just want to know:
9) Necromancer: good (haters gonna hate)
Not starting an argument, I just want to know:
Why do so many people think that Necro is so good? I'm curious
My stats are OP. I can do Damage with her.She isn't bad but not great. Pretty much relies on walking bomb and virulence to spread for her primary abilities, and blizzard is too far down the tree to consider taking over other skills/passives. Needs high willpower and cunning to do well.
Not starting an argument, I just want to know:
Why do so many people think that Necro is so good? I'm curious
First thing is the immunity argument. You're perfectly right to say that no faction is immune to everything. Where I tend to disagree with you is that you don't lose any DPS over it because there's always another skill that can cover.
OK, you got me there. His DPS drops off a bit, that is 100% true, but it is nowhere near what most people imagine it to be.
The reason I think it is mostly psychological is this part right here.
The Qunari example is very nice, but you deal most of your damage with Lady's Wrath. Crushing Leap and Hakkon's Charge are gimped by immunities left and right. If all 3 abilities were doing decent damage, you'd be doing a lot more sustained DPS. Alas, that's not the case.
Yes, some enemies are immune to Crushing Leap. Luckily, they are mostly the larger "elite" enemies. The weaker cannon-fodder type enemies are not immune to fire, and they are the type of enemies that swarm en masse, which is exactly what Crushing Leap is suited for. The cooldown time for it is about the same time it takes for loads of enemies to spawn in and swarm you.
Yes, some enemies are immune to Hakkon's Charge. You can still knock down Spearmen, then hit them with either Crushing Leap, Lady's Wrath, Auto-Attack, and they die very quickly from all those things. Shock-Troopers dies incredibly fast from Lady's Wrath, so whatever.
Yes, Lady's Wrath deals damage to all enemies, but that doesn't mean it deals most of my damage. All three abilities deal good damage. I feel like people just write off the ability that the single enemy they are focusing on is immune to, and forget that all the enemies around them are still weak to the other abilities.
Not only that, but you have more than these three abilities. If an enemy is immune to fire damage, you are not actually stuck to two other abilities with longer cooldowns. You still have Korth's Might, which can still deal cold damage, electrical damage, and physical damage, as well as auto-attack. You assume you have lost a third of your offensive capabilities, or that you only have two abilities to do damage with, but in reality you still have six of your eight avenues of offense open to you (if you include auto-attack).
Now change faction to Red Templars and Lady's Wrath is basically useless with all the lightning immune Horrors running around.
True, Lady's Wrath is useless against Horrors, but Hakkon's Charge can one-shot them on Nightmare. If you didn't hit all the Horrors with a nicely lined up Hakkon's Charge, or if you miss part of your charge, you can follow it up with Korth's Might, Crushing Leap (all the Horrors are likely dead at this point, but just in case they aren't), another Korth's Might, and yet another Korth's Might. All of those can be done back to back with no wait time for cooldown, which can probably then be followed by more Hakkon's Charge, if by some horrible miracle there are still Horrors around. The whole time you do this, other enemies around you are being hit my Lady's Wrath, Crushing Leap, and hopefully by Korth's Might and repeat Hakkon's Charges if you have good positioning going on. Again, most of this should be unnecessary unless you have low crit chance/no Hakkon's Valor.
Change the faction to Venatori and the mages are annoying as hell by being immune to a different element each round.
Yep. This is the Achilles Heel of the Avvar. Spellbinders actually do make it as hard to do damage as people make it out to be. You cannot use the ability that the barrier is immune to, because nothing around is weak to it. For this reason alone, I hate Venatori. On Heartbreaker it's even worse with the Mages constant CC and Fade Cloak. 
The last thing I'd like to point out is that solos are a bit less representative. Not that it's not a very valid situation, but in a 4 player team the enemies aren't swarming around you all the time, they move around your teammates too. Spreading the enemies has a tremendous impact on how much "total" damage you can do with AOE abilities.
It's actually a perfect representation of how I play in a group. I rush in before anyone else can aggro the spawn so that I can nuke them all right away. Pugs probably hate me for that, or they love me if they are the type that shouldn't be in Nightmare in the first place. I don't know. Whatever.
If your team is pulling to a corner, his AoE capabilities are still very useful, not only because they pack up on the corner/doorway, but also because of your abilities to hit through walls.
Maybe it's just my perception, the Avvar is still perfectly fine in my book. Personally, I'm much more aggressive with my Katari because I can spam my abilities in a 6 second rotation. I can't do that with my Avvar and I do see a difference. I'd like talk a bit more about it, but I need to go as real life is calling for now...
I haven't played the Katari much since I have acquired my Valor, so I can't really say if I can I would play him more or less aggressively than the Avvar. The Avvar can't spam all his abilities in a six second period, but he can spam a rotation on Hakkon's Charge, Crushing Leap, Lady's Wrath (with an uptime of 80% of the time), Korth's Might in between all the other abilities, plus the extra non-elemental smash. By the end of rotation, usually you can start all over again, with the exception of Crushing Leap with a higher cooldown, so the rotation isn't perfectly smooth.
TL;DR - All abilites still do full damage due to enemies on the periphery of your main target still being vulnerable to abilities the main target is immune to. Use situational awareness and knowledge of enemies elemental immunities/vulnerabilities to know when to use abilities and which enemies to attack with said abilities. Do not discount Korth's Might, seeing as it can deal damage from all elements, as well as apply elemental status', as well as physical damage, in an AoE.
Also, I am trying not to come across as trying to "convert" you to the Avvar. I am just trying to give some tips, clear up misconceptions, etc. If you feel like I am coming across that way, or that I am in any way sounding like "L2P Scrub/Noob" just kindly tell me to shut the **** up and I will take no offense. 
Necro was left behind with the later patches. As ThirdRace said, her damage doesn't scale well into NM and her most damaging spell can't be buffed by the pact belts. If there were a spirit pact belt she would be very strong, but then AW spirit blade would be OP. I bet that is why they left out the spirit pact belt, or should I say, why Luke left out the spirit pact belt. He always seemed to have a thing against the AW.
Chain explosions on walking bomb are still strong but you need others to speed up the kill. If you are playing with others who can give dps, the walking bomb explosion is still good, but by herself, it takes awhile for her to set them off.
About pommel strike on Avvar:
I've always felt it has no place on an Avvar since he's designed to maximize elemental aoe and you really only have 2-3 skills to play with since korth's might and to a lesser extent hakkon's charge are mandatory.
However, I've wondered whether Avvar could be built for max single target damage as well. Pommel strike could theoretically speaking be far more damaging on the Avvar than Katari. Couldn't you buff it with the elemental status buff, 50% fire buff on KM, and maybe even Rage of Avvar buff?
The patch to enable Walking Bomb to crit was amazing, but then the change that made manual detonation not spread killed it. If it would still manually spread and crit, it would actually be good. Pronto used to think it was great even without the ability to manual spread, mostly because it could crit. I see he has since realized how bad having no manual detonation spread actually is.
Also, sorry to any derailing I may have caused earlier. I just love the Avvar too much, and I feel like no one would take him seriously if he tried to defend himself because of his stupid Arcane Warrior-like voice. Please accept my deepest apologies. 
Edit:
About pommel strike on Avvar:
I've always felt it has no place on an Avvar since he's designed to maximize elemental aoe and you really only have 2-3 skills to play with since korth's might and to a lesser extent hakkon's charge are mandatory.
However, I've wondered whether Avvar could be built for max single target damage as well. Pommel strike could theoretically speaking be far more damaging on the Avvar than Katari. Couldn't you buff it with the elemental status buff, 50% fire buff on KM, and maybe even Rage of Avvar buff?
Ive been playing for months and didn't touch the Virtuoso. Man, wasd that a mistake! He is my favorite mage now, after I finally played him last week.Thank you ThirdRace for your, as always, great explanation. You are right there, when people do bring it into NM they tend to not do too hot. I usually bring in a Power Cord/ Hot Licks Virtuoso and just kill everything. Way more exp, as you said, than Necro.
. And him having an awesome AoE spell that also dispels is so cool.
For sure! And once your Willpower and cunning gets up you will be hitting crits for alot with either PC or HL. He is powerfulIve been playing for months and didn't touch the Virtuoso. Man, wasd that a mistake! He is my favorite mage now, after I finally played him last week.
I love being able to auto attack on the move, especially when it grants mana
He is suited for running around in melee, and since I prefer melee he was a great fit as a mage for me, without playing the boring AW.
-- snip --
Also, I am trying not to come across as trying to "convert" you to the Avvar. I am just trying to give some tips, clear up misconceptions, etc. If you feel like I am coming across that way, or that I am in any way sounding like "L2P Scrub/Noob" just kindly tell me to shut the **** up and I will take no offense.
Oh don't worry about how you come across, you're doing just fine. Giving arguments, posting videos and debating with logic is not what I would call arrogant, scrub or noob. Given the fact it's a forum on the Internet, I'd say it's mostly unexpected
I think we can both agree we got our personal preferences and it's fine.
THU-THU-THU-UUUUUUUUUUU-NDER DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEE!!!!!!This is unacceptable. We need a Thunderdome and clear victor.
Here's a video of myself playing the Katari vs Qunari on Nightmare.
Be lenient a bit, I haven't played in like 3 weeks so it was very weird in the first 10 minutes. Also, Bear Mauls the Wolves would have make it a lot easier on my health as those assassins were hurting me badly, but I still cleared it.
You'll see I'm mostly out in the open, which is not exactly a "safe" way to play, but I could afford it. For those without the stats, don't try this at home, you won't get the same results
I particularly love the Pommel Strike at 18:12...
I applaud this. Did a good job for not playing for a while. That's how I felt when I got on for the x2 exp weekend lol. But definitely did well. (I skimmed through lol, speed watching)Here's a video of myself playing the Katari vs Qunari on Nightmare.
Be lenient a bit, I haven't played in like 3 weeks so it was very weird in the first 10 minutes. Also, Bear Mauls the Wolves would have make it a lot easier on my health as those assassins were hurting me badly, but I still cleared it.
You'll see I'm mostly out in the open, which is not exactly a "safe" way to play, but I could afford it. For those without the stats, don't try this at home, you won't get the same results
https://youtu.be/P36SX8ivEPs
I particularly love the Pommel Strike at 18:12...
Here's a video of myself playing the Katari vs Qunari on Nightmare.
Be lenient a bit, I haven't played in like 3 weeks so it was very weird in the first 10 minutes. Also, Bear Mauls the Wolves would have make it a lot easier on my health as those assassins were hurting me badly, but I still cleared it.
You'll see I'm mostly out in the open, which is not exactly a "safe" way to play, but I could afford it. For those without the stats, don't try this at home, you won't get the same results
-Clip of Katari wrecking everything-
I particularly love the Pommel Strike at 18:12...
I do love the Katari, and I am glad you have found him to be fun to play (it would have been terribly sad if you had missed out on all that entertainment). He is a little counter-intuitive to play at first, because the safest place to be is often in the thick of battle, in order to have enough guard to survive. People seem to understand this for the Arcane Warrior, but fail to grasp that it holds even more true to the Katari. The Arcane Warrior has Fade Shield and Guardian Spirit to keep him alive, and all I used to hear from them is I can't pick anyone up. I need to keep fighting or I die", whereas the Katari has "Fade Guard" (which is nowhere near as effective as Fade Shield due to no guard bonus passives) and no form of death-protection. Still, I would hear those same Arcane Warriors screaming at me over voice chat (or even worse, spamming Over Here), telling me to pick them up, and that I was a scrub for running around attacking things and not picking up the Mighty Arcane Warrior so that he could carry us to victory. * facepalm*
I have never seen Pommel Strike hit multiple targets like that. Very impressive! You should put this in Pronto's Hall of Fame thread, seeing as this is just the sort of thing he created it for. My apologies to everyone who didn't want this thread to derail into a Katari/Avvar thread. I get carried away sometimes.
Also, you still have Combat Roll even though you have a Physical Immunity Amulet? I suppose I can understand. When I tried the Katari and Reaver on Pronto's profile it felt unnatural not to try to Combat Roll everywhere.
I have never seen Pommel Strike hit multiple targets like that. Very impressive! You should put this in Pronto's Hall of Fame thread, seeing as this is just the sort of thing he created it for. My apologies to everyone who didn't want this thread to derail into a Katari/Avvar thread. I get carried away sometimes.
Also, you still have Combat Roll even though you have a Physical Immunity Amulet? I suppose I can understand. When I tried the Katari and Reaver on Pronto's profile it felt unnatural not to try to Combat Roll everywhere.
Not starting an argument, I just want to know:
Why do so many people think that Necro is so good? I'm curious
For me, it's mainly about... Spirit Mark. Yes, as Snakebite said, Walking Bomb at one point was incredible with manual spread. That would have been the basis of my argument before the nerf (ie, the reason she used to be good) I don't even use it anymore on the Necro, though. So now you're probably scratching your head, thinking she should be rated mediocre, if not bad.
Belt of the Winter Pact.
That's right, I'm talking about the Ice Queen Necromancer. Here's the play - get Spirit Mark ASAP for self-rez. Equip the Belt of WP. You already have Winter's Grasp for one-shotting enemies that aren't cold resistant. Proceed to get Frost Step and Blizzard. Play super aggressively and get that Blizzard into big mobs (ie, be the first team member into a room/mob so you take all the aggro so that Blizzard hits most of the mob). Frost Step makes this easy to do. Be sure to manually cancel Blizzard so that it's always available (ie, so that the cooldown is never triggered). Keys to maintaining Blizzard are: Death Siphon (for the mana regen) and a staff that increases your mana pool, either by +magic upgrades or Hakkon.
Yes, I realize Blizzard comes super late, but you have Winter's Grasp and Frost Step for killing power early on with the Pact Belt equipped. Alternatively, you can skip Fade/Frost Step and rush Blizzard, then simply use it and WG for killing. Have to be cautious about using WG while Blizzard is active due to the mana drain, though.
Important! You will die a lot with this approach! But remember: you're a f*cking Necromancer. Death is no obstacle. You are now free to move about the Fade.
TL;DR Queen of the Dead Necro was good before WB nerf; Ice Queen (B*tch) Necro is still good with Belt of the Winter Pact.
I suppose I could pull that off if I played again. But her DPS is still wayyyyy lower than most of the classes. I like damageFor me, it's mainly about... Spirit Mark. Yes, as Snakebite said, Walking Bomb at one point was incredible with manual spread. That would have been the basis of my argument before the nerf (ie, the reason she used to be good) I don't even use it anymore on the Necro, though. So now you're probably scratching your head, thinking she should be rated mediocre, if not bad.
Belt of the Winter Pact.
That's right, I'm talking about the Ice Queen Necromancer. Here's the play - get Spirit Mark ASAP for self-rez. Equip the Belt of WP. You already have Winter's Grasp for one-shotting enemies that aren't cold resistant. Proceed to get Frost Step and Blizzard. Play super aggressively and get that Blizzard into big mobs (ie, be the first team member into a room/mob so you take all the aggro so that Blizzard hits most of the mob). Frost Step makes this easy to do. Be sure to manually cancel Blizzard so that it's always available (ie, so that the cooldown is never triggered). Keys to maintaining Blizzard are: Death Siphon (for the mana regen) and a staff that increases your mana pool, either by +magic upgrades or Hakkon.
Yes, I realize Blizzard comes super late, but you have Winter's Grasp and Frost Step for killing power early on with the Pact Belt equipped. Alternatively, you can skip Fade/Frost Step and rush Blizzard, then simply use it and WG for killing. Have to be cautious about using WG while Blizzard is active due to the mana drain, though.
Important! You will die a lot with this approach! But remember: you're a f*cking Necromancer. Death is no obstacle. You are now free to move about the Fade.
TL;DR Queen of the Dead Necro was good before WB nerf; Ice Queen (B*tch) Necro is still good with Belt of the Winter Pact.
Okay, okay, I have to rescind my bad mouthing of the Katari. Have played him a bit more lately with the immune amulet and the hakkon wackon 2 hander and he's not bad. I also had very rarely used pommel strike in the past for some reason so it was clearly a learn to play issue with me.
The following is me just being a troll. No love lost TheThirdRace.
Katari is a "weird" class as it's either atrociously bad or amazingly good, there's no middle ground, at least in my experience.
It's also worth mentioning that he doesn't suffer from elemental immunities like the Avvar do on Nightmare since all his damage is physical. As soon as you can keep up your Guard, his sustained DPS is much higher than the Avvar too.
I have an issue with the bolded statement. 
I just can't see the Avvar being better than the Katari, sorry.
Of course, this is my perception with 170/170/200 stats. If you have 400 Willpower, there's a chance the Avvar can kill 1 shot in Nightmare and that would make him the better choice in that case.
My Willpower is just above 200.
Yep, Katari is a boss; no argument there.
I know this will probably not change your opinion of the Avvar, and that's absolutely fine. I hold nothing against you at all for not thinking exactly like I do. The world would be a dull place if everyone had the same opinions.
Oh, I totally hold it against you, TheThirdRace...
I'm always open to discuss builds and tactics with people that actually want to discuss instead of "convert" me
Maybe it's just my perception, the Avvar is still perfectly fine in my book. Personally, I'm much more aggressive with my Katari because I can spam my abilities in a 6 second rotation. I can't do that with my Avvar and I do see a difference. I'd like talk a bit more about it, but I need to go as real life is calling for now...
Trying very hard to "convert" you.
Also, I am trying not to come across as trying to "convert" you to the Avvar. I am just trying to give some tips, clear up misconceptions, etc. If you feel like I am coming across that way, or that I am in any way sounding like "L2P Scrub/Noob" just kindly tell me to shut the **** up and I will take no offense.
I totally am. And I will take offense if you tell me to shut the **** up.
I think we can both agree we got our personal preferences and it's fine.
Nope, never.
This is unacceptable. We need a Thunderdome and clear victor.
Yes, Pronto, yes we do.
Here's a video of myself playing the Katari vs Qunari on Nightmare.
I particularly love the Pommel Strike at 18:12...
Nice Pommel Strike, man.
Here's my Avvar's rebuttal:
Retour en haut