435 réponses à ce sujet

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

GhoXen: A dw rogue that already has decent crit chance and armor pen from other sources, should in according to your findings stack Attack%, Dex and crit damage?

[Magma_Axis]

Well, this is not Dark Souls so its kind of inevitable. Luckily the game offers other challenges than beating it with min/maxed party for those who feel the game difficulty is too easy. 

Dont worry, most people will be satisfied with the difficulty of the game. Only min-maxer in game forum that felt that it's too easy.,

 

In DAO, most mid to end game encounter finish within seconds

DA2 is still the best in this regardmore  with more balanced encounter, skills and equipment

[WillieStyle]

Prior to release, when folks were terrified of the no healing thing, I predicted that once the min/max community theorycrafted the game, folks would start complaining about how easy it is.  Well it only took two weeks.  Theorycrafting makes the game easier.  That's the point.  And the more complex the gameplay and crafting, the more likely the community is to find synergies the devs never anticipated.  Rather than complain, use the added knowledge to do interesting and challenging things.  

 

I, for one, plan on rolling a 2H Reaver inquisitor on my next play through, using him as my sole tank while rarely using tactical view. My hope is that by min/maxing guard, armor, and resists, I can ride the edge of maximizing Dragon Rage dps while still tanking everything.  Block and slash what I can, combat roll away from the rest. It'll be interesting to see what the optimal mixture of defensive and offensive skills will be for such a character.

[Magma_Axis]

Prior to release, when folks were terrified of the no healing thing, I predicted that once the min/max community theorycrafted the game, folks would start complaining about how easy it is.  Well it only took two weeks.  Theorycrafting makes the game easier.  That's the point.  And the more complex the gameplay and crafting, the more likely the community is to find synergies the devs never anticipated.  Rather than complain, use the added knowledge to do interesting and challenging things.  

 

I, for one, plan on rolling a 2H Reaver inquisitor on my next play through, using him as my sole tank while rarely using tactical view. My hope is that by min/maxing guard, armor, and resists, I can ride the edge of maximizing Dragon Rage dps while still tanking everything.  Block and slash what I can, combat roll away from the rest. It'll be interesting to see what the optimal mixture of defensive and offensive skills will be for such a character.

So playing it like action game then, with normal attack, special attack and evasion ?

Sounds interesting

[GhoXen]

I have Turn the Blade and Turn the Bolt (works on elemental ranged attacks as well) on all my 2H warrior DPS. They are almost as durable (1 dmg/hit) as my tank, as long as the enemy is Weakened (-30% base damage) by a Rift Mage. Without the Weaken, they are a bit more squishy, while my tank would still only take 1 dmg/hit.

 

ADD: Also, I've been playing DAI as an action game since Day 2, after I realised how clunky tactical view is. Here are some bindings I made for action mode: http://forum.bioware...ntrols-fix-ahk/
Game should play like Dark Souls as a result. It's also how I managed to get my undergeared and unmin-maxed tank through Nightmare thus far, thanks to precise blocks and dodges.

[knownastherat]

This post on no healing policy gives some insight how encounters/difficulty are designed and while it addressed some issues, limitation on HP/damage imposed by such system coupled with synergies and super-abilities brought us here.

 

As ​A Beginner's Guide To All Things Dragon Age puts it:

 

 

Okay. So… they're mages. They use magic, carry staves, that sort of thing, right?

 

Yeah, though it's a little more complicated than that. In Thedas, mages are super powerful, but they can't always control their own power. They're actually sort of like mutants in X-Men, in that they're born with the gift for magic, and it's identified early on. But because people are terrified of mages, they're kept under lock and key and are never truly free for their entire lives.

 

 

 

http://kotaku.com/a-...-age-1658487212

 

No worries you  are X-Man.

[Magma_Axis]

I have Turn the Blade and Turn the Bolt (works on elemental ranged attacks as well) on all my 2H warrior DPS. They are almost as durable (1 dmg/hit) as my tank, as long as the enemy is Weakened (-30% base damage) by a Rift Mage. Without the Weaken, they are a bit more squishy, while my tank would still only take 1 dmg/hit.

 

ADD: Also, I've been playing DAI as an action game since Day 2, after I realised how clunky tactical view is. Here are some bindings I made for action mode: http://forum.bioware...ntrols-fix-ahk/
Game should play like Dark Souls as a result. It's also how I managed to get my undergeared and unmin-maxed tank through Nightmare thus far, thanks to precise blocks and dodges.

You should make a guide (preferably in reddit) with title : How to make enemies do 1 damage in Nightmare

If it popular enough, and getting covered by Kotaku,  maybe Bioware will make some changes

[knownastherat]

That seems to be the point. What is the difference between taking (1) damage and (infinite) healing? 

[zeypher]

Hmm xen a question just regarding masterwork. Hidden blades or chain lightning i cannot decide between those two.

[AlphaMagnum]

Related to the above -- do multiple instances of third-tier Hidden Blades (10% ctc with 5 extra hits) stack? Or should I use one second-tier (4 hits) and one third-tier (5 hits) for maximum value?

I'm thinking of going 2x Hidden Blades and 1x Guard on Hit for my Dual Dagger Tempest.

[hugin7]

Has anyone noticed anything with will power and stamina/mana regen?  There has to be a way to regen faster beyond those few skills.

 

Regen of +15 Stamina (Mastercraft)

Whether Stamina regen is affected by a higher max stamina may be the deciding factor between higher max stamina, or reduced ability cost.

Setup 1: 100 stamina

Setup 2: 115 stamina

Test: deplete stamina and record the time taken to regen to full.

 

Results:

In both setups, it took 25 seconds to regen from 0% to 100% stamina.

 

I've done research on stamina/mana regen and my findings are different from the 4 stam/sec cited above.  Can you please retest and confirm?

For mages, base mana regen is about 5.8 mana/sec.  Rogues regenerate exactly 4 stam/sec.  However, I saw quirky results with lvl 1 Cassandra:

After hitting an enemy with Payback Strike, 35 stamina is recovered in 10.6 sec, which is 3.3 stam/sec.  This is close to what I experienced with rogues.  However, when I allowed all stamina to drain via Shield Wall, 100 stamina was recovered in... 10.6 sec (9.4 stam/sec).  It appears that warrior's stamina regen might be percentage-based, rather than absolute.  In other words, Stam Regen = 9.4% missing stam/sec.

• Edit: I just ran another trial identical to the one directly above, and this time, got 4 stam/sec.  I'm not sure why I keep getting erratic results with stam regen despite keeping all variables constant.  Perhaps the game engine is stuttering.

One thing I found disturbing during my warrior test is that stamina regen didn't seem uniform - every time Cass got hit, the stamina bar spiked, suggesting a hidden mechanic that grants stamina on getting hit.  However, there is nothing in Cass' talents or gear that explains this behavior.

More details on my testing methodology and regeneration are found here:

http://www.reddit.co...nd_bugs_galore/

I also recently found that, contrary to many players' reports, Rejuvenating Barrier does in fact increase mana regen by 35%.  Furthermore, it stacks multiplicatively with Winter Stillness.  I'm interested in both abilities' interaction with KE's Combat Clarity, though I'm not currently in position to test this.
 

[Sevitan7]

Game should play like Dark Souls as a result. It's also how I managed to get my undergeared and unmin-maxed tank through Nightmare thus far, thanks to precise blocks and dodges.

 

I did the same, and the game doesn't feel like an action rpg to me. The effective mechanics just aren't there for 1 character, much less a party of 4. It sort of works against regular enemies, and it is pretty fun then, but against bosses/cc immune enemies it's just feels like a poorly balanced mmo slog. Until you upgrade your gear, and then you can just auto-attack through everything without a care.

[Ekstrj]

So I found a discrepancy with your findings, GhoXen, in terms of Armor Penetration. This is based only on preliminary testing, but the numbers are disagreeing with your findings.
 
I took my level 19 Rogue, respecced him into only the Stealth and Lost in the Shadows abilities (to be able to drop out of combat quickly during tests).
 
I created two nearly identical bows and two pairs of nearly identical single-target Daggers, and I went against a Level 19 Bronto in the Emerald Graves (Near all of the landmarks in the NE). 
 
Here are my Stats and Findings - Unless I'm missing something - this suggests that 2% Armor Pen is worth far more than 1% Attack for enemies with a fair amount of armor which is opposite of what you stated in your 2nd post. 

 

 

Animal: Bronto Level 19 (88 Armor) With Guard

Bronto Level 19 (88 Armor) No Guard (just to see if Guard makes a difference in the findings - it doesn't)

 

Rogue (Bow)

54 Attack %

21 Armor Penetration %

152 Weapon Damage

Non-crit Damage per hit to Bronto with Guard: 124-135  

 

Rogue (Bow)

22 Attack %

84 Armor Penetration %

152 Weapon Damage

Non-crit Damage per hit to Bronto with Guard: 162-179

                 

 

Rogue (Dagger DW)

38 Attack %

0 Armor Penetration %

124 Weapon Damage Main-hand 124 Weapon Damage Off-hand  

Non-crit Damage per hit to Bronto with Guard: 44-55

Non-crit Damage per hit to Bronto without Guard: 45-55 

 

Rogue (Dagger DW)

4 Attack %

54 Armor Penetration %

124 Weapon Damage Main-hand 124 Weapon Damage Off-hand   

 

Non-crit Damage per hit to Bronto with Guard: 82-90

Non-crit Damage per hit to Bronto without Guard: 82-92

 

Please let me know what I'm missing, since these findings seem to completely contradict yours.

 

As you can see, with the bows I'm modifying Attack % by +- 32 and Armor Penetration % by +- 63 (essentially a 1:2 comparison), yet I'm seeing nearly a 30% increase in damage per hit when favoring Armor Penetration.

 

With Daggers, I'm modifying Attack % by +-34 and Armor Penetration % by +-54 (Far less than a 1:2 comparison), yet I'm seeing nearly double the damage per hit when favoring Armor Penetration.

[Scoutyo]

For mages, base mana regen is about 5.8 mana/sec. Rogues regenerate exactly 3 stam/sec. However, I saw quirky results with lvl 1 Cassandra:

After hitting an enemy with Payback Strike, 35 stamina is recovered in 10.6 sec, which is 3.3 stam/sec. This is close to what I experienced with rogues. However, when I allowed all stamina to drain via Shield Wall, 100 stamina was recovered in... 10.6 sec (9.4 stam/sec). It appears that warrior's stamina regen might be percentage-based, rather than absolute. In other words, Stam Regen = 9.4% missing stam/sec.

• Edit: I just ran another trial identical to the one directly above, and this time, got 4 stam/sec. I'm not sure why I keep getting erratic results with stam regen despite keeping all variables constant. Perhaps the game engine is stuttering.

One thing I found disturbing during my warrior test is that stamina regen didn't seem uniform - every time Cass got hit, the stamina bar spiked, suggesting a hidden mechanic that grants stamina on getting hit. However, there is nothing in Cass' talents or gear that explains this behavior.

I can't vouch for this personally, but one of the devs mentioned in a pre-launch stream that both warriors and rogues regen stamina every time they hit an enemy (not sure if this only applies to basic attacks). Perhaps that accounts for the discrepancies you're seeing?

[zeypher]

Also make sure your warrior does not have the stamina regen skill from battlemaster.

[hugin7]

I can't vouch for this personally, but one of the devs mentioned in a pre-launch stream that both warriors and rogues regen stamina every time they hit an enemy (not sure if this only applies to basic attacks). Perhaps that accounts for the discrepancies you're seeing?

 

Thank you - I just reviewed my combat footage from FRAPS and that's indeed the case!  Yet another undocumented feature...

I verified that mages don't have this behavior.

On that note, does anyone know the formulas for stamina regen from auto-attacks for warriors and rogues?  If not, I'll derive it later by counting the number of attacks in my recordings.
 

[zeypher]

warrior stamina regen via auto attack depends on weapons. 2 hander recovers it faster than w&s.

[GhoXen]

Stamina/mana regen appears to be simply percentage-based; 4% per second to be precise. This is why stamina regen would scale with a higher max stamina.

As for armor pen vs attack %. As I posted under "Attk vs AP Theorycrafting" (kinda buried in the middle of the testing post, now that I think about it), there is a point when armor pen % outpaces attack %. The conditions however are pretty strict and unlikely in actual playing. See spreadsheet here: https://mega.co.nz/#...tM3cZHv1pBq8REE

 

Against a target with 88 armor using weapons with 152 and 124 damage, the effectiveness of each 2% of armor pen and the effectiveness of 1% attack are as follows (using the same formula as the one from spreadsheet):

 

Damage Output Increase:

124 2% AP: 4.89%

124 1% Attk: 3.44%

152 2% AP: 2.75%

152 1% Attk: 2.38%

 

As you can see, the higher the enemy armor, and the lower the weapon damage, the more effective AP it is compared to Attk.

 

The issue here though, is that realistically speaking you will never ever be fighting enemies with that high an armor using that weak a weapon. In situations where a weapon appropriate for the level range is used (e.g. 210-250 DPS daggers for enemies with 0-54 armor, depending on type), armor pen falls behind Attk %.

 

Try the test again with your strongest weapons built out of Dragonbones, and the results will turn out to be very different.

 

AP is an inferior stat than Attk because of the following reasons combined together:

• Gives marginally less damage output compared to Attack %, even when attacking enemies with the highest armor in the same level range as the player weapons.
• Does not affect non-physical damage, including poison, elemental runes, various abilities (not necessarily just mage abilities, e.g. warrior's upgraded earthshaking strike DoT).
• Does not stack with crit/flank/guard damage bonus %. Unless you run at 5% crit % 40% crit damage, and if your character doesn't ever flank (i.e. tank), then AP should be avoided at all cost.
• Useless against mages (0 armor) and ineffective against archers (half of regular infantry's armor).
• Becomes even less effective if an enemy's armor is further reduced (i.e. Sundering, War Horn, etc.).

Overall, AP is just really a disappointing stat. I myself had high expectations for it prior to testing.

[Murph]

Brilliant. Thanks for your work

[lastpawn]

Probably a misunderstanding, but I just started a new playthrough and this 

• Primary Attributes: 16 Strength for warrior, 16 Dexterity for rogue, 16 Magic for mage, 10 points in every other attributes (will test if this is fixed at all levels, or increase over levels)

isn't true for my characters. Everyone has 10 across all stats.

[GhoXen]

Probably a misunderstanding, but I just started a new playthrough and this 

• Primary Attributes: 16 Strength for warrior, 16 Dexterity for rogue, 16 Magic for mage, 10 points in every other attributes (will test if this is fixed at all levels, or increase over levels)

isn't true for my characters. Everyone has 10 across all stats.

 

Guess so! After a bit more observation, it seems a character's class stat increase by 0.5 every level.

 

I suspect armor also increases very slightly every level (0.5). What's your armor at level 1?

[Ekstrj]

Per the Attack vs Armor Pen response:
This was using Dragonbone crafted weapons with Tier 3 Schematics using the highest materials giving Armor Pen or Attack +
The situation presented was literally a situation you would encounter at level 19. The only difference was that I was using normal hits instead of using an ability, but those weapons were top of the line Bows and Daggers as well as top of the line Weapon Upgrades (Hafts, grips, etc).

The monster was a standard monster you'd fight in the high level areas, and the damage was nearly Double using full Armor Pen compared to using full Attack. Nothing was held back.

[Ekstrj]

The above response is in response to the following (can't edit posts on the phone or quote):
"
The issue here though, is that realistically speaking you will never ever be fighting enemies with that high an armor using that weak a weapon. In situations where a weapon appropriate for the level range is used (e.g. 210-250 DPS daggers for enemies with 0-54 armor, depending on type), armor pen falls behind Attk %.

Try the test again with your strongest weapons built out of Dragonbones, and the results will turn out to be very different."

Again, realistically speaking, this situation is exactly what you would run into. The Damage per weapon I refer to is NOT DPS, but the raw damage per weapon as shown in the Character Screen under Attributes. I copied exactly what was there, and this is a very realistic situation at high levels.

[Ekstrj]

Further, the DPS per weapon is much higher than I stated (probably in the 200-300s). I only referred to the Damage because that was what was listed under statistics. I promise these are weapons someone would use against level 19 creatures, and there is nothing unrealistic about the scenario I showed.

[GhoXen]

Per the Attack vs Armor Pen response:
This was using Dragonbone crafted weapons with Tier 3 Schematics using the highest materials giving Armor Pen or Attack +
The situation presented was literally a situation you would encounter at level 19. The only difference was that I was using normal hits instead of using an ability, but those weapons were top of the line Bows and Daggers as well as top of the line Weapon Upgrades (Hafts, grips, etc).

The monster was a standard monster you'd fight in the high level areas, and the damage was nearly Double using full Armor Pen compared to using full Attack. Nothing was held back.

 

Again, the relation between armor pen and damage is not so linear. Those weapon damage still seem weak to me. For example, if I were to fight an enemy with 88 armor using the test weapon (210 DPS 2H Axe with 186 damage), AP would still be inferior - 2% AP for 1.8% damage, as opposed to 1% Attk for 1.9% damage. Note: the % I'm giving here are strictly for 2% AP and 1% Attk, if you stack 100% AP and 50% Attk, it'd be increase in damage output of 90% and 95% respectively. 

 

Your results fall perfectly within my theory. You merely presented a different situation where the enemy armor is indeed high, and the weapon damage is relatively low. I still consider AP an inferior stat even in such a situation for the reasons I've stated above. However, otherwise the spreadsheet should be referred to for assessing when basic attacks using AP will outpace basic attacks using Attk %.