49 réponses à ce sujet

[Vandicus]

No argument about Tevinter. They're monsters. I'm simply saying - the ancient elves were no better.


First, no, I also maintain that it's highly likely that elves created the taint as well. Humans unleashed it, of that there is little question (some dwarven legends say they began in the Deep Roads even before the Magisters, so there is little question). But I think it's very likely elves created it and left it contained.

Second, either you're in the spoiler forum without finishing the game or you took the lazy route in the Temple of Mythal. The elves there drop quite a bombshell - humans had nothing at all to do with the fall of Arlathan. It was the elves themselves. They were warring amongst themselves so intensely that they destroyed their very civilization. All the ancient crimes (not the modern ones) that Dalish pin on humans were committed by the elves themselves.

 

I mention in my first post that I was unable to successfully ally with the elves.

 

Its not like reaching the Well through the puzzle(which I assume is a prerequisite) is presented as an objectively better option. It is presented as AN option, which some companions disagree with taking.

 

Unless there's something suggesting the Tevinters didn't have access to elven documentation of magic after the fall, there would've been some record or mention of a city being built in the Fade.

 

*EDIT

 

The documentation does not need to exist at the time of modern Thedas though, only at the time the Tevinters were attempting to enter the City. Its very clear that the Tevinter magisters did not consider the possibility of it being an elven construct, which leads one to believe that the elves did not build it.

[Vandicus]

 

 

 

 

The Elves have lost most of what they wrote down.

 

 

I can concede that. However, maybe it was black on the inside but golden on the out. Whatever they did let it spread.

 

They broke the quarantine.

 

 

The belief that it was an illusion usually is accompanied by the theory that Fen'Harel either sealed something in the City, or tricked the magisters into attempting to enter the city.

 

Given his now apparent involvement in Thedas, it does come across as quite plausible.

[Vormaerin]

I've played dwarf and am working on a Qunari right now.

 

Those conversations don't come up for them.

 

They do for the dwarves. I imagine it has something to do with how much favor you have with Solas and what questions you ask him in his dialogue.

[Rifneno]

I mention in my first post that I was unable to successfully ally with the elves.
 
Its not like reaching the Well through the puzzle(which I assume is a prerequisite) is presented as an objectively better option. It is presented as AN option, which some companions disagree with taking.
 
Unless there's something suggesting the Tevinters didn't have access to elven documentation of magic after the fall, there would've been some record or mention of a city being built in the Fade.

Ahh, sorry. Didn't remember that post.

I would suggest though, that record-keeping is... not Thedas' strong point. I mean, look at the number of things we have confirmed to be grossly mistaken about. Arlathan itself is a perfect example. Or the Primeval Thaig. That might even be better. It's a great parallel. An almost alien civilian that rewrites what we know about history. And we had no idea it even existed until we stumbled on it. If such a dwarven civilization can be completely forgotten, why not an elven one?

[Vandicus]

They do for the dwarves. I imagine it has something to do with how much favor you have with Solas and what questions you ask him in his dialogue.

 

When do the conversations occur?

 

The person who played a Dalish suggested it was in the very first few conversations, which made me think Haven. I haven't fully explored his dialogue post-Skyhold though.

[Vandicus]

Ahh, sorry. Didn't remember that post.

I would suggest though, that record-keeping is... not Thedas' strong point. I mean, look at the number of things we have confirmed to be grossly mistaken about. Arlathan itself is a perfect example. Or the Primeval Thaig. That might even be better. It's a great parallel. An almost alien civilian that rewrites what we know about history. And we had no idea it even existed until we stumbled on it. If such a dwarven civilization can be completely forgotten, why not an elven one?

 

I'd argue that it depends how far away from the time of the documentation and its potential loss we're talking about.

 

The first Blight is the reason most ancient documentation was lost. This doesn't happen until after the attempt to enter the Golden City.

 

At the time, Tevinter could use Eluvians to communicate and some other elven magic. They no doubt had access to old maps of elven cities, after all, they were occupying elven lands. They should have been aware of something with such a blatant scale as an actual city. If there were elves living in the City, it would easily have served as a place of refuge or a last redoubt.

 

If the elves built it, it would have to be a secret to the majority of their own people.

 

Centers of civilization disappear after they've been conquered/invaded/destroyed, not while they're still functioning just fine.

[Heimdall]

I don't think the Black City is the hub of the Eluvian network. I think it something separate, created by the elven gods, and inhabited by elves in Uthenera. The taint is the built up essences of the elves that were killed in uthenera, their spirits warping and corrupting over the years and finally unleashed all at once on the unsuspecting Magisters. Or, possibly a curse worked by the elven gods gone wrong. That's what I think anyway.

I tend to take a Tolkeinist approach to the elven gods and maker (In loose analogy, the Maker is Eru Illuvatar, the elven pantheon are the Valar, and the spirits are Maiar. The Old Gods being like Morgoth. Point being that elven gods, spirits, and th Old Gods are all the same type of being, the spirits being lesser in power and complexity)

[Rifneno]

I'd argue that it depends how far away from the time of the documentation and its potential loss we're talking about.
 
The first Blight is the reason most ancient documentation was lost. This doesn't happen until after the attempt to enter the Golden City.
 
At the time, Tevinter could use Eluvians to communicate and some other elven magic. They no doubt had access to old maps of elven cities, after all, they were occupying elven lands. They should have been aware of something with such a blatant scale as an actual city. If there were elves living in the City, it would easily have served as a place of refuge or a last redoubt.
 
If the elves built it, it would have to be a secret to the majority of their own people.
 
Centers of civilization disappear after they've been conquered/invaded/destroyed, not while they're still functioning just fine.

The elven wars were on a larger scale of destruction than the First Blight. The First Blight didn't absolutely destroy its civilization. It caused a lot of damage, but society survived and recovered. In the elven wars, an even greater civilization was destroyed absolutely. The First Blight was not the worst thing Thedas has ever seen. It was the worst thing we knew about until DAI.

[Vandicus]

The elven wars were on a larger scale of destruction than the First Blight. The First Blight didn't absolutely destroy its civilization. It caused a lot of damage, but society survived and recovered. In the elven wars, an even greater civilization was destroyed absolutely. The First Blight was not the worst thing Thedas has ever seen. It was the worst thing we knew about until DAI.

 

Its a different kind of fall though.

 

We might consider Darkspawn Blights to be like an invasion of barbarians, they burn, they loot, they kill, they move on.

 

Anyone intent on a more systematic kind of war doesn't burn maps.

 

Granted, its not impossible that a city could've been forgotten during an extended period of civil war, but why weren't there people living there? If its a city for mortals(meaning not spirits, not in the immortal vs mortal sense), where did they go? Why did they not attempt to contact the outside world? How come none were there when Tevinter arrived?

 

If it were something as mundane as a population center, it seems implausible that it could have escaped Tevinter notice without having been destroyed much farther in the past.

 

*EDIT

 

I'll cop to not being in a great position to argue as to the extent of the damage caused by internal strife since I haven't seen the relevant conversations yet. If it was some kind of cataclysmic magic war I could totally see them forgetting loads of stuff in a very short time frame.

[Dobyk]

The elven wars were on a larger scale of destruction than the First Blight. The First Blight didn't absolutely destroy its civilization. It caused a lot of damage, but society survived and recovered. In the elven wars, an even greater civilization was destroyed absolutely. The First Blight was not the worst thing Thedas has ever seen. It was the worst thing we knew about until DAI.

 

And I just noticed - the Chantry teachings are right about one thing at least. Elvhenan - fell because of the Pride of the higher classes ruthlessly subjugating the lower ones. Halamshiral - fell, because of elven pride and sense of superiority, unwillingness to aid humanity with the Blight, which was a big thing obviously. Had not Tevinter conquered the remaining ancient elves, perhaps there would have been an elven democracy. Had the Dales helped humanity, perhaps there would still be an elven nation. Obviously, the pointy-eared people have a problem with Pride. And now, the Dalish consider their city brethen to be nothing more than shemlen. At this point I really want to play a city elf again

[Rifneno]

Its a different kind of fall though.
 
We might consider Darkspawn Blights to be like an invasion of barbarians, they burn, they loot, they kill, they move on.
 
Anyone intent on a more systematic kind of war doesn't burn maps.
 
Granted, its not impossible that a city could've been forgotten during an extended period of civil war, but why weren't there people living there? If its a city for mortals(meaning not spirits, not in the immortal vs mortal sense), where did they go? Why did they not attempt to contact the outside world? How come none were there when Tevinter arrived?
 
If it were something as mundane as a population center, it seems implausible that it could have escaped Tevinter notice without having been destroyed much farther in the past.

Realistic or not, DAI has had many reveals where it turns out the widely accepted version of history is completely incorrect or major things are completely forgotten. If the Primeval Thaig can be, so can this.

As for what happened to the people, I suggested in the original post that the taint might have been a sort of magical weapon of mass destruction used to wipe out its populace. The elves were waging a pretty intense war on one another. It could kill the people there, and it would remain contained until some foolish magisters broke into the quarantine zone as Taleroth eloquently put it.

[Taleroth]

 

Granted, its not impossible that a city could've been forgotten during an extended period of civil war, but why weren't there people living there? If its a city for mortals(meaning not spirits, not in the immortal vs mortal sense), where did they go? Why did they not attempt to contact the outside world? How come none were there when Tevinter arrived?

Regardless of whether or not Elves lived there, it liked suffered a catastrophe before the Tevinter arrived. Whether it be a magical plague or the ~souls of the damned, whooooo~.

 

That answers the question pretty obviously. They died.

[yummysoap]

I just love how elves aren't as perfect as the Dalish believe them to be and how much misguided hatred is directed towards humans for the initial fall of their empire. I hope we get to rub this into all those smug Dalish faces in future games. Even their ideas about their own Gods is completely wrong, the fools.

[Vandicus]

Regardless of whether or not Elves lived there, it liked suffered a catastrophe before the Tevinter arrived. Whether it be a magical plague or the ~souls of the damned, whooooo~.

 

That answers the question pretty obviously. They died.

 

The biomagical/cataclysmic attack concept does require the illusion theory to be true.

 

I could see that being possible.

 

However, I would find it far more likely that the biomagical attack occurred in Thedas, and the city was then transferred into the Fade through something like the Anchor and the Breach, rather than a city being built in the Fade and consequently being attacked by biomagically. The former can be done with things we've seen to exist, the latter would require more super magic to be introduced.

[Sylentmana]

It does make some sense that the Eluvian from the Dalish origin would connect to the Black City.  I remember your friend from that origin story saying he could see a city of darkness and corruption when he looked in the Eluvian.

[Taleroth]

It does make some sense that the Eluvian from the Dalish origin would connect to the Black City.  I remember your friend from that origin story saying he could see a city of darkness and corruption when he looked in the Eluvian.

Could have also been New Jersey.

[Sylentmana]

Could have also been New Jersey.

Or Detroit. If ever there was a more appropriate name for Detroit its this.

[Rifneno]

The biomagical/cataclysmic attack concept does require the illusion theory to be true.
 
I could see that being possible.
 
However, I would find it far more likely that the biomagical attack occurred in Thedas, and the city was then transferred into the Fade through something like the Anchor and the Breach, rather than a city being built in the Fade and consequently being attacked by biomagically. The former can be done with things we've seen to exist, the latter would require more super magic to be introduced.

Why does it require more super magic than we've seen? We've seen an Eluvian hub. That alone proves that the ancient elves were building physical structures in the Fade and had them somehow isolated.

Or Detroit. If ever there was a more appropriate name for Detroit its this.

I don't know. Detriot never gang tagged a whale.

[Vandicus]

Why does it require more super magic than we've seen? We've seen an Eluvian hub. That alone proves that the ancient elves were building physical structures in the Fade and had them somehow isolated.


I don't know. Detriot never gang tagged a whale.

 

The Eluvian Hub is not in the Fade. At least not according to Morrigan. Its something similar to the Fade though.

[Rifneno]

The Eluvian Hub is not in the Fade. At least not according to Morrigan. Its something similar to the Fade though.

I'll have to replay some parts over then. I'm almost certain she told me she believes Corypheus seeks an eluvian so he can go the hub, break down a wall, and enter the Fade physically in that manner.

[Sylentmana]

I don't know. Detriot never gang tagged a whale.

 

 

The gangs gotta mark their territory. That's just life on the streets.

[Jazinto]

It's pretty much in the first conversations, if you are a Dalish that is. True, he keeps up a face, but I like to think he does say the truth when he speaks about "spells that took centuries to cast" and "crystal spirals twisting through treetops, and palaces floating among the clouds. That's what was lost". Makes you tear up, if you're an elf.

 

You don't have to be an Elf.

 

 

I've played dwarf and am working on a Qunari right now.

 

Those conversations don't come up for them.

 

 

They came up for my human mage when I investigated.

[Vandicus]

You don't have to be an Elf.
 
 





 
They came up for my human mage when I investigated.

One of the first conversations or are we talking post skyhold? I made sure I exhausted his dialogue options pre-skyhold and he talked about ruin and his dreaming but made little mention of elven society. As of skyhold I heard a few stories about dreams from ruins but no elven lore.

[Statulos]

I fully believe that Solas does think the maker is real, but that doesn't mean the maker is what others say he is. My theory is the "maker" is really a stupid powerful ancient demon or spirit. Corypheus talks about how the golden city wasn't golden when they got there. Perhaps that's because it was never really golden, it was black. They were being used to create a way for said demon/spirit to escape. Something happened, went wrong, it couldn't escape, and they were casted out as dark spawn. It would explain why the "maker" allows mages to exist. The demon/spirit needs them. It would also explain why Corypheus thinks there is no "god" to save them. He saw that the "maker" wasn't as they thought it was thus just another demon/spirit.

If the Maker indeed exists (something that Bioware I think will never confirm or deny) works more as a demiurgic deity than anything else: creates the universe and stays away from it once done.

[Earende]

It's the elves fault? Well, that explains why they all look so terrible in the Dragon Age series.