435 réponses à ce sujet

[GhoXen]

I've tested melee defense %, and the result was somewhat expected. I always knew that rumor about melee defense % applying before armor sounded unlikely, since if that's the case most attacks would hit for only 1 damage after reaching some easy melee defense % thresholds.

 

It seems that melee defense % applies after armor. In the meantime, I'm assuming that the same formula would apply for other forms of defense %. The one thing I haven't tested is how magic and elemental defense % interact with each other. However, it's of lower priority since that information is not quite material in deciding between stats.

 

Working on crit-related tests now.

[octavian1127]

Willpower vs base stat is relative to your foe. Willpower is generally better unless your for uses guard/barrier.

[zeypher]

Thanks for confirming that bleed is broken. I suspected as much but you have provided conclusive evidence.

[gay_wardens]

WTF... cunning is ranged defense and willpower is magic defense now? So confusing.

[gay_wardens]

Bleed on Being Hit %

• This stat does not work. Will test again when it's patched.

 

Oh my god they have ruined dragon age with the new combat... ugh! So angry about this.

[GhoXen]

The primary bulk of the guide is now complete!

[DivineAura]

Do Enhanced Barrier Ring's 30% ability duration bonus slows down the decay over time or has no effect?

[Saboteur-6]

So what does this translate too in picking up skill tree passives for builds? Should the emphasis be on Willpower over something like Strength?

[Scoutyo]

Do Enhanced Barrier Ring's 30% ability duration bonus slows down the decay over time or has no effect?

I tested this recently. The description is wrong. The ring actually reduces Barrier's cooldown by 30%.

[Sevitan7]

May I ask where you found this:

 

Weapon * (1 + Attk%) - Armor

 

As well as how you found the mechanics of armor penetration and figured out melee defense applies after armor? I mean defense reduction applying after armor seems correct but how did you get the formulas for the first two.

 

Here's a list of, mostly bugs, some things I found out (all on PC):

 

1) Abilities that increase armor do not work on front armor: It means what you think, they do nothing when you are being hit from the front and only work while being hit in the back. This makes most of these abilities/passives (Champion passive, Horn of Valor, Warcry+ and Trust the Steel included) currently useless. Horn of Valor also improves armor rating by 50% rather than 15% for 10 seconds, but still not the front rating.

2) Enemies do not get flanking bonus: Or at least most don't or I haven't found any. Perhaps specific ones do, but Bear mauls the Wolves doesn't seem to do anything. Nevermind, maybe do after-all but the RNG mislead me.

3)Guard is 25% of max hp: I think this is common knowledge but I read somewhere that it does not stack with +HP items. It does stack with the +200 HP belt for sure though at least.

4)25% Max Guard Vanguard Passive does not work: Instead it adds a bit to armor rating (but not front armor due to bug 1)
5)25% max Guard Champion Passive works, but bonus seems closer to 20% than 25%
6)Turn the Blade Works without shield: Just wanted to make sure, makes it pretty much the best warrior passive.

[GhoXen]

May I ask where you found this:

 

Weapon * (1 + Attk%) - Armor

 

As well as how you found the mechanics of armor penetration and figured out melee defense applies after armor? I mean defense reduction applying after armor seems correct but how did you get the formulas for the first two.

 

Here's a list of, mostly bugs, some things I found out (all on PC):

 

1) Abilities that increase armor do not work on front armor: It means what you think, they do nothing when you are being hit from the front and only work while being hit in the back. This makes most of these abilities/passives (Champion passive, Horn of Valor, Warcry+ and Trust the Steel included) currently useless. Horn of Valor also improves armor rating by 50% rather than 15% for 10 seconds, but still not the front rating.

2) Enemies do not get flanking bonus: Or at least most don't or I haven't found any. Perhaps specific ones do, but Bear mauls the Wolves doesn't seem to do anything. Nevermind, maybe do after-all but the RNG mislead me.

3)Guard is 25% of max hp: I think this is common knowledge but I read somewhere that it does not stack with +HP items. It does stack with the +200 HP belt for sure though at least.

4)25% Max Guard Vanguard Passive does not work: Instead it adds a bit to armor rating (but not front armor due to bug 1)
5)25% max Guard Champion Passive works, but bonus seems closer to 20% than 25%
6)Turn the Blade Works without shield: Just wanted to make sure, makes it pretty much the best warrior passive.

 

Attk% applying before armor was observed in Attack Test 3. AP reduces the damage reduction of armor, so it's applied together with armor rather than before or after it. Melee defense applying after armor is straight forward and observed in melee defense tests 1 and 2.

 

Those ability bugs are rather concerning. =/ I'd want to categorise them all in a thread somewhere, but this thread will probably dedicate only to attributes found on equipment, so that people can decide what to wear/craft with more information.

[TK8]

Attk% applying before armor was observed in Attack Test 3. AP reduces the damage reduction of armor, so it's applied together with armor rather than before or after it. Melee defense applying after armor is straight forward and observed in melee defense tests 1 and 2.

 

Those ability bugs are rather concerning. =/ I'd want to categorise them all in a thread somewhere, but this thread will probably dedicate only to attributes found on equipment, so that people can decide what to wear/craft with more information.

 

Maybe make a new thread with all the bugged skills?

[-PenguinFetish-]

Well ****. Just got a superb ring of bleeding (10%). Thanks bioware for more perks which do nothing whatsoever. I thought we had moved past this. 

[TK8]

Well ****. Just got a superb ring of bleeding (10%). Thanks bioware for more perks which do nothing whatsoever. I thought we had moved past this. 

 

Isnt't superb ring of bleeding on-hit, and not on being hit? unless that is also bugged.

[Sevitan7]

Attk% applying before armor was observed in Attack Test 3. AP reduces the damage reduction of armor, so it's applied together with armor rather than before or after it. Melee defense applying after armor is straight forward and observed in melee defense tests 1 and 2.

 

Welp, didn't even noticed you updated posts 2 and 3, will take a look now.

[GhoXen]

Isnt't superb ring of bleeding on-hit, and not on being hit? unless that is also bugged.

 

Both are bugged. It seems the "Bleed" effect in general does not work.

 

Stagger on Hit is pretty fun on 2H warrior. However, since you have to sacrifice a lot of  Attack %, your warrior practically turns into a melee support. Expect lower damage from the 2H warrior, but a lot more cross class combos from stuns, especially from AI.

 

Stagger on being Hit on the other hand most likely will only work on lower difficulties. You sacrifice melee defense % for it, so a tank  with high stagger on being hit will die very easily on Nightmare.

[omnitremere]

Dude.  This thread is awesome.  You're awesome.  I can't say how much I appreciate the information.  I had long suspected some of my strategies weren't effective and this proves it.  Thanks for taking the time to do this.

[Adhin]

@GhoXen: I immediately assumed that as well however some basic math on Cass taking 1 dmg from attacks, while my main warrior who has 10-20 armor 'more' (from the front, even more from the back on her end). Well, She takes less dmg (like 1 dmg) from the front, while I take a good 40. Now, if Defense truly comes after Armor then it's likely the passives come before, as that's the only explanation I can come up with for how that makes any damn sense.

 

For example, enemy throws out around 450-ish dmg (to barriers). I take about 40, she takes 1. I have 25 Melee Defense, she has 16. I have 199 armor rating (from the front), she has 187. I have more 'armor' armor, but that seems to be back armor not front and doesn't supersede front armor which.. I dunno, **** seems broken. Front should always max or be higher you know? Then again i coulda sworn I had War Cry upgrade work on all directions before even when the stat sheet didn't show front armor going up. Then I've also seen less dmg from behind then the front so... I'm just at a loss on that one.

 

Anyway, the only thing besides that, that's different between us is her 20% DR from the front passive. I haven't gotten that far in SnB on my main to get it yet. Best I can figure is the passive is cutting into the dmg ahead before Armor then Defense kicks in. Otherwise there's no way I can throw the math around to make that make any sense at all. Granted, that's not really the base attributes but I would imagine this is where most people assume Armor comes in last. It's why I assumed armor was counted last but I could see it being passive -> armor -> defense.

[Jgizle]

Crit chance and crit damage are definitely the way to go for any class that utilizes crits (IE rogue assassins or archer assassins).

 

My Bow Assassin with 52% crit chance and 90% crit damage does over 7k damage with max range Long Shot. This damage can be multiplied to over 15k over the next few seconds when you place a mark on a target (which also can crit when it goes off). Cunning does not give a static 0.5% crit chance per point the entire time. It increases over time because my Rogue has only 58 cunning but has 52% crit chance. Your assessment indicates that I should have 29% crit chance at 58 cunning.

 

8% crit chance comes form my helm which drops my total crit chance from cunning only to  44%. Still much higher than the presumed 29%. Likewise any attack coming out of stealth is automatically a critical hit for an assassin. With the ability to get stealth for free upon killing anything along with having stealth itself one can have crits almost every single hit. When my skills are down almost every single hit is a crit and it helps me kill dragons in nightmare mode in as little as 5-6 minutes without over powered knight-enchanter Vivienne. 

 

 

[GhoXen]

@GhoXen: I immediately assumed that as well however some basic math on Cass taking 1 dmg from attacks, while my main warrior who has 10-20 armor 'more' (from the front, even more from the back on her end). Well, She takes less dmg (like 1 dmg) from the front, while I take a good 40. Now, if Defense truly comes after Armor then it's likely the passives come before, as that's the only explanation I can come up with for how that makes any damn sense.

 

For example, enemy throws out around 450-ish dmg (to barriers). I take about 40, she takes 1. I have 25 Melee Defense, she has 16. I have 199 armor rating (from the front), she has 187. I have more 'armor' armor, but that seems to be back armor not front and doesn't supersede front armor which.. I dunno, **** seems broken. Front should always max or be higher you know? Then again i coulda sworn I had War Cry upgrade work on all directions before even when the stat sheet didn't show front armor going up. Then I've also seen less dmg from behind then the front so... I'm just at a loss on that one.

 

Anyway, the only thing besides that, that's different between us is her 20% DR from the front passive. I haven't gotten that far in SnB on my main to get it yet. Best I can figure is the passive is cutting into the dmg ahead before Armor then Defense kicks in. Otherwise there's no way I can throw the math around to make that make any sense at all. Granted, that's not really the base attributes but I would imagine this is where most people assume Armor comes in last. It's why I assumed armor was counted last but I could see it being passive -> armor -> defense.

 

Is she using a shield? Because if she is, then the shield gives her 30% front defense.

[GhoXen]

Crit chance and crit damage are definitely the way to go for any class that utilizes crits (IE rogue assassins or archer assassins).

 

My Bow Assassin with 52% crit chance and 90% crit damage does over 7k damage with max range Long Shot. This damage can be multiplied to over 15k over the next few seconds when you place a mark on a target (which also can crit when it goes off). Cunning does not give a static 0.5% crit chance per point the entire time. It increases over time because my Rogue has only 58 cunning but has 52% crit chance. Your assessment indicates that I should have 29% crit chance at 58 cunning.

 

8% crit chance comes form my helm which drops my total crit chance from cunning only to  44%. Still much higher than the presumed 29%. Likewise any attack coming out of stealth is automatically a critical hit for an assassin. With the ability to get stealth for free upon killing anything along with having stealth itself one can have crits almost every single hit. When my skills are down almost every single hit is a crit and it helps me kill dragons in nightmare mode in as little as 5-6 minutes without over powered knight-enchanter Vivienne.

 

You did not account for base crit %, crit % from abilities and party-wide abilities. Respec your character, remove all followers, stack 58 cunning and no crit % and you will get only 34% crit.

 

You do not theorycraft using a single uncontrolled and arbitrary subjective observation. You deal in hard math.

[Adhin]

Yeah shes using a shield, so you think the 30% Front Defense is taken into account before Armor and not the 20% passive? If its taken into account 'after' Armor, if all of it is taken into account after armor she would be taking more then 1 dmg. If all the % defenses are additive (what would result in the highest %) she would have 66% (from 20% passive, 16% melee and 30% on shield). 450 - her 187... if it's doubled as you say would result in 76 dmg for defense to eat away at. You would need 98% total to see a single dmg point (and then it might flux between 1 and 2). 66% would still result in 24-ish dmg, not 1.

 

Considering shields say 'defense'. I would imagine it's adding a ghost +30 defense to Melee, Ranged and Magic but, as you say, that would come after. That sounds like the 20% from the front passive comes before armor still at that point. If it does it brings that 450-ish dmg down to about 360, which is a good 14 less then x2 her front armor. Which would result in 0 dmg taken, or well, 1 dmg since you can't take 0.

 

Just something for you to test out. I already have and thats what conclusion I've come too. I'll keep trying to see if that's whats happening but so far it's what makes the most sense.

[GhoXen]

Yeah shes using a shield, so you think the 30% Front Defense is taken into account before Armor and not the 20% passive? If its taken into account 'after' Armor, if all of it is taken into account after armor she would be taking more then 1 dmg. If all the % defenses are additive (what would result in the highest %) she would have 66% (from 20% passive, 16% melee and 30% on shield). 450 - her 187... if it's doubled as you say would result in 76 dmg for defense to eat away at. You would need 98% total to see a single dmg point (and then it might flux between 1 and 2). 66% would still result in 24-ish dmg, not 1.

 

Considering shields say 'defense'. I would imagine it's adding a ghost +30 defense to Melee, Ranged and Magic but, as you say, that would come after. That sounds like the 20% from the front passive comes before armor still at that point. If it does it brings that 450-ish dmg down to about 360, which is a good 14 less then x2 her front armor. Which would result in 0 dmg taken, or well, 1 dmg since you can't take 0.

 

Just something for you to test out. I already have and thats what conclusion I've come too. I'll keep trying to see if that's whats happening but so far it's what makes the most sense.

 

I thought your main wasn't using a shield and didn't do a full calculation. I had a more careful look at the info you've given, and it seems your assessment on how Turn the Blade works is correct.

 

If the 450 hit is first lowered to 360 by that passive ability, then she has plenty of room to take only 1 damage. Also, 1 damage is the minimum amount of damage you can take per hit. Even if you have so much armor that the damage should be reduced into the negatives, you will still take 1 damage.

 

It's notable that Turn the Blade does not increase defense, instead the precise wording is "damage resistance". We already see many cases of abilities working in unexpected ways, e.g Longshot % Attack %. Heck, some abilities probably can have entire threads dedicated to them.

 

ADD: Also someone mentioned that armor % buffs do not apply to front armor due to bug. =(

[Adhin]

Yeah, on top of War Cry wording leading to incorrect armor boost, and it not effecting front armor atm is a double let down. It's worded identical to Armor% with guard on. One gives 20%, one is 200%. One would 'assume' the 200% is x3 armor (that is, adding 200%) and 20% isn't actually x0.2 your current armor as that would be a massive penalty. War Cry, does in fact, only add 100%, so it's x2. Which is still a balls ton of armor so no real complaints but the wording is just misleading, especially when compared to other things that boost armor.

 

Sadly in this games current state it only helps against backstabbers lol. Ahh well, hopefully a patch comes sooner rather then later.

 

-edit-

I should point out im not 100% sure about why she'll take 1 dmg. It's just the only thing I can think of atm. I need to do some actual real testing. But I'm playing on some other stuff atm. Wont be for awhile, why I figured I'd mention it in case someone wanted to go see if that passive works like that or not.

[RamonNZ]

Thanks for this post and your work.

 

Trying to figure out what stats did was pretty confusing, and you help out with information like don't use 2 +30 ability rings, and barrier ring actually reducing the cooldown (that's pretty epic).

 

Also it sounds like like armor > all other damage reduction, so that helps choosing between armor/shield/upgrade with a higher number of damage reduction (eg melee defense) or going for something with higher armor rating.

 

Edit: Actually I'd be interested if you could do a damage mitigation ranking for items like you've done with the DPS ranking stats. Eg 1 Armor > 1 Constitution > +1 Guard on hit > +1 Life heal on hit > (1 Barrier) > 1% Defense. Although Barrier doesn't go into armor that would be an interesting comparison too