Questa discussione ha avuto 55 risposte

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

I don't know whether I got he numbers right, but I constantly see my Fire Mine hitting for 7k - 9k crits, and with 30-40% crit chance, they happen pretty often, especially because they hit multiple targets.
Also my Immolate hits for 2.6k damage regularly, and 2x 2.6k isn't uncommon, since it is AOE.
I guess having high Attack helps a lot, too.

Regardless, the best mage builds depend more on the basic trees and less on specializations. Thus playing a full melee KE is one of the least effective approaches to the class, albeit so popular.

 

Agree on this. The specializations are just that, specializations. They will never diminish the strength of core mage builds. KE as OP is a busted myth. DW rogue can do quad-damage and still be played just as safe. I could go on endlessly about this. 

I think what really matters in this game is gear and crafting. Any class with any spec can be equally godlike with the current crafting system.

[TevinterMagister]

I think what really matters in this game is gear and crafting. Any class with any spec can be equally godlike with the current crafting system.

Sounds like another Skyrim inspired feature

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Sounds like another Skyrim inspired feature

Making 1734 iron daggers and hunting a billion crabs with bound weapons for soulgem to create full daedric with double enchant comes to mind

[MadDemiurg]

Fire mine crits can go up to 16 or even 20k if you do some serious min maxing (and you can spam multiple through flashpoint). KE is the best fire mage because fade shield allows you to maximize chaotic focus damage. I would say this is actually quite competitive with any dps build aside from focus. So "KE has crap damage" is also a myth. EB spam with double hidden blades masterwork on RM has a lot of potential though, but I was too lazy to fully test and optimize it (was building Solas this way but his gear was far from optimal). 100k in 10 seconds sounds like a good benchmark . Can RM do it?

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

Fire mine crits can go up to 16 or even 20k if you do some serious min maxing (and you can spam multiple through flashpoint). KE is the best fire mage because fade shield allows you to maximize chaotic focus damage. I would say this is actually quite competitive with any dps build aside from focus. So "KE has crap damage" is also a myth. EB spam with double hidden blades masterwork on RM has a lot of potential though, but I was too lazy to fully test and optimize it (was building Solas this way but his gear was far from optimal). 100k in 10 seconds sounds like a good benchmark . Can RM do it?

The problem with fire spells vs EB is fire immunes. EB is based on staff ele damage, which is why I prefer it personally. Same-type masterwork dont work btw if its the same tier (10% HB + 10% HB) and it seems proccing it twice does not work due to the animations not being able to overide eachother. 

Generally I agree that fire is better overall.

[Nightdragon8]

My first mage was KE, Main attack was Spirt blade, with the Ice thing that lets you move across the map, with barrier (Just in case for myself or my group for dragons or big AOE attacks, Then the KE special, then Fire, and chain lighting to get more shields with multi enamies and I put the one that shoots out a bunch of bolts to deal with hard to reach targets that I couldn't run to, and the immulate for the DoT.

 

I pretty much never ran out of shields,

[JaegerBane]

Regardless, the best mage builds depend more on the basic trees and less on specializations. Thus playing a full melee KE is one of the least effective approaches to the class, albeit so popular.

+1. At a minimum, regardless of spec, any Mage that doesn't take Barrier and Energy Barrage is just not really viable.

[Wodan Yrmir]

if you combine KE with Spirit spec like the static cage (max) they can get pull into one spot and spam the aura blade on them right? or it it better use the rift mage and spam aoe their butt on fire?

[godlike13]

if you combine KE with Spirit spec like the static cage (max) they can get pull into one spot and spam the aura blade on them right? or it it better use the rift mage and spam aoe their butt on fire?

 

Oh u can combine Static cage and Spirit blade to wreck a group. Though now Spirit blade doesn't combo, so u won't get that, but its still awesome. Especially if u have the enchantment that gives u a damage bonus for ever enemy within 8 meters. U can also even throw in a Fire mine in the middle to add even more hurt. . 

[momasri]

To me the choice between KE and Rift Mage is a choice between playing melee or a like a ranged mage (control - debuffs/buffs - damage spells). Why? Because the DPS in this game doesn't really matter.  We aren't doing WOW raids. I don't care about killing the monsters as efficiently as possible.  I want the most fun way to kill the monsters with my companions.

 

That's why before you get into the stats.  You need to first answer the question of play style: melee or ranged caster (control/buff/damage).

If you enjoy melee combat but want to cast a spell sword and fire bombs instead of using a sword and grenades, then roll a KE.

If you enjoy being a ranged caster, then go rift or necro.

 

I tried all the KE  builds and I didn't like playing a KE because I love playing ranged combat not melee.  I hate having to run up to things, or getting knocked over, or not being able to see the whole battle.       KE felt wrong for me.   I tried rift and it felt right.

[JaegerBane]

 
That's why before you get into the stats.  You need to first answer the question of play style: melee or ranged caster (control/buff/damage).
If you enjoy melee combat but want to cast a spell sword and fire bombs instead of using a sword and grenades, then roll a KE.
If you enjoy being a ranged caster, then go rift or necro.

This advice is too simplistic. A properly built KE can be easily played as a ranged caster with the caveat being that it doesn't have to run away if directly attacked - stuff like Fade Shield and Fade Cloak work just as well at range as they do up close and Spirit Blade's upgrade *only* works against ranged attacks. It gains a benefit from melee of course, but that doesn't mean one must always do it if the situation doesn't favour it.

Similarly, a properly built Rift Mage does not have to be played as an exclusively long-ranged caster, as its crowd control and weakening effects allow it much more room for error playing close up, allowing much more efficient use of Barrier, since you won't have to choose between yourself and your tanks.

The two specialisations are actually more about defence vs crowd control rather than the superficial melee vs ranged... both classes can handle both aspects but the KE is better suited to directly absorbing damage, while the Rift Mage is better suited to cancelling it out altogether.

[Kilyra]

I'm so glad this thread is up here. I've been delaying this choice and have like 6 ability points saved up...so my hesitation is straight up stalling me out! I was Rift Mage all the way until I saw the KE had the only heal in the game. I know that's a stupid thing to hesitate on, but it seems like a big deal at the same time. And I know I can just bring Viv with me for that one spell but...she annoys the heck out of me. Listening to her belittle my favourite characters all the time makes me mental! haha

 

But after reading all of this, I'm thinking for the sake of one spell, it's not really such a big deal. If I can outfit everyone with fade-touched obsidian armour, bring along regen and 12 health potions and have massive damage on the outset, one spell shouldn't make or break my team...

 

Sorry, nothing helpful to add to the conversation, just a "thanks for having the same questions as me" comment

[WidePaul]

I'm on my first playthrough and was leaning more towards rift mage, but when I saw I had almost all the needed knight enchanter materials already and none of the rift mage ones, my choice was made for me and I don't regret it. I was a fan of the arcane warrior though.

[Kilyra]

I'm on my first playthrough and was leaning more towards rift mage, but when I saw I had almost all the needed knight enchanter materials already and none of the rift mage ones, my choice was made for me and I don't regret it. I was a fan of the arcane warrior though.

Funny enough, I've got everything for the necromancer. Hmm.....

[momasri]

This advice is too simplistic. A properly built KE can be easily played as a ranged caster with the caveat being that it doesn't have to run away if directly attacked - stuff like Fade Shield and Fade Cloak work just as well at range as they do up close and Spirit Blade's upgrade *only* works against ranged attacks. It gains a benefit from melee of course, but that doesn't mean one must always do it if the situation doesn't favour it.

Similarly, a properly built Rift Mage does not have to be played as an exclusively long-ranged caster, as its crowd control and weakening effects allow it much more room for error playing close up, allowing much more efficient use of Barrier, since you won't have to choose between yourself and your tanks.

The two specialisations are actually more about defence vs crowd control rather than the superficial melee vs ranged... both classes can handle both aspects but the KE is better suited to directly absorbing damage, while the Rift Mage is better suited to cancelling it out altogether.

 

I would disagree b/c of  the key difference that a KE converts damage into shield and a rift mage converts damage into mana.   This means tha while KE has the potential to play a ranged caster it is not a very good one since it runs out of mana very quickly.   This is why I hated about the KE.  I had to end up running in to fight or use my basic attack.

 

This is why the key decision to make  is do you want more shields and become a warrior or do you want more mana to cast more spells.  For a example a rift mage casts any spell that does damage over time (fire wall) and basically you have an infinite mana pool to cast any spell.  A KE gets more shields. Why would a ranged caster need more shields!! They need mana.

 

Both classes have their form of crowd control and defence.    Both mage builds can fear, freeze, or paralyze.  

[JaegerBane]

I would disagree b/c of  the key difference that a KE converts damage into shield and a rift mage converts damage into mana.   This means tha while KE has the potential to play a ranged caster it is not a very good one since it runs out of mana very quickly.  

With some decent kit it's not that hard to keep up enough mana regen to allow to cast with minimal delays, and if you're using conductive charge then you *have* to be burning mana at a heavy rate to maintain the damage boost.

This is why I hated about the KE Why would a ranged caster need more shields!!

So that they don't have to worry too much about controlling or managing aggro. So they can make best use of Chaotic Focus. So they don't get splatted by enemies that are immune to crowd control. So they don't die to stealthed or ranged enemies.

This is what I meant when I said 'too simplistic'... There's a lot of ways one can use the magic system in DA:I and it goes way beyond just thinking KE=melee/Rift=ranged.

[momasri]

"So that they don't have to worry too much about controlling or managing aggro. So they can make best use of Chaotic Focus. So they don't get splatted by enemies that are immune to crowd control. So they don't die to stealthed or ranged enemies."

 

You're proving my point about game play and fun.  

 

Control/Aggro/Death from Rogues are the limitations that traditionally make playing a ranged caster fun. A mage should have to "run" away from a giant trying to bash it or a rogue.   If you remove the risk of death, by hacking the builds + gear,  then you make the game 100% boring.   Might as well just type in a console command to kill all the mobs.    

 

You are talking about producing a mage build that does it all.  Melee/Ranged, with high defence, large mana pool, and high DPS.  To me that is 100% boring.    If  wanted to be able to just walk in and kill everything,  then instead of wasting my time with builds and gear I would just put the game on easy mode.  From a "fun" perspective there it little difference.   

[momasri]

I'm so glad this thread is up here. I've been delaying this choice and have like 6 ability points saved up...so my hesitation is straight up stalling me out! I was Rift Mage all the way until I saw the KE had the only heal in the game. I know that's a stupid thing to hesitate on, but it seems like a big deal at the same time. And I know I can just bring Viv with me for that one spell but...she annoys the heck out of me. Listening to her belittle my favourite characters all the time makes me mental! haha

 

But after reading all of this, I'm thinking for the sake of one spell, it's not really such a big deal. If I can outfit everyone with fade-touched obsidian armour, bring along regen and 12 health potions and have massive damage on the outset, one spell shouldn't make or break my team...

 

Sorry, nothing helpful to add to the conversation, just a "thanks for having the same questions as me" comment

 

You should save.  Make both builds and try them out.   we'd all be really curious to hear your thoughts.  

 

 

The 1st time I tried the KE I was like WOW this is cool, 5 fights later I was like ok this is boring.  I like this game too much to make the fights  a grid.

[goofyomnivore]

Rift Mage is one of the best specializations for building focus up since you can do the cross class combos by yourself with weakened and build the meter up quickly. So if you really like casting focus abilities I'd consider that.

 

Knight Enchanter IMO is better fi you are a min/max person, but Rift Mage is waaaaay to much fun you're just slinging all kinds of spells for days.

[JaegerBane]

You're proving my point about game play and fun.

You didn't have a point about gameplay and fun. Up until now your argument was about what abilities worked best for a role. Now you're talking about gameplay balance - that's the opposite of what you were getting at.

Control/Aggro/Death from Rogues are the limitations that traditionally make playing a ranged caster fun. A mage should have to "run" away from a giant trying to bash it or a rogue. If you remove the risk of death, by hacking the builds + gear, then you make the game 100% boring. Might as well just type in a console command to kill all the mobs.

You'd have a point if the KE 'removed the risk of death'.... But it doesn't. A hybrid ranged/melee KE plays a little like a Mass Effect Vanguard in that's risk of death is tied to how much agression it has. Played perfectly, yes, it can survive heavy damage, but that's true of anything.

Arguing that playing a hybrid KE is equivalent to just using console commands implies that you have no idea what you're talking about.

You are talking about producing a mage build that does it all. Melee/Ranged, with high defence, large mana pool, and high DPS. To me that is 100% boring. If wanted to be able to just walk in and kill everything, then instead of wasting my time with builds and gear I would just put the game on easy mode. From a "fun" perspective there it little difference.

Not at all. A KE is flexible enough to work as a hybrid but it can't do every task - a ranged Nuker/melee can't handle squad support, for example. To be honest it sounds like you're quoting from a wiki rather than any experience, so I'd suggest that you put some time into experimenting with the spec before slating it as 'not fun'... The KE has a funny habit of mirroring its user's imagination in that it plays as interestingly as one wishes to play it.

As for 'fun'.... What one person finds 'fun' may be different to what anyone else does. It is irrelevant to the argument you were making above, which was based on what abilities worked best. One minute you were saying that the KE can't do this, the next minute you were saying the KE is boring because it can. If you find the Rift Mage more 'fun' then by all means, fill your boots - but don't dress it up as anything other than that. There are people looking for advice on these forums, after all.

[Jazharah]

KE is nice to faceroll through hard or nightmare with and soloing dragons without scratching your healthbar.

Rift Mage is fun on any difficulty and really keeps the mage casting.

[Angloassassin]

Speaking as someone who just tried Rift Mage on Nightmare - It's.... Very trying...

 

Aside from Stonefist being a godly AoE attack - and Firestorm Focus Ability. Everything else is kinda shite. PotA only works on enemies that can be pulled in, Most wildlife seems immune to that. Same with Veilstrike, KE is just far more damaging and productive. Ironic given it's 2-button reputation.

[sunnydxmen]

knight  enchanter disruption field even works on coryfish  in dragons feet  in heads if you time it right while slowed they take extra damage knight enchanter is the most too me.

[VilniusNastavnik]

I played KE and while it has great passives, the gameplay wasn't too fun for me. It would be different if you could summon a spirit sword for a certain amount of time, but you basically get one strike which means click- wait- click- wait. Rift mage looks pretty badass so that's what I'm going with next.

Hold the button down, it auto swings so you do not need to button mash.

On another note.
I am still trying to work out what to play my mage as.
so far the plan is:
 

Winter:

Winters grasp+

Fade step+

Mana surge (If I take barrier)

Winter stillness

Frost mastery

 

Inferno:

Immolate+

Fire mine+ (maybe)

Flashpoint

Pyromancer

Cleanburn

 

Storm:

Chain Lightning+

Energy Barage+

Stormbringer

Conductive current

Gathering Storm

Static Charge

 

Not sure how much use Conductive current is if Rift or KE have an almost always full mana bar though..

 

Tossing up whether to go KE for the passives and throw a few points into spirit or go RM for the weaken tree.

[godlike13]

If u use other spells besides just Spirit blade then u won't always have a full mana bar.