49 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

The Black City. Original Sin. The elves did it. It's all their fault.

I had a theory on the city for years now. Elven lore states that the ancient elves would spend hundreds of years at a time in the Fade. Why wouldn't they have a city there? After DAI, I'm almost sure the Black City is their doing. Because we learned some very important facts. First and foremost, eluvians work on a hub system. Second, Tevinter had nothing to do with Arlathan's fall, it was elves warring on other elves. Third, the ancient elves, much like the Protheans, were far less benevolent than everyone envisioned them.

Now, everyone remember back to the Dalish origin in DA:O. The Warden and an idiot friend find a working eluvian. The description of what they see sounds eerily like the Black City even before the thing starts puking out darkspawn and corruption. It has long been a theory that the eluvian seen there led to the Black City and for good reason.

I suggest that it was indeed the Black City, in particular an eluvian hub in the Black City. Because it was an elven city. Likely the taint is some form of magical weapon of mass destruction one elven nation used on another. With no survivors, the taint is contained. No harm, no foul. Until some foolish magisters on a fool's errand unleash all horror. This also matches up with Corypheus' story that the city was already tainted and corrupted when they arrived.

The only question that remains is what monster whispered in the ears of the magisters to go there. One interesting thing we learn from Corypheus' last words. "Dumat, ancient ones! If you exist, if you ever truly existed, aid me now!" This clearly tells us that possibly the most powerful priest of Dumat to have ever lived never had any absolute evidence of his existence. We always believed the Tevinter old gods interacted with their people on a regular basis. God-kings as it were. Apparently this is not the case. Like the Maker, they may be no more than the fevered dreams of tyrants trying to justify their atrocities with religion. Which is all well and good, except... who sent the magisters, and why?

[TheJediSaint]

The Elves get all the credit, typical.

[Vandicus]

Eluvians don't connect to the Fade normally(as we find out in DA:I). It is abnormal for that Eluvian in the Origin story to have connected to what appears to be the Black City.

 

I haven't played the game carefully enough to successfully ally with the elves, but the fact that they preserve themselves through sleep instead of staying awake and procreating to maintain their numbers suggests the ancient elves were not conventionally immortal.

 

The Well itself seems like a plausible proxy for elven immortality(the passing on of memories into new bodies).

[Dobyk]

Eluvians don't connect to the Fade normally(as we find out in DA:I). It is abnormal for that Eluvian in the Origin story to have connected to what appears to be the Black City.

 

I haven't played the game carefully enough to successfully ally with the elves, but the fact that they preserve themselves through sleep instead of staying awake and procreating to maintain their numbers suggests the ancient elves were not conventionally immortal.

 

The Well itself seems like a plausible proxy for elven immortality(the passing on of memories into new bodies).

 

 

Well, Solas did mention elves were naturally immortal.... without the aid of any magic, so it will be interesting to find out more in the future. "Tis' was just part of being elven"

[Taleroth]

Eluvians remind me a lot of the Ways from Wheel of Time.

 

They touched something dark. That's all it means.

[Vandicus]

Well, Solas did mention elves were naturally immortal.... without the aid of any magic, so it will be interesting to find out more in the future. "Tis' was just part of being elven"

 

Still haven't finished his companion quest stuff, how and when does the topic come up?

 

We should remember that Solas is maintaining a persona. In party banter he calls the Maker a plausible explanation for Templar abilities. In theory, Solas should have much more than a vague notion as to whether something like the Maker can or does exist. I don't think in the context of him pretending to be, well himself as we know him, we can take anything he says to be word of wolf.

[fizzypop]

Except the dude who was there and we know is a dark spawn hint hint the big bad of DAI hint hint is a human. But sure why not?! Why don't we blame the warden and hawke too! Let's just blame all kinds of random people!

[Dobyk]

Still haven't finished his companion quest stuff, how and when does the topic come up?

 

We should remember that Solas is maintaining a persona. In party banter he calls the Maker a plausible explanation for Templar abilities. In theory, Solas should have much more than a vague notion as to whether something like the Maker can or does exist. I don't think in the context of him pretending to be, well himself as we know him, we can take anything he says to be word of wolf.

 

It's pretty much in the first conversations, if you are a Dalish that is. True, he keeps up a face, but I like to think he does say the truth when he speaks about "spells that took centuries to cast" and "crystal spirals twisting through treetops, and palaces floating among the clouds. That's what was lost". Makes you tear up, if you're an elf.

[fizzypop]

I fully believe that Solas does think the maker is real, but that doesn't mean the maker is what others say he is. My theory is the "maker" is really a stupid powerful ancient demon or spirit. Corypheus talks about how the golden city wasn't golden when they got there. Perhaps that's because it was never really golden, it was black. They were being used to create a way for said demon/spirit to escape. Something happened, went wrong, it couldn't escape, and they were casted out as dark spawn. It would explain why the "maker" allows mages to exist. The demon/spirit needs them. It would also explain why Corypheus thinks there is no "god" to save them. He saw that the "maker" wasn't as they thought it was thus just another demon/spirit.

[Pierce Miller]

Corypheus always reminds me of the Architect. I seriously thought we'd have seen him this time around.

[Rifneno]

It's pretty much in the first conversations, if you are a Dalish that is. True, he keeps up a face, but I like to think he does say the truth when he speaks about "spells that took centuries to cast" and "crystal spirals twisting through treetops, and palaces floating among the clouds. That's what was lost". Makes you tear up, if you're an elf.

Then he gets to the park about the Vallaslin being slave markings in Arlathan, and you get a little less nostalgic for the good old days. Or at least I'd hope you would.

[Taleroth]

Except the dude who was there and we know is a dark spawn hint hint the big bad of DAI hint hint is a human. But sure why not?! Why don't we blame the warden and hawke too! Let's just blame all kinds of random people!

Yes, but what infected him?

[Rifneno]

Corypheus always reminds me of the Architect. I seriously thought we'd have seen him this time around.

Of course he does. He's a tainted magister too. Anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves. He's a sentient, highly intelligent darkspawn who wields extremely powerful magic and appears like a human whose clothing and skin have been melded together - almost as if he'd gone through some sort of teleportation gone horribly wrong. And some people still believe "he's just a darkspawn who was born differently." Seems totally legit.

[Vandicus]

It's pretty much in the first conversations, if you are a Dalish that is. True, he keeps up a face, but I like to think he does say the truth when he speaks about "spells that took centuries to cast" and "crystal spirals twisting through treetops, and palaces floating among the clouds. That's what was lost". Makes you tear up, if you're an elf.

I've played dwarf and am working on a Qunari right now.

 

Those conversations don't come up for them.

 

If the elves were naturally immortal(as opposed to immortal through magic that they lost access to), this makes their fall much more mysterious. 

 

I've theorized previously that if the elves were natural immortals and humanity spread some kind of disease that cut short their immortality, surely there would be elves who had survived to the present day simply by being sufficiently isolated, yet we find no ancient elven hermits. Now that we have found ancient elves, it appears that though they were isolated from humanity and the rest of the world they still lost their immortality.

 

It would seem the elves, as powerful as they were(the artifacts that exist in present Thedas certainly suggest their mastery of magic seems to have been genuine), did not understand the reasons for their fall. Additionally, Solas doesn't seem to demonstrate the hatred of humanity one would expect considering what elven lore says humanity's mere presence does to elves.

 

Perhaps Solas had something to do with what happened to the elves.

[fizzypop]

Yes, but what infected him?

What do you mean? He's a darkspawn. We know that was punishment for "corrupting" the golden city. Regardless if the maker is really a god or not doesn't matter much. I don't think Corypheus was lying about what happened. Trust me if the elves were at fault the humans would already be blaming them instead of themselves. Since the darkspawn are mostly human it makes sense. There is really no evidence for elves being involved in it.

[Dobyk]

Then he gets to the park about the Vallaslin being slave markings in Arlathan, and you get a little less nostalgic for the good old days. Or at least I'd hope you would.

 

Well, I get more realistic to be honest. I still don't see how people get shocked about Arlathan. Like, seriously, look at the Roman empire - they had slaves too, but few empires rival their cultural heritage. Having a ruthless caste system is nothing new, especially when we are talking about ancient societies. Also, the followers of Mythal had vallaslin on, so it was probably a form of blood magic binding a person to another one, be it servant to master or priest to god. I still don't see how this is "evil" considering present-day Tevinter who is STILL using slavery. It's like booing America's cultural and technological advancements because of all the **** they did (slavery, hello?). So, being nostalgic about a lost advanced civilization is different than making a commentary about it's outdated social structure. And by the way, Tevinter were still jerks, as they took the opportunity to enslave a whole civilization while it had its own civil wars. Even if Gaider tweeted that ancient elves sacrificed babies, I would still hate Tevinter more and feel nostalgic (if bitter) about Arlathan....

[Vandicus]

What do you mean? He's a darkspawn. We know that was punishment for "corrupting" the golden city. Regardless if the maker is really a god or not doesn't matter much. I don't think Corypheus was lying about what happened. Trust me if the elves were at fault the humans would already be blaming them instead of themselves. Since the darkspawn are mostly human it makes sense. There is really no evidence for elves being involved in it.

 

The OP's theory is more that elves built the Golden City rather than being the ones who corrupted it.

 

 

I find it somewhat unlikely, because the magisters conquered Arlathan. The magisters(unless they were incredibly averse to learning elven knowledge, which other records don't seem to indicate) would have learned of this from elven records of magic.

 

If the elves had built a city in the Fade they would have written about it somewhere. If the elves had written about it somewhere, the Tevinters would have learned about it when they conquered them.

[Dobyk]

I've played dwarf and am working on a Qunari right now.

 

Those conversations don't come up for them.

 

If the elves were naturally immortal(as opposed to immortal through magic that they lost access to), this makes their fall much more mysterious. 

 

I've theorized previously that if the elves were natural immortals and humanity spread some kind of disease that cut short their immortality, surely there would be elves who had survived to the present day simply by being sufficiently isolated, yet we find no ancient elven hermits. Now that we have found ancient elves, it appears that though they were isolated from humanity and the rest of the world they still lost their immortality.

 

It would seem the elves, as powerful as they were(the artifacts that exist in present Thedas certainly suggest their mastery of magic seems to have been genuine), did not understand the reasons for their fall. Additionally, Solas doesn't seem to demonstrate the hatred of humanity one would expect considering what elven lore says humanity's mere presence does to elves.

 

Perhaps Solas had something to do with what happened to the elves.

 

 

Very true. While we can explain why they falled (civil war and servant-class uprising, then attack from Tevinter), we can't explain why they lost their magic, their immortality and so on. This is a mystery, considering that no matter how powerful Tevinter was, a fragmented elven empire still possesses immense, terrible magics.

[Taleroth]

What do you mean? He's a darkspawn. We know that was punishment for "corrupting" the golden city. Regardless if the maker is really a god or not doesn't matter much. I don't think Corypheus was lying about what happened. Trust me if the elves were at fault the humans would already be blaming them instead of themselves. Since the darkspawn are mostly human it makes sense. There is really no evidence for elves being involved in it.

Punishment for corrupting the golden city is the Chantry's interpretation.

 

Corypheus says it was black when they got there. Which could easily be interpreted as it being black already. In the line of thought of this theory, the Elves were the ones who blackened it.

 

Corypheus and co. just brought it back with them.

[fizzypop]

The OP's theory is more that elves built the Golden City rather than being the ones who corrupted it.

 

 

I find it somewhat unlikely, because the magisters conquered Arlathan. The magisters(unless they were incredibly averse to learning elven knowledge, which other records don't seem to indicate) would have learned of this from elven records of magic.

 

If the elves had built a city in the Fade they would have written about it somewhere. If the elves had written about it somewhere, the Tevinters would have learned about it when they conquered them.

Ah I guess I read that wrong, but I agree with you very unlikely. We don't have much evidence for that and elves definitely would've wrote it down. I'd think Corypheus would have mentioned it if he saw elves hanging around all pissed off as well. Given flemeth and Solas I'm surprised people don't think the maker exists. Maker can exist and still not be a god. I mean anything that's stupidly powerful is going to look like a god to people who don't have that power. So I think the "maker" exists, but I don't necessarily think the chantry has the real story.

[Pierce Miller]

Taleroth, on 25 Nov 2014 - 7:51 PM, said:

Punishment for corrupting the golden city is the Chantry's interpretation.

 

Corypheus says it was black when they got there. Which could easily be interpreted as it being black already. In the line of thought of this theory, the Elves were the ones who blackened it.

 

Corypheus and co. just brought it back with them.

This makes a lot of sense but I honestly think it's not as simple as "the elves did it". Could it be that it was always black, that the darkspawn exist for a reason. Maybe they're the makers true children

[Vandicus]

Punishment for corrupting the golden city is the Chantry's interpretation.

 

Corypheus says it was black when they got there. Which could easily be interpreted as it being black already. In the line of thought of this theory, the Elves were the ones who blackened it.

 

Corypheus and co. just brought it back with them.

 

 

The City had to appear Golden at one point.

 

Prior to the Magisters' attempt to enter, they believed it to be Golden. We know magisters visited the Fade like mages commonly do. That means from the exterior, they saw it as a Golden city.

 

Either it was covered by an illusion prior to the forced entry, the forced entry caused it to turn black, or a simultaneous event elsewhere caused it to become black as they entered.

[Rifneno]

And by the way, Tevinter were still jerks, as they took the opportunity to enslave a whole civilization while it had its own civil wars. Even if Gaider tweeted that ancient elves sacrificed babies, I would still hate Tevinter more and feel nostalgic (if curious) about Arlathan....

No argument about Tevinter. They're monsters. I'm simply saying - the ancient elves were no better.

The OP's theory is more that elves built the Golden City rather than being the ones who corrupted it.
 
 
I find it somewhat unlikely, because the magisters conquered Arlathan. The magisters(unless they were incredibly averse to learning elven knowledge, which other records don't seem to indicate) would have learned of this from elven records of magic.
 
If the elves had built a city in the Fade they would have written about it somewhere. If the elves had written about it somewhere, the Tevinters would have learned about it when they conquered them.

First, no, I also maintain that it's highly likely that elves created the taint as well. Humans unleashed it, of that there is little question (some dwarven legends say they began in the Deep Roads even before the Magisters, so there is little question). But I think it's very likely elves created it and left it contained.

Second, either you're in the spoiler forum without finishing the game or you took the lazy route in the Temple of Mythal. The elves there drop quite a bombshell - humans had nothing at all to do with the fall of Arlathan. It was the elves themselves. They were warring amongst themselves so intensely that they destroyed their very civilization. All the ancient crimes (not the modern ones) that Dalish pin on humans were committed by the elves themselves.

[fizzypop]

I'm guessing it was an Illusion perhaps even one they created themselves. I mean the fade is a plane shaped by imagination. Re: the golden city

[Taleroth]

 

Ah I guess I read that wrong, but I agree with you very unlikely. We don't have much evidence for that and elves definitely would've wrote it down. I'd think Corypheus would have mentioned it if he saw elves hanging around all pissed off as well. Given flemeth and Solas I'm surprised people don't think the maker exists. Maker can exist and still not be a god. I mean anything that's stupidly powerful is going to look like a god to people who don't have that power. So I think the "maker" exists, but I don't necessarily think the chantry has the real story.

 

The Elves have lost most of what they wrote down.

 

The City had to appear Golden at one point.

 

Prior to the Magisters' attempt to enter, they believed it to be Golden. We know magisters visited the Fade like mages commonly do. That means from the exterior, they saw it as a Golden city.

 

Either it was covered by an illusion prior to the forced entry, the forced entry caused it to turn black, or a simultaneous event elsewhere caused it to become black as they entered.

 

I can concede that. However, maybe it was black on the inside but golden on the out. Whatever they did let it spread.

 

They broke the quarantine.