435 réponses à ce sujet

[GhoXen]

The damage calculator has no field for ability flanking bonus, nor does it account for stealth damage bonus, the flank bonus on Twin Fans, or any passive that contributes to stealth attacks (such as Ambush's armor penetration). The damage calculator is very accurate for regular non-ability attacks, but it's impossible to be accurate with many abilities' damage, since many abilities calculate damage differently and interact with passives differently.

 

For example, Longshot's damage bonus based on range is not even affected by Attack %, yet it's affected by armor pen %. The ability multiplier is just that - a straight-forward multiplier that'd only work for abilities that also calculate damage in a similar straight-forward way.

[Rynas]

Ugh, so basically, the ability descriptions in the game aren't especially helpful for figuring out exactly how much damage abilities will do.  I suppose it's too optimistic to think there might be some kind of correspondence between in-game description and actual behavior?

 

Considering how heavily a typical DW Rogue relies on abilities for overall damage, this seems to seriously complicate the problem of choosing "best in slot" for gear...

[Quixim]

Rynas, I'm getting numbers that are a bit off, but for other reasons. I plugged in all of my stats: 117 weapon power, 55% atk, etc. And from the front on a def 0 enemy (undead archers) I should be doing about 181, but I'm actually doing no less than 200 per hit, sometimes up to 225! Flanking hits are likewise a bit boosted. Either a perk I have somehow isn't getting through, or there's something up with the calculator posted. I'm not sure!

 

Happily, however, it looks like spinning blades at least DOES do additional flanking damage. The damage scales appropriately, although the ring seems bugged as it says it deals 100% of weapon damage but its numbers range a little bit lower than most basic attacks do, although that's probably luck. I am guessing that twin blades -also- does additional flank damage, as the numbers I'm getting from flanking attacks with it are monumentally higher than what's predicted on the spreadsheet, but factoring in an extra 57% flanking bonus on top of it makes it all work out. I also crit a lot more from the rear with these abilities, which means that rear-crit perk works for abilities as well!

 

Of course, since that's how everything works out, it's tricky to find the best balance to get the most damage and utility out of rogue! I can pump flanking damage since I'm likely to be behind enemies almost all the time, or I can focus more on critical chance because my crit damage is about 101 from my super high dex, and I regen stamina with every crit. On a multi-hitting move like spinning blades, with a high enough crit percentage bonus I will probably regain stamina, letting me use my abilities that much more often. I'm under the impression that runes can't crit OR deal flanking damage, although if they can then I definitely want to be cycling in the appropriate slaying rune for whatever enemy I fight. 

 

So the real question is: factoring in the loss of damage from flanking with the bonus damage from crits (Which you so graciously have a window for comparing), how much loss is 'worth it' to get the stamina regeneration?

 

On a side-note: how does Vitaar work? Is the damage bonus a % attack boost? Is that number added directly to your weapon damage? If it's a straight add to weapon damage then Qunari would be most ideal as rogues or mages due to the low damage-per-hit of staves and daggers.

 

Edit: Whoopsie! I didn't see your post while I was doing my experiments! The damage -does- seem off from what I'm seeing, I very rarely get damage as low as I'm seeing averaged on the calculator. You have to add in flanking damage automatically, but you can usually just figure out what will apply to the end anyway - for example if I'm using a ring on spinning blades they SHOULD do 100% of regular weapon damage (They don't), so you can just use the regular basic attacks to figure out how much damage per hit, and then just multiply.

[Hrishi]

Sorry if this has been asked before, but just as a clarification. Assuming it is actually possible to get 100% of a specific defense (melee, ranged or magic), does that make you immune to that form of damage? The OP says reduced damage by %, but I'm not sure if reducing by 100% actually makes the final number 0. I'm sure after a certain point it doesn't even matter, but just for the sake of understanding how these stats work, if anybody knows?

[Rynas]

Rynas, I'm getting numbers that are a bit off, but for other reasons. I plugged in all of my stats: 117 weapon power, 55% atk, etc. And from the front on a def 0 enemy (undead archers) I should be doing about 181, but I'm actually doing no less than 200 per hit, sometimes up to 225! Flanking hits are likewise a bit boosted. Either a perk I have somehow isn't getting through, or there's something up with the calculator posted. I'm not sure!

 

Well, I'll share the actual damage figures I saw.  I simply recorded the first 10 crits and 4 non-crits, sorting from lowest to highest:

 

Test 1 (Dex gear)

Attack: 64%

Crit Dmg: 168%

Flank Dmg: 25%

 

Test 2 (Flank gear)

Attack: 61%

Crit Dmg: 138%

Flank Dmg: 43%

 

All other stats were otherwise identical (except Dex, but the effects of that should be reflected in the stats above). Base weapon damage was 129.  All attacks were from Twin Fangs, flanking, 81% listed crit chance.

 

Crit results:

Test 1:

1885

1942

1981

2000

2046

2076

2076

2096

2180

2221

 

Test 2:

1809

1809

1809

1809

1809

1845

1864

1937

1992

2029

 

Result: Dex-heavy gear first-order stochastically dominates the flank-heavy gear.  Average difference ~180 damage.

 

Non-crit results:

Test 1:

1170

1194

1206

1230

 

Test 2:

1316

1354

1369

1428

 

Result: Opposite of crit result.  Average difference ~167 damage.

 

There is no way to "partially" convert my Dex gear (Masterwork Dual-Curved Blade) to Flank gear (Dual-Curved Blade), because the weapon material slots can't take Flank Dmg.  I could pump Flank with a different dagger grip, but at the cost of a huge amount of Crit Chance (from 81% to 36%, flanking).  Not at all worth it, especially considering crit is effective even when not flanking.

 

A very weird thing is how many times "1809" appears in the Test 2 results.  It makes me suspect there is some kind of floor function in the damage calculation.

 

 

Sorry if this has been asked before, but just as a clarification. Assuming it is actually possible to get 100% of a specific defense (melee, ranged or magic), does that make you immune to that form of damage? The OP says reduced damage by %, but I'm not sure if reducing by 100% actually makes the final number 0. I'm sure after a certain point it doesn't even matter, but just for the sake of understanding how these stats work, if anybody knows?

 

In theory a 100% reduction means 0 damage.  However, it looks to me like the minimum damage possible is 1.  You can test this by taking your Tier 3-armored tank into Hinterlands and picking a fight with some poor level 8 mob.  They should be hitting you for 0 damage, but I think you'll find they hit you for 1.  The same thing probably applies to the Pride Demon fight at the beginning of the game.

 

[Edit: Today I learned this editor is not WYSIWYG]

[TheInvoker]

how fast mana regenerates?

mana/s

[Quixim]

Rynas, thank you for that! That's good information to know! Quick question - when "Masterwork" increases stats by 10%, is that your primary attributes like str. and dex, or is it the attributes on the weapon?

 

With a crit damage that high, it definitely looks like increasing crit chance is the way to go, using dex to maximize crit damage. I'm pretty sure that the extra 20% crit damage from a ring wouldn't be worth the 30% bonus to high-priority skills like twin fangs or spinning blades, even if it applies to everything.

 

Remember that chart that GhoXen posted earlier about 2h weapons and getting a crit every 6 seconds? Of the 9 hits you get with spinning blades, how much crit chance would you need to be able to reliably gain or maintain stamina with it? The biggest difficulty with DW rogue is that between hidden blades, twin fangs, and spinning blades, you're really frequently low on stamina; it's bad enough that I don't even use hidden blades just because I never have any power for it. I'll probably cycle it in, now that I know that the poisoned weapons perk that gives you a 25% attack bonus doesn't work.

 

If your crit level is high enough, even though hidden blades isn't reliably a backstab, and you only get two hits out of twin fangs or shadow strike, the crits you get from those attacks and especially spinning blades (which hits a whopping nine times), and any bonuses from auto-casting hidden blades should end up giving you plentiful stamina. I think it woudl be worth it to get shadow strike just to reduce cooldown, especially on spinning blades. Of course, this goes far beyond what this topic is about, and is more to do with general theorycrafting.

[zeypher]

Masterwork critical crafting makes your weapon 10% better that is the base weapon damage, dps, the stats on it. Everything is 10% better. I personally and leaning more towards masterworking my weapons as that 10% is a lot more worthwhile since your abilities work from your weapon base which masterwork raises.

[szemyq]

I have done some different tests in the past and while doing this a major question raised in my head. How are final damage numbers calculated, or to be more precise, where does the rng in damage calculation come from? I dont see any variables at the source of damage calculation. Weapondmg, enemy armor, attack%, etc are all flat numbers. Why do final numbers from the same attack vary as they do, instead of giving the same number every time?

[LexXxich]

Masterwork critical crafting makes your weapon 10% better that is the base weapon damage, dps, the stats on it. Everything is 10% better. I personally and leaning more towards masterworking my weapons as that 10% is a lot more worthwhile since your abilities work from your weapon base which masterwork raises.

Such RNG-based mastercrafts are, AFAIK, suffering from inability to savescum them. As in, the probability of critical success is calculated at the end of previous crafting, and the strongest such components have 40% chance. Since it's a percentage increase, best results will be had from highest base values, but materials for those values are limited in number in-game, like Dragon Bone.

[zeypher]

Since your previous craft determines them it is simple you save scum make a shitty masterwork then try your daggers.

[LexXxich]

Does it really "determines" them? It's not like you get a cause/effect like "this mastercraft failed so next one is definitely will succeed". The game might know ahead, but the player has no way of knowing, and just have to try until it works (or materials run out), and can't even reload and try again.

[Quixim]

Does the 10% stat bonus from mastercraft work on hilts and pommels and stuff too, or is it just the base weapon itself? I don't have any masterwork weapons on hand to test it out with

[Rynas]

Remember that chart that GhoXen posted earlier about 2h weapons and getting a crit every 6 seconds? Of the 9 hits you get with spinning blades, how much crit chance would you need to be able to reliably gain or maintain stamina with it? The biggest difficulty with DW rogue is that between hidden blades, twin fangs, and spinning blades, you're really frequently low on stamina; it's bad enough that I don't even use hidden blades just because I never have any power for it. I'll probably cycle it in, now that I know that the poisoned weapons perk that gives you a 25% attack bonus doesn't work.

 

If your crit level is high enough, even though hidden blades isn't reliably a backstab, and you only get two hits out of twin fangs or shadow strike, the crits you get from those attacks and especially spinning blades (which hits a whopping nine times), and any bonuses from auto-casting hidden blades should end up giving you plentiful stamina. I think it woudl be worth it to get shadow strike just to reduce cooldown, especially on spinning blades. Of course, this goes far beyond what this topic is about, and is more to do with general theorycrafting.

 

Spinning Blades is super fun when it works, but I have not had much success with it.  The main problems I have are that it's expensive, doesn't do much damage (75% damage and every hit is subject to armor), and it takes so long that it gets interrupted way too often.  In fact, it seems if the first hit is "blocked," the entire thing fails and you've just spent 65 stamina on nothing.  I only have one "free" slot on my bar with my current build, so right now it's Shadow Strike instead of Spinning Blades.  It's cheaper, hits harder from stealth, and is a detonator.  (If they ever fix Deathblow, I'd probably go for that instead.)

[Rynas]

Masterwork critical crafting makes your weapon 10% better that is the base weapon damage, dps, the stats on it. Everything is 10% better. I personally and leaning more towards masterworking my weapons as that 10% is a lot more worthwhile since your abilities work from your weapon base which masterwork raises.

 

Is it worth giving up other masterworks, though?  Like 10% Hidden Blades or +7.5% damage per enemy within 8 meters...?

[Quixim]

I find a lot of difficulty with shadow strike! I moved towards it way earlier, but the damage it did (600%) was not even close to comparable to twin fangs' damage, whereas spinning blades usually works out really well, especially since multiple hits can proc multiple crits (for stamina regen) and also proc things like the special hidden blades attack. I have a ring of hidden blades on my inquisitor and each hit supposedly does 100% weapon damage, which for all those multi-hits is probably the best bang for your buck, adding 225% damage, as opposed to the 122% I get on twin fangs! A hidden blades ring would, if it works, add an extra 600% weapon damage, giving you a 99% addition for each of the six hits. I can't honestly imagine any ring being more effective than that, aside from one that applies -before- armor on high armor enemies. Shadow strike, even with the ring, does 798% weapon damage, twin fangs with the ring hits twice for a total of 1122% weapon damage, and spinning blades hits for 900% weapon damage. Assuming hidden blades works as well as it's supposed to, it would hit for 2400% weapon damage (300 per hit, plus 100 per hit for a ring for max upgrade). Shadow strike's biggest bonuses are being a detonator, knocking down enemies, and reducing cooldown for your big ticket attacks.

[konfeta]

Everything is 10% better. I personally and leaning more towards masterworking my weapons as that 10% is a lot more worthwhile since your abilities work from your weapon base which masterwork raises.

Well, it depends on whenever you can ignore the downsides stuff like:

 

+30% damage bonus if not being hit for 5 seconds

30% damage bonus, 300% damage from all sources

 

or whenever the procs average weapon damage % added is high enough to be a 10%+ overall damage boost (for example, Hidden Blades with attacks like Energy Barrage, where its pretty much expected to proc every Barrage cast, adds 500% weapon damage to a 792% weapon damage attack, which is a very substantial increase). Admittedly the proc thing loses appeal for AoE attacks; and won't really be an effective boost on builds that do fewer higher damaging attacks.

[GhoXen]

Is it worth giving up other masterworks, though?  Like 10% Hidden Blades or +7.5% damage per enemy within 8 meters...?

 

Since Masterwork does not stack, critical crafting is usually the best choice when it's on a weapon. Everything scales off from weapon damage, so a straight 10% bonus to weapon damage is pretty godly.

 

The armor slot on the other hand will benefit more from regular mastercrafts.

[zeypher]

Since Masterwork does not stack, critical crafting is usually the best choice when it's on a weapon. Everything scales off from weapon damage, so a straight 10% bonus to weapon damage is pretty godly.

 

The armor slot on the other hand will benefit more from regular mastercrafts.

Yup i was leaning this way as well. Specially for armour i love guard on hit as that provides more survivability that just critical crafting my armour. For weapons after trying out mulitple combinations i favour critical crafting on them.

[Quixim]

Since Masterwork does not stack, critical crafting is usually the best choice when it's on a weapon. Everything scales off from weapon damage, so a straight 10% bonus to weapon damage is pretty godly.

 

The armor slot on the other hand will benefit more from regular mastercrafts.

That's what I was thinking too! If it works for the utility or offence bonuses that's great, and if it also works for things like hilts and pommels that's AMAZING. It would probably still be useful on lower-damage weapons like daggers on staves, but would be exceptional on greatswords.

 

Out of curiosity, is the damage bonus from Vitaar just a straight addition to the weapon attack? If I have a 200 damage per hit greatsword or a 117 damage per hit dagger, will a "12 damage" vitaar add twelve damage to both? And if so, does that show up BEFORE an attack bonus?

[Rynas]

Since Masterwork does not stack, critical crafting is usually the best choice when it's on a weapon. Everything scales off from weapon damage, so a straight 10% bonus to weapon damage is pretty godly.

 

The armor slot on the other hand will benefit more from regular mastercrafts.

 

Yes 10% to base weapon damage sounds very tempting, but don't you need that on both weapons for max effect?

 

My current setup is armor with +Guard on hit, one weapon with 10% Hidden Blades, the other with +7.5% damage per enemy within 8 meters.  So in THEORY (wouldn't surprise me at all if the +7.5% is borked somehow, but taking it at face value for now), vs. 1 enemy I would miss out on 2.5% damage (or actually a little more than that, considering stat bonuses) while gaining Hidden Blades proc and Guard on hit.  Vs. 2 enemies I should be getting more than 10% damage AND the other two bonuses.  That seems like a good deal?

[Amnar]

/edit i just realized i made a huge error making everything i just wrote down invalid

 

context: did simplified calculation for critical crafting, pressed save changes, took a smoke, realized my error

to compensate for this now useless post i'll do some example calculations tomorrow. pretty sure they'll come up with roughly the same conclusion my failed first attempt showed, without the need for troll-science

[GhoXen]

Yes 10% to base weapon damage sounds very tempting, but don't you need that on both weapons for max effect?

 

My current setup is armor with +Guard on hit, one weapon with 10% Hidden Blades, the other with +7.5% damage per enemy within 8 meters.  So in THEORY (wouldn't surprise me at all if the +7.5% is borked somehow, but taking it at face value for now), vs. 1 enemy I would miss out on 2.5% damage (or actually a little more than that, considering stat bonuses) while gaining Hidden Blades proc and Guard on hit.  Vs. 2 enemies I should be getting more than 10% damage AND the other two bonuses.  That seems like a good deal?

 

A valid assessment for dagger rogues, the only class in game that uses two weapons for damage. However, every other class and build in game would benefit more from a critically crafted main weapon. Except perhaps a tank, if damage is to be ignored entirely.

 

Hidden Blade is indeed the most potent mastercraft on a fast hitting weapon, since it has a short duration and may retrigger very quickly without losing damage; that nature offsets its downside of dealing physical damage. However, some alternatives to consider are the Walking Bomb and Shield Bash mastercrafts.

 

Walking Bomb deals elemental damage which bypass armor entirely, and has the potential to deal significantly more damage than Hidden Blade (4 ticks of DoT at 100% WD, then AoE explosion for 100% WD), but it doesn't stack with itself and damage would be lost if it's procced before the explosion of the first proc. Shield Bash (tier 3 for 10% chance) on the other hand also deals physical damage, but rather than multiple weak hits, it's one full-fledged Shield Bash at 300% WD, with bonus damage to guard and knockdown. It'll be weaker against enemies with no/low armor, but stronger against enemies with armor or Guard compared to Hidden Blade. The knockdown will also allow a rogue to trigger cross-class combo (Rupture) all by himself.

[konfeta]

Hidden Blade is indeed the most potent mastercraft on a fast hitting weapon, since it has a short duration and may retrigger very quickly without losing damage; that nature offsets its downside of dealing physical damage.

It actually inherits the weapon element. So when using it with staves, it will do that staff's elemental damage.

[Quixim]

It actually inherits the weapon element. So when using it with staves, it will do that staff's elemental damage.

That would make a ton of sense, as it just says "additional hits", and doesn't specify what percentage like other skills do.

 

...That would ALSO explaint eh damage boost archer rogues get over DW rogues, in that their Hidden Blades (both the skill and the mastercraft) both work off their weapon damage, which for a bow is way higher than it would be for a dagger. Unlike 2h weapons or something, bows get that excellent 12-hit move that is almost guaranteed to proc a hidden blades on detonation. It's all making sense now!

 

I've been trying to figure out how this guy did this

 

Looks like Mark of the Rift has a slowing effect? But every hit he makes is a crit, I didn't even know it was possible to get a crit chance that high. On top of that, his stealth regenerates a few times, very very quickly, but he can't be dealing killing blows. I don't know how he manages to do that.