435 réponses à ce sujet

[Ekstrj]

The problem is that both sets of weapons are Top end for BOTH Daggers and Bows. You suggesting Armor Pen will yield less damage than Attack at that level for both Dagger and Bow is Incorrect. These are top end weapons (literally one of the best Bows and best Daggers you can create with all tier 3 schematics)against a Level 19 Monster, and the daggers are doing Double Damage. There are situations where you'd depend on mostly Crit damage or monsters with no armor, but again this is just pointing out that saying flatly that Armor Pen is inferior to Attack is incorrect. There are many end game situations where you're facing high armored foes with these exact weapons, and so it's worth taking into consideration.

I will gladly run the test with a One handed Axe, top end with as much AP you can add compared to as much Attack as you can add once I get home, and we'll see how it compares as well. A tank would not be relying on Crits nor flanking damage, and will typically be attacking a high armored foe. This EXACT situation shows that Armor Pen for that tank will be mostly beneficial.

I appreciate your work on all of this. I just want to make sure you aren't negating a lot of End Game where min-maxing stats is most desirable.

[Ekstrj]

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong in general - I'm not stacking Armor Pen on my Assassin Rogue who mostly only attacks through Crits. Your findings are amazingly in depth and fairly comprehensive. I just noticed that in many different situations I was doing more damage with my Armor Pen weapons than with my Attack weapons.

I decided to record one of those situations for you to see that in top end gear against high armored monsters (at the same level as most end game enemies), Armor Pen is not only incredibly potent, but the damage is double in certain situations.

Your posts suggested Armor Pen should never be used when Attack is available, but the existence of these very real situations shows that perhaps that blanket statement should be rethought or at least clarified. Saying that the situation is unrealistic or unattainable is ignoring the fact that you cannot create a stronger Base Weapon Damage Bow or Dagger with the Tier 3 schematics. (Ignoring Runes)

[WillieStyle]

I've been playing this game as an "action game" from the start. However, it's one thing to do it as a dual dagger rogue with Cassandra. It's another thing entirely to be the sole tank. Should be fun.

As to the relative value of stats:
1) marginal stat values are nonlinear function of you current stats as Xen explained.
2) opportunity cost. It doesn't matter if attack is always better than armor pen or strength if you can't always trade them point for point. Xen's work is really valuable not just because it tells us what the best stat is. But because it tells us what the third and fourth best stars are.

[GhoXen]

Again, I'm not saying you're wrong in general - I'm not stacking Armor Pen on my Assassin Rogue who mostly only attacks through Crits. Your findings are amazingly in depth and fairly comprehensive. I just noticed that in many different situations I was doing more damage with my Armor Pen weapons than with my Attack weapons.

I decided to record one of those situations for you to see that in top end gear against high armored monsters (at the same level as most end game enemies), Armor Pen is not only incredibly potent, but the damage is double in certain situations.

Your posts suggested Armor Pen should never be used when Attack is available, but the existence of these very real situations shows that perhaps that blanket statement should be rethought or at least clarified. Saying that the situation is unrealistic or unattainable is ignoring the fact that you cannot create a stronger Base Weapon Damage Bow or Dagger with the Tier 3 schematics. (Ignoring Runes)

 

Why should you ignore runes? It's also worthwhile to point out that only +Damage runes are affected by AP, while Attack affects all runes.

 

Again, even as you've said the numbers only represent basic attack damage. If those are indeed the top-end bow and dagger damage, then that means low weapon damage is an issue unique to rogues. However, rogues also happen to be the one class that either relies most on crit % for various utilities, or rely on poison damage. Both of these focuses would suffer when using AP.

 

The only class in theory that should have benefited from AP is warrior, but 2H warriors have the weapons with the highest damage per hit, rendering AP less valuable than Attack. 2H warriors also rely on crit % for utilities, like rogues. SnS is probably the only playstyle that would get the full benefit out of AP, but that's not a DPS build so damage output is not nearly as relevant.

 

A rogue focused on crit % and attack % would deal more damage overall and provide more utility than a rogue focused on crit % and anything but full attack %. In realistic situations, I stand by my statement regarding AP's inferiority.

 

ADD: It's also worth noting the difference in priority of targets. High DPS is only valuable when you have to kill an enemy quickly, yes? And when do you need to kill an enemy quickly? When you are killing the enemy mage or archer. Who cares if it takes your party longer to kill that bruiser or defender?

 

Ah yes, forgot to mention earlier, but AP also doesn't do anything against barriers. Mages especially make AP an even poorer stat. Maybe you should consider cleansing the world of mages, and outfit everyone in templar armor. That way AP will have its value.

[Ekstrj]

I agree with you about class builds depending on Crit for damage as stated earlier, but not every rogue build is built around Crit. I can test 2H as well, but even you're admitting that a SNS warrior would benefit from my results. If you're ignoring your SNS Warrior's damage output completely, then you're ignoring the whole point of this thread - min-maxing.

I only said ignoring Runes because the weapons I listed did not have runes affecting damage to the Animal I was fighting in the tests. I can put runes into the mix as well and test them, but it sounds like you're brushing off my findings. Not sure it's worth it to argue with someone who ignores any additional data.

Either way, I showed you what I found through my own curiosity and eagerness to support your work, and I presented it in a way that would be applicable to end game minmaxing. If you want to talk it down or brush it off, that's your business. I believe I made my point, though.

[GhoXen]

A SnS's minmax is not on damage, but on survivability and utility. For instance, my SnS warrior has neither AP nor Attk%. Instead I put stagger % on him.

 

I don't disagree that AP allows more damage on basic attacks against enemies with high armor using weapons with relatively low damage (whether that's an issue of item tiers or types is not part of my theory). So it's true, if you are shooting bears then  you'll deal more damage with basic non-crit attacks using AP.

 

However, you are effectively trading damage to mages for damage to heavy armor. The priority there is not proper. Since killing mages > killing bears, Attk > AP.

[Ekstrj]

I have weapons for different types of fights in case I run into trouble. My thought would be Dragons and Single-Target Bosses may be analogous to the high armored single-target I was testing on. Many of these fights have targets immune to Staggering as well. You'll see in nearly all of my posts that I was never suggesting Armor Pen as a Catch-all choice, and that it was simply a more effective choice vs some of the situations you'll run into. I'm not sure what you're gaining by bringing up mages given you're the one giving a catch-all approach to Attack over Armor Pen.

Either way, it's clear you're starting to get incredibly defensive about something that isn't an insult to you and are reaching for sarcasm and jokes in defense, so I'll just bow out of supplementing your work with additional data and let you feel good about yourself again. Sorry if I touched a sensitive nerve in your ego.

[hugin7]

Thank you - I just reviewed my combat footage from FRAPS and that's indeed the case!  Yet another undocumented feature...

I verified that mages don't have this behavior.

On that note, does anyone know the formulas for stamina regen from auto-attacks for warriors and rogues?  If not, I'll derive it later by counting the number of attacks in my recordings.
 

 

After further testing, it appears both rogues and warriors regenerate 4 stam/sec when max stam = 100.  Earlier discrepancies were due to the stamina gained from random uncontrolled auto-attacks - my apologies for the confusion.  Per GhoXen, the true value is 4% of max stam/sec - thank you, GhoXen, for verifying cases where stam > 100.

 

Speaking of auto-attacks, both 1H+S warriors and archer rogues gain 5 stam per auto-attack.  Thanks to Scoutyo for pointing me in the right direction.  I'm not currently in position to test the stamina regen rate for 2-handers, though as zeypher mentioned, this rate should be higher than that of 1H+S.

[GhoXen]

I have weapons for different types of fights in case I run into trouble. My thought would be Dragons and Single-Target Bosses may be analogous to the high armored single-target I was testing on. Many of these fights have targets immune to Staggering as well. You'll see in nearly all of my posts that I was never suggesting Armor Pen as a Catch-all choice, and that it was simply a more effective choice vs some of the situations you'll run into. I'm not sure what you're gaining by bringing up mages given you're the one giving a catch-all approach to Attack over Armor Pen.

Either way, it's clear you're starting to get incredibly defensive about something that isn't an insult to you and are reaching for sarcasm and jokes in defense, so I'll just bow out of supplementing your work with additional data and let you feel good about yourself again. Sorry if I touched a sensitive nerve in your ego.

 

I'm not offended, but I did stop paying most of my attention when you claimed the opposite of what I stated. i.e. I never claimed that ArmorPen is less effective than Attk%  at higher armor. Merely that based on my initial theory the difference was marginal.

 

However, looking at your numbers, which at first glance seemed incorrect to me, it appears that I have made a fairly major mistake in the formula of damage calculation. My Attack Test 3 must have been affected by RNG too much, and as a result I was misled. This is especially the case since the issue is only apparent when the difference between weapon damage and armor is minor, and attack % is used in the test. Which is why that even as I worked with Attack % in my various other tests (i.e. crit damage bonus), I didn't detect the error.

 

Contrary to what I initially theorised, attack % does not apply before armor mitigation. Instead, it is applied afterwards. However, based on the results of my other tests, bonus damage % (such as crit/flank/guard) still apply before armor mitigation. This also make some sense from a game design point of view, since defense % apply after mitigation, so it only makes some sense that attack % also apply after mitigation.

 

This is going to change the valuation of armor penetration % and attack % entirely. So I'll be updating my spreadsheet.

 

On the other hand, I also realised that tier 2 and tier 3 materials tend to give attack % some bias. At tier 1, 1% Attack costs as much as 2% AP. However, by tier 2 it's a ratio of 1:5:2:5, making AP relatively more costly, and in tier 3 it's 1:75:3, making it slightly less costly at least than tier 2 again. There is also no tier 4 material for Attack, but there is one for AP (3.5%). Just some considerations when using the spreadsheet.

[Cyberpunk]

Do you know if FT Hidden Blades ability is the same as rogue's ability at 300% weapon damage? 

[GhoXen]

Do you know if FT Hidden Blades ability is the same as rogue's ability at 300% weapon damage? 

 

If it doesn't state the damage multiplier, then yes. If not, then no.

 

If I remember correctly, Masterwork Hidden Blade states it's 10% chance to trigger HB at 50% damage.

[GhoXen]

Anyway, here's a damage calculator that should make comparing stats a lot easier:

https://mega.co.nz/#...16cRqS4Gqaalg2g

[GRADM Thrawn]

I had been noticing that my inquisitor, which is a human warrior-two hander, was getting killed very easily by relatively week enemies. So I looked in my attributes, in my defenses and found that my ranged, melee and magic defenses were almost 300% in the negative. How is that possible and how do I fix it?

[zeypher]

I had been noticing that my inquisitor, which is a human warrior-two hander, was getting killed very easily by relatively week enemies. So I looked in my attributes, in my defenses and found that my ranged, melee and magic defenses were almost 300% in the negative. How is that possible and how do I fix it?

One of your items has the Berserk enchant/mastercraft on it. Get rid of it as berserk is absolutely terrible. The enchant is giving you 10-30% damage and you take 100-300% more damage. Totally worthless.

[lastpawn]

Guess so! After a bit more observation, it seems a character's class stat increase by 0.5 every level.

 

I suspect armor also increases very slightly every level (0.5). What's your armor at level 1?

 

Yes, 1/2 increase every level seems right.

 

Here's what I have for my party (when "naked"):

 

Inquisitor, Level 2 Warrior, 38 Armor Rating

Cassandra, Level 1, 40 Armor Rating

Solas, Level 1, 39 Armor Rating

Varric, Level 1, 38 Armor Rating

 

From another save, I see

 

Inquisitor, Level 2 Rogue, 39 Armor Rating

 

And another, I see

 

Inquisitor, Level 2 Mage, 38 Armor Rating

 

Not sure why the numbers are what they are, but there you have it.

[odi0n]

Beautiful thread OP. Will watch it. Bookmarked!

I have questions,
If you can respond in the lamest terms I will greatly appreciate it. I am still new to breaking down these types of games. So a lot of this stuff is still over my head.


Question 1:
Guard damage % only applies to armored npc's (with shields/heavy armor)? So, if unarmored, none of the guard damage percentage translates through?

Question 2:
DPS (Damage Per Second) Confused by the following... my staff says 109 dps, but when you look at the damage it says 70. So which is it? 109? Or 70?

[Manki]

I apparently should have been following this thread more closely than I have been. Due to a response in another thread started by lastpawn, I figured I should add my findings here.

 

This is specifically regarding the "% Bleed on Hit" effects. I recently acquired a "10% Bleed on Hit" ring which actually works. I definitely noticed that up until now these particular effects have not been working. However this one seems to. The damage it deals is reflected by a completely separate damage number that is 10% of my auto attack. i.e. I strike an enemy for 400 damage, a separate 40 damage number will appear.

 

Is it possible there is some invisible threshold where it does not work? Also having not read through every post (I know, I'm terrible) has anyone been able to confirm or disprove of whether or not the "% Bleed on Hit" effects are added to the initial damage? The only thoughts I have besides "broken" would be that up until a certain threshold % (for example with my %10 ring), the damage may be added to the same damage number for.....clarity? If so, this is extremely counter intuitive to how the ability is worded.

 

When I get home from work I may be able to report with a screenshot of what I'm attempting to describe.

[Blackpox]

Question 1:
Guard damage % only applies to armored npc's (with shields/heavy armor)? So, if unarmored, none of the guard damage percentage translates through?

Question 2:
DPS (Damage Per Second) Confused by the following... my staff says 109 dps, but when you look at the damage it says 70. So which is it? 109? Or 70?

 

Answer to 1:

Guard damage % only works on npcs with guard (not armor), guard is usually generated by warriors as an additional layer of protection and it looks like grey lines above the npcs health.

 

 

Answer to 2:

109 dps is (weapon damage) * (weapon attack speed), the weapon damage is 70 and it attacks at a rate of 1.55 attacks per second. As most abilities and spells rely on weapon damage, the damage stat (and not the dps one) is the more important.

[Shanj0hn]

I have a question about armor penetration mechanics. How does it working when you stack more than 100%?

For example, i'll use t3 bow with 44% AP, 20% AP ring, Gaps in armor passive 25%, and ambush (50% AP for 6 seconds). Summary 139% AP. Will i have bonus damage based on enemy armor?

[Matth85]

Question: how does damage modifiers work? Are they all multiplicative, additive or do they work in "classes"? 

For instance. My weapon got a 100 damage.

Mighty blow deals 200% weapon damage. Target is knocked down, so I get an extra(?) 300% -- is that 200+300=500, or 2*3=600% or just 300%?

I use horn of valor to buff it by additional 35%. The enemies is also knocked down, giving me another 30% damage increase. 

 

Looking away from crit, or any other modifiers. Just raw, isolated, relevant, numbers.

 

Do I do 500% x (35% + 30%) = 500 x 1,65     =  825     damage. Additive.

Do I do 500% x (35% x 30%) =  500 * 1.105   =  552,5  damage. Class-based where the more +% Damage I get, the less it is worth.

Do I do 500% x 35% x 30%                             =  877,5  damage. Directly multiplicative.

 

I am trying to find out what what sort of damage modifier I should stack up, and if the effect of 35% more damage is a flat out 35% damage increase, or is being DRed with, day, 30% from knockdown. I am also wondering whether some modifiers calculates before others, meaning it might be worth more/less depending.

 

Another question is related to freezing and shatter combo. Looking away from the obvious bug with Warrior doing 1 damage shatter, how does that damage calculate in relation to your other damage bonuses? If an enemy gets knocked down, then frozen, do I do my added damage from Mighty blow + passive and do a shatter, or does one override the other? 

I hope they work together, as that could crate some devastating combos!

[DarkGuard]

Ironically that means that a 2handed tank going for max armor through dwarf (legion of the dead armor /bc highest armor rating), champion, and vanguard bonus guard/armor passives stacking can face tank every dragon on nightmare only taking 1 dmg per hit  - if front armor wasn't bugged, at least. It also turns "To the Death" into the best boss killing ability in the game, provided you break it at around every 30 secs to stop getting hit too hard. Now factor in 75% melee defense and you've got around 200% bonus damage vs bosses including perma taunt with very little and managable risk. Makes Knight-Enchanter seem really weak in comparison

Ofc some magic resist would still be needed, but damn, you can do some brutal things with the poor enemies...

[Zephymos]

So how does Guard affect resistance to stagger? Does it provide immunity, a % chance to avoid it or is it based on damage threshold?

[DarkGuard]

I believe it provides immunity to stagger, knockdown and poison as long as any attack does not break through, i.e. depletes the last point of guard. I'm not completely sure if this applies to all enemies, though. Especially dragons, giants, berzerkers and behemoths could possibly knock you still down with their huge swipe attack, but then, incidentially, they also broke through my tanks guard with that, soo..

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

GhoXen what is your opinion on a 2H tank. Is the shield really mandatory on hard-nightmare? 

I'm talking about skyhold+, prob better with shield until you can get proper crafting done.

[Paulyj113]

im confused about barrier damage bonus. does the character in use get a bonus when attacking to the normal damage done to enemies? or do enemies recieve damage when they attack the character in use who has a barrier up? im not at all clear as to how this works. same with guard damage bonus :-/