80 réponses à ce sujet

[revan017]

I am bringing this question up because I remember one of the devs saying there is no gay marriage in Thedas, simply because it's anachronistic.

 

Then Dragon Age: Inquisition came out.

 

Personally, I love the progressive views on gender, sex, and sexuality. They're awesome and they reflect a diverse viewpoint. However, I think they're very contemporary, to the point of almost being anachronistic. And this kind of flies against the dev that said, no gay marriage cause it's anachronistic:

 

(1) IRON BULL'S VIEWS ON KREM:

Iron Bull is amazing and his views on Krem being a guy is very progressive and very modern. Krem's story is of course heart-breaking. That said, IB is Qunari. And all Qunari are fundamentalists by definition. While I agree that it is time for trans* representation in video games -- and you know what I get pissed because I always feel I have to select the "Investigate" (?) icon for dialogues and there was a "?" where you refer to Krem as a woman and I just did not want to click it because it didn't make sense to me -- , spouting such contemporary views coming from a soldier who hails from a rather fundamentalist society seems slightly anachronistic, if not even out of character.

 

(2) IRON BULL'S VIEWS ON BDSM:

As someone who does dabble into BDSM, I'm wondering about people's reaction to this. The whole the sub actually feels power by losing it makes sense to someone who practices. But I'm wondering -- for people who don't do BDSM, this could potentially seem slightly abusive. Such treatment of this fetish -- including a SAFEWORD -- I dunno. It seems rather odd.

 

(3) DORIAN AND HIS FATHER:

Another heartbreaking scene. But don't you think sans the magic and Tevinter issues, we could extrapolate and transfer the dialogue to modern drama scene? A repentant father who initially disapproved of his gay son? This is a very modern -- not to mention COMMON -- theme in LGBT fiction.

 

 

(4) SERA

 

Weirdly enough, Sera does not talk to me about being a lesbian. I don't know why. I think I may have heard banter with her and Blackwall, but why does not she not tell me that "Hi, I'm Sera and I'm a lesbian?" It just seems slightly odd.

[o Ventus]

For Bull, him not always following the Qun is kind of the point. He's a member of their society, but he doesn't exactly adhere to their policy.

 

For Dorian, his father's problems only arise due to his Tevinter heritage. Everywhere else in Thedas, sexual orientation is of little virtue. If he were Fereldan or from the Free Marches, I doubt anyone in his family would care nearly as much, if at all (outside regular homophobia).

[TheJediSaint]

Thedas is not Medival Europe. The setting is free to be as progressive or regressive on any issue the writers want.

[Cat Fancy]

They're not anachronistic because Thedas isn't real and sexual mores can be whatever the devs want them to be. I think it was David Gaider who said that about gay marriage, but I can't find the forum link. Here it's quoted on tumblr, from a defunct GameBanshee post. I think it was a weird thing to say, maybe he still thinks that, maybe the devs have changed their mind. I don't really care one way or another. Personally, I like that homophobia exists in Thedas - as a gay person, I find queer characters in this universe more relatable because they (sometimes) have to deal with at.

(1) IRON BULL'S VIEWS ON KREM:

Iron Bull is amazing and his views on Krem being a guy is very progressive and very modern. Krem's story is of course heart-breaking. That said, IB is Qunari. And all Qunari are fundamentalists by definition. While I agree that it is time for trans* representation in video games -- and you know what I get pissed because I always feel I have to select the "Investigate" (?) icon for dialogues and there was a "?" where you refer to Krem as a woman and I just did not want to click it because it didn't make sense to me -- , spouting such contemporary views coming from a soldier who hails from a rather fundamentalist society seems slightly anachronistic, if not even out of character.

Nothing about being a fundamentalist precludes trans acceptance. It depends on what you're a fundamentalist about. Iran is a theocracy, but sex change operations are paid for by the state and sanctioned by the religion. That being said, this does feel like they changed their concept of the Qunari a bit,* and it annoys me, but only because literally every single thing about Qunari lore bothers me beyond all reason. The Qunari are BIG on prescribed roles, but they accept trans* people? Whatever. Of course they do. I mean, I guess the Tamassrans could just assign a gender like any other aspect of someone's role, but like I said: I find the Qunari almost impossibly annoying no matter what.

 

(2) IRON BULL'S VIEWS ON BDSM:

As someone who does dabble into BDSM, I'm wondering about people's reaction to this. The whole the sub actually feels power by losing it makes sense to someone who practices. But I'm wondering -- for people who don't do BDSM, this could potentially seem slightly abusive. Such treatment of this fetish -- including a SAFEWORD -- I dunno. It seems rather odd.

I thought it was pretty goofy when Iron Bull was like earnestly explaining and justifying BDSM to the Inquisitor. So glad no one saw me actually seek out that content. It's anachronistic to the same extent that the other things you discuss are (not really, because Thedas is fake), but more importantly, it's so goofy. (his later romance scenes are hilarious, though)

 

*I do like that they used the word "kossith" in-game, even though they said they never would. I truly cannot wait for the next fight about that; I am so prepared for it. #teamjustcallthemkossith

[Wanderlust14]

I don't understand your complaint about Sera. She doesn't mention that she is a lesbian and so that is odd? It is actually the most correct for a game set in the past. It can also be argued that if you go further back in history, such as the time of antiquity and into other cultures, you will find discussions of transgender (such as the third gender in some Asian cultures) and homosexuality.

[daveliam]

So here are my thoughts on each of the points:

 

1.)  Bull and Krem - I think that there are two ways to look at it.  First, while the Qunari do have a strict caste system, the dialogue with Sten, where he assumes that a female Warden must be a man because she's a warrior, seems to relate to this.  Krem looks and acts like a man.  He functions as a man (socially, not biologically, obviously).  It seems to me that the social funcationality is the key part of the Qunari view.  Add to the fact that Krem wasn't born into the Qun and doesn't follow the Qun and I can see why Bull would just accept him for who he is:  a tough, capable fighter who's gender identity aligns with the role that he's playing in Bull's group.  The second way to look at it is that Bull doesn't show terribly strict adherence to the Qun's teaching in many ways already.  He kind of Qun-lite, in a way, so I could see Krem's gender as something that he can support with little issues of worldview because he doesn't hold most of the 'hardcore' Qun philosophies to heart anyway.  It's probably a combination of both of these factors that lead to his easy-going nature towards Krem.

 

2.)  Bull and BDSM - I think that there has been BDSM since there have been people having sex.  It's not a terribly new concept.  Dominance and submissiveness play out naturally in the bedroom, I think.  The safeword is a bit anachronistic, though.  I haven't done that romance yet (doing it with my male dwarf in my next playthrough), but if he actually uses the word "safeword", then yeah, that's a pretty modern concept, I believe.  But I'm also not an expert in BDSM.

 

3.)  Dorian and his father - This story fits very well into the DA Lore.  It's already been established that there is a bit of disdain in Tevinter towards s/s romances, unless they are casual and with slaves.  It's also pretty well established that the propagation of magical bloodlines is also key in keeping the Magisters in power in Tevinter.  So the fact that Dorian rejects a political marriage because he's gay is kind of a big deal, especially if he's the only son in the family.  I don't think that this is a modern concept.  Look at Edward II of England.  It's a pretty similar situation and it ended pretty poorly for Edward when he decided to continue his relationships with his favourites throughout his political marriage. 

 

4.)  Sera's sexuality - I think it's kind of awesome that she's not a walking "I'm a big ol' lesbian" billboard.  The LGBT themes are already pretty prominent in some of the character's arcs, so it's nice to have an LGBT character who doesn't make a big deal about her sexuality.  She's a lesbian.  She digs big ol' strapping gals like qunari and that's about that.  I think it's realistic to have LGBT characters whose sexualities plays a big role in their personal stories.  And I think it's equally realistic to have LGBT characters whose sexualities don't play a big role in their personal stories.

 

I actually think they did a really commendable job with LGBT issues in this game.  It's all done with respect and the LGBT characters are all well-developed characters who happen to be LGBT, not LGBT characters who happen to be in the game.  I like it and I a proud fan of Bioware right now because of it.

[revan017]

<Perhaps as a caveat I should mention that I am not homophobic. I actually am a self-identifying member of the LGBT. I found all the themes were actually pretty interesting and progressive and that is a good thing for a medium that has long served a traditionalist background. Please don't see the original post as lists of complaints -- they're more...interesting things that piqued my interest to discuss>

[(Disgusted noise.)]

A fictional world by definition can't be anachronisitic. Using that reason for no same-sex marriage is (iron) bullcrap, especially when the two marriages we've seen the most of first hand (Leandra's and Aveline's are equally anachronistic if that word was applicable to Thedas).

[Lady Artifice]

 

 

*I do like that they used the word "kossith" in-game, even though they said they never would. I truly cannot wait for the next fight about that; I am so prepared for it. #teamjustcallthemkossith

 

 

Woot.

[SovietCyborg]

The idea of traits like heterosexuality/bisexuality/homosexuality/etc. simply did not exist or were poorly understood. So everything was reduced to the act, sexual taboos and sins. A gay person in the Middle Ages wouldn't be seen as gay but a man committing the mortal sin of sodomy and committing a crime against nature. Sins and taboos can be very arbitrary and vary according to cultures. 

 

There's however one thing that it is certain in Thedas: Arranged Marriages. Like in historical times, aristocratic families don't marry for love, but because your family demands it. The point behind aristocratic marriages is not the union of two individuals in love, the point is to solidify alliances and pacts between two aristocratic families. Marriage is a business, love have no place in that world. They will choose your spouse or husband for you and often he/she will be a total stranger. Elves in alienages also seem to follow that model.

 

Like business, all aristocratic houses seek to perpetuate themselves. Since virtually all meaningful power, land and wealth is inherited, your house depends on your ability to produce off-spring capable so he he/she inherits your title one day keeping your family's legacy alive. You might be allowed to have secret lovers outside your marriages but your first duty is producing off-spring and keep the legacy of your house intact. Besides that, you often married much sooner: at 14 or even earlier to produce more babies. Death by child bird was fairly common and Infant mortality pretty high, even among wealthy families .

 

The few people in Orlais that know about Celene's relationship with a female servant don't seem particularly bothered by it. Either this is openly accepted or seen just a little perverted fun. Notice that Marjolaine seduced The Divine Justinia herself, and bisexuality is a desirable trait among assassins and bards. They have more problems with the fact that her lover, Briala, is an elf. But what they are truly horrified is about the possibility that she might be in love with her and never produce a heir. A monarch without a heir is in a very vulnerable position. It only takes one assassination to ruin your branch in the dynasty and invite usurpers and civil war. 

[FlightyFelon]

There's actually a codex entry in-game that talks about sexuality in Thedas. (Written by Brother Genetivi, no less)

 

So no. Not anachronistic.

[Mr.House]

So here are my thoughts on each of the points:

 

1.)  Bull and Krem - I think that there are two ways to look at it.  First, while the Qunari do have a strict caste system, the dialogue with Sten, where he assumes that a female Warden must be a man because she's a warrior, seems to relate to this.  Krem looks and acts like a man.  He functions as a man (socially, not biologically, obviously).  It seems to me that the social funcationality is the key part of the Qunari view.  Add to the fact that Krem wasn't born into the Qun and doesn't follow the Qun and I can see why Bull would just accept him for who he is:  a tough, capable fighter who's gender identity aligns with the role that he's playing in Bull's group.  The second way to look at it is that Bull doesn't show terribly strict adherence to the Qun's teaching in many ways already.  He kind of Qun-lite, in a way, so I could see Krem's gender as something that he can support with little issues of worldview because he doesn't hold most of the 'hardcore' Qun philosophies to heart anyway.  It's probably a combination of both of these factors that lead to his easy-going nature towards Krem.

 

2.)  Bull and BDSM - I think that there has been BDSM since there have been people having sex.  It's not a terribly new concept.  Dominance and submissiveness play out naturally in the bedroom, I think.  The safeword is a bit anachronistic, though.  I haven't done that romance yet (doing it with my male dwarf in my next playthrough), but if he actually uses the word "safeword", then yeah, that's a pretty modern concept, I believe.  But I'm also not an expert in BDSM.

 

3.)  Dorian and his father - This story fits very well into the DA Lore.  It's already been established that there is a bit of disdain in Tevinter towards s/s romances, unless they are casual and with slaves.  It's also pretty well established that the propagation of magical bloodlines is also key in keeping the Magisters in power in Tevinter.  So the fact that Dorian rejects a political marriage because he's gay is kind of a big deal, especially if he's the only son in the family.  I don't think that this is a modern concept.  Look at Edward II of England.  It's a pretty similar situation and it ended pretty poorly for Edward when he decided to continue his relationships with his favourites throughout his political marriage. 

 

4.)  Sera's sexuality - I think it's kind of awesome that she's not a walking "I'm a big ol' lesbian" billboard.  The LGBT themes are already pretty prominent in some of the character's arcs, so it's nice to have an LGBT character who doesn't make a big deal about her sexuality.  She's a lesbian.  She digs big ol' strapping gals like qunari and that's about that.  I think it's realistic to have LGBT characters whose sexualities plays a big role in their personal stories.  And I think it's equally realistic to have LGBT characters whose sexualities don't play a big role in their personal stories.

 

I actually think they did a really commendable job with LGBT issues in this game.  It's all done with respect and the LGBT characters are all well-developed characters who happen to be LGBT, not LGBT characters who happen to be in the game.  I like it and I a proud fan of Bioware right now because of it.

Well said.

[webbedfeet]

I don't feel it's anachronistic, no. First, this isn't medieval Europe. Second, there were other cultures who had different takes on sexuality and gender in the past before Western culture swooped in, so I don't feel like it's particularly unrealistic for 'pre-modern' cultures to come up with these things. (Yes, swooping is baaaaaaaad. No cheese for you.)

I'm one of those people where, if I'm going to suspend my disbelief far enough to take warring mages and templars and old gods and fantasy politics in stride, I'll take fantasy sexual mores in stride, too. Whatever fits the writers' boat. I DO understand that people really differ on that front and all kinds of things jump out to all kinds of people, though.

[Chari]

It seems to be a new retcon after a new retcon but I don't care much
Except the qunari part. I just don't believe that a society which is as strict as theirs easily accepts trans folk. Especially since they seem to define roles by sex and gender and use them to the max efficency at cost of one's identity. If it was this simple it just would make all their talk about efficency seem like a talk and nothing more

[Wolfen09]

It seems to be a new retcon after a new retcon but I don't care much
Except the qunari part. I just don't believe that a society which is as strict as theirs easily accepts trans folk. Especially since they seem to define roles by sex and gender and use them to the max efficency at cost of one's identity. If it was this simple it just would make all their talk about efficency seem like a talk and nothing more

 

that surprises me too, but so far the only instances we have seen were sten to the female warden and bull to krem.... sten and bull are of the qun while the warden and krem are not....  i wonder if sten and bull dont care as much cause the warden and krem arent of the qun....  would be interesting to see the way they react to someone in the qun who is like that....  maybe tallis goes lesbian or something...

[Yermogi]

My take on the BDSM with Bull- I like how he explained it. As someone who is not really experienced in that area, it was interesting to hear a character talk about it.

Spoiler

His line "I'll never hurt you without permission," made me flinch though. I do not do pain.

My only issue with the Quizzie being a sub is that you don't get a choice in that. Bull isn't flexible at all in that reguard- he doesn't change rolls, and insists its what the Inquisitor needs. Who the hell is he to tell my Quizzie what they do or do not need? Being Ben-Hassrath does not mean he knows everything. If they're saving the damn world, I'm pretty sure they can handle figuring out what they want in the bedroom.

That was my only issue with him. We didn't get to negotiate on that at all. Bull comes off as very controlling like that, and I do not mean that in a good way. I would have liked to negotiate that sort of thing with him without ending the romance.

[Cat Fancy]

I thought it seemed like the Qunari have a place for trans people in their society, based on the way Bull talked about Krem.

 

Which does seems a little counter-intuitive.

 

Like almost everything else about the Qunari.

 

would be interesting to see the way they react to someone in the qun who is like that....  maybe tallis goes lesbian or something...

I would have thought the Qunari had a problem with non-procreative sex, but Bull's dialogue says otherwise. The Qunari seem to have sex workers, but it's a taboo to have romantic relationships or sex with friends, I think? Maybe I'm wrong; certainly the Qunari make no sense, ever. 

[staindgrey]

(4) SERA

 

Weirdly enough, Sera does not talk to me about being a lesbian. I don't know why. I think I may have heard banter with her and Blackwall, but why does not she not tell me that "Hi, I'm Sera and I'm a lesbian?" It just seems slightly odd.

I'm... confused. You expected her to tell you her orientation for no good reason? Why? For most people, their orientation isn't something that's brought up unless it's necessary to the situation. I romanced Sera, and you can just tell which way she leans by how she acts and what she deems attractive. She doesn't have to say anything, nor is she required to. She's just who she is, regardless of what gender she enjoys the company of.

 

I actually enjoyed the way Cassandra turned my female Inquisitor down. I kept picking flirt options just to fluster her because I knew she was straight, but also tried to befriend and help her. At one point, she pulled me aside and said, essentially, "Thank you for being my friend. And I've noticed the flirting, the looks... [You then have a chance to deny this or further push her.] ...No, I need to tell you this. I appreciate you, and I'm flattered, but I hope you understand... I can't. Because you're... a... woman." It's authentically awkward but just as genuine, and it allows you to play your Inquisitor as either a heartbroken woman, an understanding minority or a confused bystander.

 

In general, I think they've approached modern sexuality with a skilled hand in this game. Kudos to them.

[Grayvisions]

However, I think they're very contemporary, to the point of almost being anachronistic.

 

 

Pretty sure dudes didn't just recently start bangin' each other. *points at Romans and before*

 

Expressing them in this medium is contemporary, that it happened is not, so that's not the same as marriage which ~is~ a contemporary issue.

[Chari]

Qunari do make sense
But a lot of what the Bull says doesn't
I am not surprised they have prostitutes. They prolly have means of protection. Still Bull doesnt feel like qunari to me due to a lot of what he says and does

[Zandilar]

It seems to be a new retcon after a new retcon but I don't care much
Except the qunari part. I just don't believe that a society which is as strict as theirs easily accepts trans folk. Especially since they seem to define roles by sex and gender and use them to the max efficency at cost of one's identity. If it was this simple it just would make all their talk about efficency seem like a talk and nothing more

 

If maximum efficiency is the goal, then surely putting people into roles they're best suited to is the most efficient way to go about it. So if you've got a female Qunari (or of another race living under the Qun), and she's suited to fighting because she's particularly big and strong (or quick and ruthless or any other combination of traits that'd make a particularly good fighter), then she must be male, no? Putting her into any other role wouldn't be the best use of her... So, they just change her gender.

 

But that opens a whole other can of worms about gender identity under the Qun...

[Draining Dragon]

yep

[revan017]

I'm... confused. You expected her to tell you her orientation for no good reason? Why? For most people, their orientation isn't something that's brought up unless it's necessary to the situation. I romanced Sera, and you can just tell which way she leans by how she acts and what she deems attractive. She doesn't have to say anything, nor is she required to. She's just who she is, regardless of what gender she enjoys the company of.

 

I actually enjoyed the way Cassandra turned my female Inquisitor down. I kept picking flirt options just to fluster her because I knew she was straight, but also tried to befriend and help her. At one point, she pulled me aside and said, essentially, "Thank you for being my friend. And I've noticed the flirting, the looks... [You then have a chance to deny this or further push her.] ...No, I need to tell you this. I appreciate you, and I'm flattered, but I hope you understand... I can't. Because you're... a... woman." It's authentically awkward but just as genuine, and it allows you to play your Inquisitor as either a heartbroken woman, an understanding minority or a confused bystander.

 

In general, I think they've approached modern sexuality with a skilled hand in this game. Kudos to them.

 

That's an interesting take on the Cassandra rejection. Unfortunately...the Cullen one is way too blunt for my taste. He is almost dismissive, really. It was a very blunt "Yo, bro, I'm into you." and he was like "I'd like to be your friend but nothing more." It was just...would be kind of nice if he led us on for a little bit before crushing our hearts rather than just being awkward. And for some reason there was no option to continue to pester him about it

[Cat Fancy]

Qunari do make sense
But a lot of what the Bull says doesn't
I am not surprised they have prostitutes. They prolly have means of protection. Still Bull doesnt feel like qunari to me due to a lot of what he says and does

What Bull says is, until we hear otherwise, how Qunari society works.

 

I sort of agree about Bull, but, again, I am always on the lookout for ways that Qunari lore is inconsistent and makes no sense. However, he is a spy, like Tallis. I mean, Phil and Elizabeth Jennings don't act like orthodox Marxist-Leninists because it's their job not to. Although he's openly Qunari and not hiding that to the Inquisitor, he's still (like Tallis) trained not to have that mannered affect other Qunari and Tal-Vashoth have. He also admits he feels conflicted about some aspects of Qunari society and isn't necessarily thrilled with the idea of them conquering southern Thedas. We know that some Qunari are like this, otherwise there wouldn't be Tal-Vashoth.

 

 

That's an interesting take on the Cassandra rejection. Unfortunately...the Cullen one is way too blunt for my taste. He is almost dismissive, really. It was a very blunt "Yo, bro, I'm into you." and he was like "I'd like to be your friend but nothing more." It was just...would be kind of nice if he led us on for a little bit before crushing our hearts rather than just being awkward. And for some reason there was no option to continue to pester him about it

Why would you need to keep pestering him about this? The issue is closed. And why would Cullen want to lead the Inquisitor on?

[Chari]

If maximum efficiency is the goal, then surely putting people into roles they're best suited to is the most efficient way to go about it. So if you've got a female Qunari (or of another race living under the Qun), and she's suited to fighting because she's particularly big and strong (or quick and ruthless or any other combination of traits that'd make a particularly good fighter), then she must be male, no? Putting her into any other role wouldn't be the best use of her... So, they just change her gender.

But that opens a whole other can of worms about gender identity under the Qun...

For women like her there are roles of farmers and benhassrath. Qunari do sweeping generalization, using biological differences to the max. We were told before by MK that women can be warriors and men can be farmers in rare cases but also that the majority of them wouldn't like it. I guess because since birth they are told what people are supposed and not supposed to be. And those who deny their role deny themselves
Heck, even among benhassrath and scientists there are still very few roles done by both sexes. E.g. women convert women and children. Men - men
Qunari believe strongly that sexes excell at different thing. And even if a man can be a good artist or a woman can be a strong warrior the opposite sex would still do better. They also use racial elements like training elves and humans as spies. I bet due to elves small bodies they rarely let them become fighters
So in my opinion cases like Krem are treated the same way basalitans are (prove it or be unworthy). That seems to be the most logical approach