80 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

Here's my thoughts on Bull; he's simply better at expressing these ideas in the common tongue than Sten was. Sten had been in the south for a couple of months when he met up with the Warden, he barely speaks the language and he has no concept of Ferelden society.

 

Bull's been down south for ten years. He knows the lingo, he knows how it works, so he's better able to verbalize and express things, and more inclined to do so.

 

I'm also not surprised by the qunari acceptance of trans individuals; from what we know about their society they define the self more based on the soul than the body. In that logic, it makes sense.

[ButterRum]

Are there any Asians in Thedas? Or do they not exist like in every medieval fantasy game?

We finally got our pansexual, biromantic, demisexual, non-binary, genderfluid Quanari-elf mage... #diversity

[Former_Fiend]

Are there any Asians in Thedas? Or do they not exist like in every medieval fantasy game?

We finally got our pansexual, biromantic, demisexual, non-binary, genderfluid Quanari-elf mage... #diversity

 

Do they exist? Potentially; we haven't seen any, though. We do get Josephine musing on what lies beyond the seas in this game, which may be a hint we're going to find out in future games.

[revan017]

Why would you need to keep pestering him about this? The issue is closed. And why would Cullen want to lead the Inquisitor on?

 

That would have been epic! Imagine, frame it this way. A shy male Inquisitor. He starts to buddy up with Cullen. He laughs at his stupid jokes. They talk about war. Cullen opens out about his withdrawal. He starts rampaging. Male Inquisitor holds him and soothes him down. They sit down and share a moment. Male Inquisitor misreads the moment and kisses Cullen. They kiss for like 30 seconds before Cullen pushes back.

 

"What are you doing?"

 

"I'm sorry," my mage murmurs. "I didn't mean for this to happen."

 

Cullen walks over to his window.

 

"You're a special person, Inquisitor. Thank you for talking me out of this troubled time. But...but....I like women."

 

Inquisitor turns around.

 

"I'm sorry if I led you on."

 

"I guess I wasn't special enough."

 

#cuetears

[revan017]

I've been musing about Iron Bull as well. I think we also have to factor in that the Chargers are NOT Qunari. They work for a Qunari boss, but they themselves are semi-mercenary. They take contracts. Krem himself said Iron Bull is not trying to convert the Chargers.

 

I suppose I remember now a friend of mine who is a practicing member of a rather fundamentalist religion (won't namedrop here -- don't want to cause flame wars!). Like I confronted him once, like why are you friends with me, I'm gay. And he was like yeah, so?

[Applepie_Svk]

There was an ancient time when games were actually for playing and not for brainwashing with political prophaganda of real world... This topic of sexuality in DA I am really tired off, if I want to listen or read something then I am going to internet instead of playing a game with fictional world. I think that SJW went to far with this nonsence.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Are there any Asians in Thedas? Or do they not exist like in every medieval fantasy game?

We finally got our pansexual, biromantic, demisexual, non-binary, genderfluid Quanari-elf mage... #diversity

Dorian is South Asian (Indian), so yes. If you mean East Asian, no, not yet. But we have been limited to a single continent so far.

[Zandilar]

For women like her there are roles of farmers and benhassrath. Qunari do sweeping generalization, using biological differences to the max. We were told before by MK that women can be warriors and men can be farmers in rare cases but also that the majority of them wouldn't like it. I guess because since birth they are told what people are supposed and not supposed to be. And those who deny their role deny themselves
Heck, even among benhassrath and scientists there are still very few roles done by both sexes. E.g. women convert women and children. Men - men
Qunari believe strongly that sexes excell at different thing. And even if a man can be a good artist or a woman can be a strong warrior the opposite sex would still do better. They also use racial elements like training elves and humans as spies. I bet due to elves small bodies they rarely let them become fighters
So in my opinion cases like Krem are treated the same way basalitans are (prove it or be unworthy). That seems to be the most logical approach

 

Just want to say, I hate the Qun as a concept. It is basically ridiculous. I don't understand why anyone would want to stay in a society like that, let alone join it for any reason other than sword point. It's fine if you happen to fit into their restrictions, but if you fall outside of those? You're going to lead a miserable life.

 

So my points were kind of being devil's advocate... and I think you're letting yourself be a little blinded by real Earth/Western beliefs. Some societies on Earth had the idea of a third gender, which goes to show you a binary idea of gender is not a universal one. What if the Qun has stuff built into it that allows the "mothers" or whatever to assign a person to a different gender? Those traits I listed are not all good for a farmer - a big, strong, ruthless, fearless female would probably be wasted on the farm, the Qunari need warm bodies for their war, so they might need to take the occasional female-turned-male. It can be spun to be consistent with the Qun.

[Chari]

Just want to say, I hate the Qun as a concept. It is basically ridiculous. I don't understand why anyone would want to stay in a society like that, let alone join it for any reason other than sword point. It's fine if you happen to fit into their restrictions, but if you fall outside of those? You're going to lead a miserable life.

So my points were kind of being devil's advocate... and I think you're letting yourself be a little blinded by real Earth/Western beliefs. Some societies on Earth had the idea of a third gender, which goes to show you a binary idea of gender is not a universal one. What if the Qun has stuff built into it that allows the "mothers" or whatever to assign a person to a different gender? Those traits I listed are not all good for a farmer - a big, strong, ruthless, fearless female would probably be wasted on the farm, the Qunari need warm bodies for their war, so they might need to take the occasional female-turned-male. It can be spun to be consistent with the Qun.

I actually like them and I'm an anxious feminist. They treat people strictly but with care. No poverty, no hatred, no mistreatment unless you fight the Qun. Sexes, races prolly too, have different roles but they are equal. Qunari are ultimately racist, sexist and prolly ethnicist but they also fair. It is fascinating

So far everything we knew about the qunari demonstrated that their society is strictly gender binary. All the lore emphasisez men and women, their roles and responsabilities, differences. Even Krem identifies as a man, not woman or the third one. Heck, IB never states that qunari accept such people only that he does

A farmer needs to be bulky. Ruthlesness fits a benhassrath. Exceptional cases usually are still put in the the same branch but find their own unique place: cunning men become benhassrath or maybe strategy planner. Or maybe they study war as a scientists. A strong woman becomes a farmer or a spy. Etc
Systems like qunari's use biological aspects and differences between sexes, races and ethnicities. Also heritage. It is like advanced pokemon battle - where every pokemon species have a specific role and rarely anyone does sth new. Or animal breeding. Choice is hardly an option, efficency prevails

Though it wouldn't be the first time a retcon happened with threw all the efficency concept out of a window. They can build dreadnaughts but go into battle halfnaked despite what codex and Sten said to us. They also don't even have a word for their own race. Next time they'll probably declare that if a mage doesn't want to be a mage he/she will not be treated as such. DA lore and lore consistency don't mix, apparently

[Zandilar]

I actually like them and I'm an anxious feminist. They treat people strictly but with care. No poverty, no hatred, no mistreatment unless you fight the Qun. Sexes, races prolly too, have different roles but they are equal. Qunari are ultimately racist, sexist and prolly ethnicist but they also fair. It is fascinating

So far everything we knew about the qunari demonstrated that their society is strictly gender binary. All the lore emphasisez men and women, their roles and responsabilities, differences. Even Krem identifies as a man, not woman or the third one. Heck, IB never states that qunari accept such people only that he does

A farmer needs to be bulky. Ruthlesness fits a benhassrath. Exceptional cases usually are still put in the the same branch but find their own unique place: cunning men become benhassrath or maybe strategy planner. Or maybe they study war as a scientists. A strong woman becomes a farmer or a spy. Etc
Systems like qunari's use biological aspects and differences between sexes, races and ethnicities. Also heritage. It is like advanced pokemon battle - where every pokemon species have a specific role and rarely anyone does sth new. Or animal breeding. Choice is hardly an option, efficency prevails

Though it wouldn't be the first time a retcon happened with threw all the efficency concept out of a window. They can build dreadnaughts but go into battle halfnaked despite what codex and Sten said to us. They also don't even have a word for their own race. Next time they'll probably declare that if a mage doesn't want to be a mage he/she will not be treated as such. DA lore and lore consistency don't mix, apparently

 

How can they be fair when they're prejudiced/biased against certain races, sexes, and cultures? How can they be fair when they want to conquer the world and convert all to the Qun at sword point? How can they be fair when there's no choice in their society - you're born, you're assigned to a caste/job, and you're expected to toe the line forever or you're cast out? I'm sorry, but I don't buy them being "fair". (And don't get me started in their "breeding" program...)

 

Well, just on Krem. Krem isn't actually a follower of the Qun, and isn't governed by their laws. I don't see how this is a retcon, except, perhaps, in Iron Bull's acceptance of him... And I think that's very much an Iron Bull thing, not a Qunari thing... We don't know how the Qunari treat their transgender citizens - they might be prejudiced and bigoted, Iron Bull is presented in the game as an exception.

 

As for the rest, I'm basically throwing ideas out there for reasons why transgender people might fit within Qun society.  (Oh, and they do have a word for their own race - Kossith. They just don't use it.)

[staindgrey]

How can they be fair when they're prejudiced/biased against certain races, sexes, and cultures? How can they be fair when they want to conquer the world and convert all to the Qun at sword point? How can they be fair when there's no choice in their society - you're born, you're assigned to a caste/job, and you're expected to toe the line forever or you're cast out? I'm sorry, but I don't buy them being "fair". (And don't get me started in their "breeding" program...)

You're misusing the word "fair".

 

If someone gives everyone a choice, that's being fair. If someone withholds that choice from everyone, that's also fair. The key word is "everyone".

 

By most accounts, the Qun makes very few exceptions. Things are the way they are. They're efficient. They run like a well oiled machine. By comparison, the freedom the South enjoys leads to constant civil war, unfair differences based on wealth and race, etc. Do you think Anders would have been able to blow up the second most important building in the city if the Qun were in charge of Kirkwall?

 

I understand your meaning. It's a difference of ideologies, reminiscent of captialism vs. communism in the modern world, and neither works perfectly. But to be clear, the Qun is objectively fairer than the Chantry if for no other reason than the idea that every person has a purpose. That's more than the alienages get.

[Chari]

How can they be fair when they're prejudiced/biased against certain races, sexes, and cultures? How can they be fair when they want to conquer the world and convert all to the Qun at sword point? How can they be fair when there's no choice in their society - you're born, you're assigned to a caste/job, and you're expected to toe the line forever or you're cast out? I'm sorry, but I don't buy them being "fair". (And don't get me started in their "breeding" program...)

Well, just on Krem. Krem isn't actually a follower of the Qun, and isn't governed by their laws. I don't see how this is a retcon, except, perhaps, in Iron Bull's acceptance of him... And I think that's very much an Iron Bull thing, not a Qunari thing... We don't know how the Qunari treat their transgender citizens - they might be prejudiced and bigoted, Iron Bull is presented in the game as an exception.

As for the rest, I'm basically throwing ideas out there for reasons why transgender people might fit within Qun society. (Oh, and they do have a word for their own race - Kossith. They just don't use it.)

They are fair because they treat people equally. Yes, a woman won't fight, a man won't paint. But neither gets treated better or worse due to that. A smith is just as important as a soldier. Sten said they pitied a crow who thought that only some people were important. That is inspiring. Antaam is body, priesthood is soul, craftwomen is mind. And all are equally important even if they play different roles. No rich, no poor. What good freedom does if a servant elf gets beaten up by a master, a farmer has to send all the yield to a lazy landlord, an orphan starves in the street
It is not an easy life. Not really happy too. But it is a life with purpose, certainty and stability. Many people can only dream of these

Probably. I think that is why he didn't actually said that qunari would accept Krem but rather that he accepts the young man

[Vanth]

I found the whole topic dreadfully forced. But I feel that way about the romances in general, not just the non-hetero ones. 

 

I suspect that is just poor writing though.

[staindgrey]

I found the whole topic dreadfully forced. But I feel that way about the romances in general, not just the non-hetero ones. 

 

I suspect that is just poor writing though.

Which topic? Like... all of it? The thread's referring to a number of separate topics listed at separate parts of the game.

 

Out of curiosity, do you feel the same way about romance in other media? Like TV, movies or books?

[Ailith Tycane]

It's a fantasy setting, so no. 

[SpiritMuse]

They are fair because they treat people equally. Yes, a woman won't fight, a man won't paint. But neither gets treated better or worse due to that. A smith is just as important as a soldier. Sten said they pitied a crow who thought that only some people were important. That is inspiring. Antaam is body, priesthood is soul, craftwomen is mind. And all are equally important even if they play different roles. No rich, no poor. What good freedom does if a servant elf gets beaten up by a master, a farmer has to send all the yield to a lazy landlord, an orphan starves in the street
It is not an easy life. Not really happy too. But it is a life with purpose, certainty and stability. Many people can only dream of these
Probably. I think that is why he didn't actually said that qunari would accept Krem but rather that he accepts the young man

Even the Saarebas are respected in their own way, even as they are bound and gagged, because they are seen as fighting the most virtuous battle possible - the fight against oneself. When you escort the Saarebas in DA2, the Arvaarad you meet does not insult or belittle him. This makes me think that their issue with foreign mages is not so much the fact that they are mages, but that they are (in their eyes) not doing enough to protect others from the evil within themselves.

I think Aqun-Athlok would be accepted throughout Qunari society. From the way Iron Bull talks about it, I don't get the sense that Krem would be hated or reviled for being what he is. With all of Iron Bull's openness and straightforwardness, I'm sure he would have mentioned a detail like that.

I also do not consider any of this anachronistic. Thedas is not part of our history. What is considered old fashioned and modern here doesn't have any bearing on there.

[Zandilar]

You're misusing the word "fair".

 

If someone gives everyone a choice, that's being fair. If someone withholds that choice from everyone, that's also fair. The key word is "everyone".

 

By most accounts, the Qun makes very few exceptions. Things are the way they are. They're efficient. They run like a well oiled machine. By comparison, the freedom the South enjoys leads to constant civil war, unfair differences based on wealth and race, etc. Do you think Anders would have been able to blow up the second most important building in the city if the Qun were in charge of Kirkwall?

 

I understand your meaning. It's a difference of ideologies, reminiscent of captialism vs. communism in the modern world, and neither works perfectly. But to be clear, the Qun is objectively fairer than the Chantry if for no other reason than the idea that every person has a purpose. That's more than the alienages get.

 

"Fair" means treating people equally without favouritism or discrimination... And the very definition of the Qun treats people differently depending on what one or some Qunari think an individual is capable of... favouring their own race over others, favouring one gender over others in certain roles... I could go on.

 

I never mentioned the Chantry, because it isn't a good comparison - you can't say the Qun is fair, but the Chantry is not... when the Chantry does pretty much the same thing (except without sewing lips together and binding them in chains) to mages (they just confine them to towers under guard, with a vial of their blood to keep track of them if they escape), for pretty much the same reasons. And then there's only female priests in Orlais et al/only male priests in Tevinter... which is something that the Qun does too... Discrimination on the basis of gender... ie: no female warriors, no male painters... (And note, in my definition of fair, the word discrimination - Qun society is not fair because it uses various attributes as the basis of discrimination - ie: gender, race, culture, religion.)

 

Anyway, as for your Anders comment... there's always going to be rebels and outliers in any society, some of whom will invariably be violent (whether that is justified or not)... SOMEONE would have blown up the Not Chantry of the Qun... then probably been killed for it.

[Chari]

Even the Saarebas are respected in their own way, even as they are bound and gagged, because they are seen as fighting the most virtuous battle possible - the fight against oneself. When you escort the Saarebas in DA2, the Arvaarad you meet does not insult or belittle him. This makes me think that their issue with foreign mages is not so much the fact that they are mages, but that they are (in their eyes) not doing enough to protect others from the evil within themselves.

I think Aqun-Athlok would be accepted throughout Qunari society. From the way Iron Bull talks about it, I don't get the sense that Krem would be hated or reviled for being what he is. With all of Iron Bull's openness and straightforwardness, I'm sure he would have mentioned a detail like that.

I also do not consider any of this anachronistic. Thedas is not part of our history. What is considered old fashioned and modern here doesn't have any bearing on there.

I doubt so. Makes little sense beyond giving representation. One does not choose what or who to be in their society if pre-DAI info is to be believed. It is not a society in which one goes "I don't like being this" unless they like some qamek in their tea. Plus IB is an atypical qunari and according to his collegue benhassrath are already irritated by half of stuff he does

Eh, sad as it is discrimination is a natural trait of all species. That's just how psyche and society is. Begins with slavery and later evolves into a better more progressive state. So though Thedas is obviously not Europe it is far from the liberal modern world. They haven't reached such a stage of civilisation yet

[Elite Midget]

For Bull, him not always following the Qun is kind of the point. He's a member of their society, but he doesn't exactly adhere to their policy.

 

For Dorian, his father's problems only arise due to his Tevinter heritage. Everywhere else in Thedas, sexual orientation is of little virtue. If he were Fereldan or from the Free Marches, I doubt anyone in his family would care nearly as much, if at all (outside regular homophobia).

If he was a Noble than being Gay would be like a death sentence as Nobles get a lot of power through marriage alliances and there's a strong desire to sire children.

[SpiritMuse]

I doubt so. Makes little sense beyond giving representation. One does not choose what or who to be in their society if pre-DAI info is to be believed. It is not a society in which one goes "I don't like being this" unless they like some qamek in their tea. Plus IB is an atypical qunari and according to his collegue benhassrath are already irritated by half of stuff he does
Eh, sad as it is discrimination is a natural trait of all species. That's just how psyche and society is. Begins with slavery and later evolves into a better more progressive state. So though Thedas is obviously not Europe it is far from the liberal modern world. They haven't reached such a stage of civilisation yet

From what I understood the Tamassran decide what you will be based on who you are and what your interests and talents are. It would make little sense, for instance, to assign someone as a baker if they were terrible at it. It stands to reason that they would assign someone to be Aqun-Athlok if they were so inclined. I would imagine it is rare, though.

[Chari]

From what I understood the Tamassran decide what you will be based on who you are and what your interests and talents are. It would make little sense, for instance, to assign someone as a baker if they were terrible at it. It stands to reason that they would assign someone to be Aqun-Athlok if they were so inclined. I would imagine it is rare, though.

Hence personal choice has little role. More like they will make you a baker if you are good at this even if you hate bread
Plus what is aqun-athlok? What kind of a profession is it? What requirements does it have? If it was an actual job then it would be available to few people since desire to change one's identity do not always depend on physical and mental abilities. And their jobs are quite specific in nature. Maybe it's not a profession name but a more general term
Also, female and male aqunathlok probably would have different titles and roles
I doubt that is a commonly accepted thing. Prolly like a basalitan - for very exceptional people

[Former_Fiend]

This reminds me how a few months ago, Paizo, the publishers of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, came out with a new batch of classes and iconic characters for those classes(characters meant to represent those classes in artwork and fiction), and one of the new iconics was a mtf dwarf transexual by the name of Sharda Geltl. The character was concieved and written by a trans contributor for paizo by the name of Crystal Fraiser.

 

There was a mixed, though over all positive, reaction to this, but one thing that was near universal is that people were surprised they went with dwarf because that was about the last race anyone expected would be used to represent a trans individual. Crystal explained that she decided to go with dwarf because while dwarves are always described as an extremely traditional race, they never really went into detail about just what those traditions were, so she - with the full blessing and backing of Paizo's creative leads - created the tradition of rivethun; "dwarves who drew great power by embracing the disjunction between their bodies and souls".

 

Likewise, Bioware's taken what is perhaps the least likely culture in Thedas to embrace the concept of transexualism and given them a tradition to justify it. 

 

Personally I consider the qunari acceptance of the idea to make good sense when one takes into account the way they distinguish body from soul. It adds a different layer to their society, giving them some more depth, and it puts Sten's comments back in DAO towards a female warden in a different light.

[Bann Duncan]

Someday we'll find out that the Jade Empire lies far to the east.

 

 

Dorian is South Asian (Indian), so yes. If you mean East Asian, no, not yet. But we have been limited to a single continent so far.

 

Um, what? No, he isn't.

[Chari]

Considering that the whole difference between women and men, races and ethnicities roles depend on biology I say that makes little sense. I am not talking just about traditions - different cultures have different traditions anyway - but practical use of biological differences along with genetic heritage and personal unique abilities. Heck, racism, sexism etcism do not exist because people are assholes, but because that's how we evolved to be. How species adapt for the sake of survival. People are our main resources, socities like qunari simply realize it
If they cared only about the soul then gender, race roles wouldn't exist in the first place. They definitelly do though, and as Sten said - one doesn't choose to be an elf or human, to have big or small limbs, to have red or black hair colour, to be smart or not. One just is. No choice

[Moondoggie]

 

4.)  Sera's sexuality - I think it's kind of awesome that she's not a walking "I'm a big ol' lesbian" billboard.  The LGBT themes are already pretty prominent in some of the character's arcs, so it's nice to have an LGBT character who doesn't make a big deal about her sexuality.  She's a lesbian.  She digs big ol' strapping gals like qunari and that's about that.  I think it's realistic to have LGBT characters whose sexualities plays a big role in their personal stories.  And I think it's equally realistic to have LGBT characters whose sexualities don't play a big role in their personal stories.

 

I actually think they did a really commendable job with LGBT issues in this game.  It's all done with respect and the LGBT characters are all well-developed characters who happen to be LGBT, not LGBT characters who happen to be in the game.  I like it and I a proud fan of Bioware right now because of it.

I think it's important to have characters like this because it reflects life. Not everyone who is gay or lesbian see it as a big huge part of their life and identity and some use it more as an identity and go out their way to remind everyone that they are gay. Many just live out their lives and only discuss topics in a friendly banter sort of way. Like with Sera her personality has her wanting to judge people as people through their character and actions so it makes sense that she doesn't blurt out that she's a lesbian before you even get to know her. She'll eventually in banter such as with Iron Bull discuss women that they saw on their travels and Qunari women and what they are like. It feels more natural that way for her while with others you can get more out and proud types who will happily tell you all the details of their sexuality.

It's quite normal to be a lesbian who doesn't let her life be defined by which gender she prefers.