80 réponses à ce sujet

[SpiritMuse]

Hence personal choice has little role. More like they will make you a baker if you are good at this even if you hate bread
Plus what is aqun-athlok? What kind of a profession is it? What requirements does it have? If it was an actual job then it would be available to few people since desire to change one's identity do not always depend on physical and mental abilities. And their jobs are quite specific in nature. Maybe it's not a profession name but a more general term
Also, female and male aqunathlok probably would have different titles and roles
I doubt that is a commonly accepted thing. Prolly like a basalitan - for very exceptional people

 

Sorry, I may have been unclear. Aqun-Athlok is just the Qunari word for transgender, it literally means "a person who is born one gender but lives as another". So Aqun-Athlok could have any job normally reserved for the other gender, since they are for all intents and purposes considered the other gender. A female-to-male Aqun-Athlok might, for instance, be a soldier - a job that women can't have but the Aqun-Athlok can because he is considered male.

 

And I have no doubt that it is quite rare, but it seems it is accepted by the Qun if it does happen.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Hence personal choice has little role. More like they will make you a baker if you are good at this even if you hate bread
Plus what is aqun-athlok? What kind of a profession is it? What requirements does it have? If it was an actual job then it would be available to few people since desire to change one's identity do not always depend on physical and mental abilities. And their jobs are quite specific in nature. Maybe it's not a profession name but a more general term
Also, female and male aqunathlok probably would have different titles and roles
I doubt that is a commonly accepted thing. Prolly like a basalitan - for very exceptional people

Chances are that if you hate bread, then you aren't a very good baker. You make it sound like the Tamassrans would purposefully try to assign all the Qunari roles in which they would be miserable, which is simply not the case.

 

The Tamassrans evaluate and observe the imekari (children) and once they reach 12 years of age, assign them their role in which they would flourish and thrive. Sten was for instance observed to be an exceptional soldier, and so he was assigned to the Antaam, whereas Bull also was an exceptional soldier, he also had an aptitude for lying, and thus was assigned to the Ben-Hassrath.

 

Aqun-athlok are literally treated as the opposite of their biological gender. A woman who exhibits all the same aptitudes and qualities of a soldier, will be considered a man in spirit, in the eyes of the Qunari.

[Chari]

Sorry, I may have been unclear. Aqun-Athlok is just the Qunari word for transgender, it literally means "a person who is born one gender but lives as another". So Aqun-Athlok could have any job normally reserved for the other gender, since they are for all intents and purposes considered the other gender. A female-to-male Aqun-Athlok might, for instance, be a soldier - a job that women can't have but the Aqun-Athlok can because he is considered male.

 

And I have no doubt that it is quite rare, but it seems it is accepted by the Qun if it does happen.

Yeah. Very likely. Like basalit-an, it seems. Granted I still doubt it is easily accepted without doubt and social pressure. Probably needs to prove to tamassrans through lots of tests and medititation and stuff

 

Geez. I guess I feel too strongly about the case. Still, in my opinion if this is a common and accepted concept among qunari their whole roles system is pointless. Rules which can be easily destroyed mean nothing. If people can easily just go and demand a different role because they don't feel comfortable in the one they have then qunari police fails. A lot. Plus, their practive of efficent non-abusive sexism and racism (a belief that a certain sex or race is better than another at sth, not hatred) is also pointless, not working, not practical. Also, I really wish the DA lore was consistent at least for once

[daveliam]

Still, in my opinion if this is a common and accepted concept among qunari their whole roles system is pointless.

 

I think that this is kind of the point.  It's not common, but also not unheard of.  Plus, remember that Bull is a fairly progressive Qunari.  His view is probably not representational of more conservative Qunari viewpoints. 

 

Think of it this way, if someone from another planet were asking me about gender, I'd describe transgender people and it would sound like it's not a big deal.  I have transgender friends (more than one), so it's really not a big deal to me.  My personal view on it would flavor the way it's presented.  It could be interpreted that transgender people are readily and widely accepted and it's not a big deal in America.  That's not the case, but it could appear that way because of my personal attitude towards it. 

 

I think that this might be what's happening here.  It's not a big deal to Bull, so he presents it that way and doesn't give it a second thought.  If we had asked the Arishok in DA 2, I suspect that his view on it would be different. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Of course it isn't common. How common is it in our world? Not very. So it stands to reason that it would be even less common in Thedas, given their lower population.

[Chari]

I think that this is kind of the point.  It's not common, but also not unheard of.  Plus, remember that Bull is a fairly progressive Qunari.  His view is probably not representational of more conservative Qunari viewpoints. 

 

Think of it this way, if someone from another planet were asking me about gender, I'd describe transgender people and it would sound like it's not a big deal.  I have transgender friends (more than one), so it's really not a big deal to me.  My personal view on it would flavor the way it's presented.  It could be interpreted that transgender people are readily and widely accepted and it's not a big deal in America.  That's not the case, but it could appear that way because of my personal attitude towards it. 

 

I think that this might be what's happening here.  It's not a big deal to Bull, so he presents it that way and doesn't give it a second thought.  If we had asked the Arishok in DA 2, I suspect that his view on it would be different. 

Eh, that's what I think too. Bull is just a really good guy. More accepting than any qunari we have met

To make a culture welcoming transgender folk with ease... qunari are a weird choice, if that's the case. Also dwarves and probably modern elves due to their reproduction crisis. Maybe some tribes from Rivain? Or tal-vashoth, who deny the Qun and its strictness completelly and want to choose on their own who and what they are? Circle mages, also, since they don't need to think about children at all and beyond templar and Chantry supervision meet no social judgement or responsability. Ancient elves? Fog Warriors? There are many posibilities. I'd like Bioware to dive into the concept of transsexuality, that's an interesting one. Plenty of cultures to pick from

[Former_Fiend]

Qunari are a weird choice, but I don't believe they're an inappropriate one. If anything, I think the qunari opposition to the concept of choice actually works in their favor on this; being transgender isn't a choice any more than being straight or gay is. Qunari want you to be what you are. If you're a man, they want you to be a man, regardless of what is and isn't between your legs.

[Chari]

Qunari are a weird choice, but I don't believe they're an inappropriate one. If anything, I think the qunari opposition to the concept of choice actually works in their favor on this; being transgender isn't a choice any more than being straight or gay is. Qunari want you to be what you are. If you're a man, they want you to be a man, regardless of what is and isn't between your legs.

But they also stated that if a person has abilties unusual for her or his sex they just find a special place for them or send them to priesthood (and even there almost no profession is shared by both sexes). I guess they might have changed their lore. It's theirs after all

[EmperorSahlertz]

But they also stated that if a person has abilties unusual for her or his sex they just find a special place for them or send them to priesthood (and even there almost no profession is shared by both sexes). I guess they might have changed their lore. It's theirs after all

Not changed it at all... If the female Qunari still identifies as a female, then she cannot become a soldier, but will be sent to one of the combat oriented roles in the Ben-Hassrath most likely.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Someday we'll find out that the Jade Empire lies far to the east.

 

 

 

Um, what? No, he isn't.

http://dgaider.tumbl...-but-ive-seen-a

http://forum.bioware...8#entry16855319

[Chari]

Not changed it at all... If the female Qunari still identifies as a female, then she cannot become a soldier, but will be sent to one of the combat oriented roles in the Ben-Hassrath most likely.

Based on what Sten said, qunari just accept their physical traits and overall abilities. Struggle is illusion and yadayada. He pretty much said that if you're dumb, you're dumb, if you're redhead, you're redhead, if your hands are big, they're not small, if you're an elf your pointy ears and small body won't go away just because you want it. Include the fact that tamassran decide what a qunari becomes - in the end choice is not an option. Doesn't mean the interest isn't important but the folk who don't like their role go to reeducation camp with drugs and psychological tinkering and everything included

[Bann Duncan]

http://dgaider.tumbl...-but-ive-seen-a

http://forum.bioware...8#entry16855319

 

Gaider simply said that he's not white and that he is meant to have a swarthy skin tone and Epler used Indian as an analogue for that skin tone, but neither suggested that Tevinter is meant to be some stand-in for India.

[Former_Fiend]

Based on what Sten said, qunari just accept their physical traits and overall abilities. Struggle is illusion and yadayada. He pretty much said that if you're dumb, you're dumb, if you're redhead, you're redhead, if your hands are big, they're not small, if you're an elf your pointy ears and small body won't go away just because you want it. Include the fact that tamassran decide what a qunari becomes - in the end choice is not an option. Doesn't mean the interest isn't important but the folk who don't like their role go to reeducation camp with drugs and psychological tinkering and everything included

 

That's not necessarily a retcon. That's Sten being bad at explaining things. Sten's a taciturn fellow speaking a language he barely knows, having little grasp of their culture, trying to convey some complex ideas. That he did as good a job as he did is impressive, but he's as fallible as anyone else in universe.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That's not necessarily a retcon. That's Sten being bad at explaining things. Sten's a taciturn fellow speaking a language he barely knows, having little grasp of their culture, trying to convey some complex ideas. That he did as good a job as he did is impressive, but he's as fallible as anyone else in universe.

And he is from the Antaam, which are notoriously close/single-minded according to Bull.

[Katallina]

The only thing I might agree with you on is the use of the term safeword for BDSM. However, I'm pretty sure that was unavoidable if they wanted to explore it in any way, joking or not.

 

As others have said, your arguement falls apart under the fact that while there are humans in the game, the game is not set on Earth and does not reflect any Earthern political system or ideology. 

 

What you have identified and discussed well, however, is the challenge that fantasy writers face: how to tell stories in worlds that are different than our own, and that have different ideas than our own, to people who already have pre-existing ideals. My father once told me, when we were discussing my own writing, that I could essentially put anything in there that I want, but that I have to realize that people are going to find some way, any way, to make what I am talking about "real" for them. They need a way to relate to what they are reading.

 

Therefore, two things come into play when addressing the realism of a world (from a writer) and the suspension of disbelief needed (from a reader or gamer):

 

1. The writer's job is what I described above. They need to be conscious of the connections people will make, and make difficult calls about whether they are willing to live with those connections. (i.e. choosing to use "safeword")

 

2. The reader in a non-Earth fantasy must recognize that they cannot hold the characters of that world accountable to Earth human cultural standards from any one time or place. It's extremely common to think "Gee, X sounds like it came from Y culture." But that does not lock the rules of the writer's world into that culture or ideal. (In fact, it should do the opposite in good writing--otherwise, why not be in that place to begin with?) 

 

At any rate, this has been a very interesting discussion. While I don't agree with most of your points, they were very well thought out. 

[Chari]

That's not necessarily a retcon. That's Sten being bad at explaining things. Sten's a taciturn fellow speaking a language he barely knows, having little grasp of their culture, trying to convey some complex ideas. That he did as good a job as he did is impressive, but he's as fallible as anyone else in universe.

He knew the language well enough to make sarcastic jokes and poke fun at those who annoy him. Heck, based on my experience in language studies I wouldn't say that he is bad. He is actually pretty good at language. Probably B2. Granted it might be because they just didn't do a good job at making him "bad" at the trade language

Plus as I recall that dialogue the sentences he used were simple with clear predicates and nouns and everything. So I don't believe he made a mistake in the dialogue when he explain that people don't choose what to be. In others - yes. That one... was not a mistake

[Former_Fiend]

He knew the language well enough to make sarcastic jokes and poke fun at those who annoy him. Heck, based on my experience in language studies I wouldn't say that he is bad. He is actually pretty good at language. Probably B2. Granted it might be because they just didn't do a good job at making him "bad" at the trade language

Plus as I recall that dialogue the sentences he used were simple with clear predicates and nouns and everything. So I don't believe he made a mistake in the dialogue when he explain that people don't choose what to be. In others - yes. That one... was not a mistake

 

 

A few of his bits of dialogue relate to him not being satisfied with his grasp over the language. When you ask him if Ferelden seems strange, the language is one of the main things he brings up in his complaining. He doesn't know what "flirting" is and assumes "parents" is a made up word. He thinks a song Leliana's singing about young lovers is about vegetables. 

 

He does have a good grasp on the language, but not a perfect one. 

[Killdren88]

Honestly I felt like I was watching a PSA commercial. It all felt forced when I came across these scenes,

[Chari]

A few of his bits of dialogue relate to him not being satisfied with his grasp over the language. When you ask him if Ferelden seems strange, the language is one of the main things he brings up in his complaining. He doesn't know what "flirting" is and assumes "parents" is a made up word. He thinks a song Leliana's singing about young lovers is about vegetables. 

 

He does have a good grasp on the language, but not a perfect one. 

I'm between B2 and A1 and most people say I have a good grasp of English. Except my teachers of course. One can never be good enough at translation, languages change all the time, it's frankly impossible

Considering that the qunari don't flirt and have no parents no surprise they are not told about such things. I'm A1 and my vocabulary is not the best compared to the native speakers. "Realities" may differ, but things which nations share often are present in both languages and can be translated directly without use of lexical transformations

The thing is - in that sentence he used words meaning of which he obviously understood, every race shared (hands, haircolour, intelligence etc) and the sentences' structure also signaled that he knew what he was saying. His sentences didn't have much abstractiveness, no "folded" semes etc. No place for a mistake

[Former_Fiend]

I'm between B2 and A1 and most people say I have a good grasp of English. Except my teachers of course. One can never be good enough at translation, languages change all the time, it's frankly impossible

Considering that the qunari don't flirt and have no parents no surprise they are not told about such things. I'm A1 and my vocabulary is not the best compared to the native speakers. "Realities" may differ, but things which nations share often are present in both languages and can be translated directly without use of lexical transformations

The thing is - in that sentence he used words meaning of which he obviously understood, every race shared (hands, haircolour, intelligence etc) and the sentences' structure also signaled that he knew what he was saying. His sentences didn't have much abstractiveness, no "folded" semes etc. No place for a mistake

 

I honestly think you may be over-analyzing this. 

[Chari]

I honestly think you may be over-analyzing this. 

I honestly think that he meant what he said

He didn't understand words like "flirt" and "parents" because they do not exist (anymore) in qunlat because there are no such "realities" an actual linguistic term though in English it is actually called culture-bound concept/item/term

That dialogue though. He pretty much knew what he was saying and how to say that

[garrusfan1]

Is iron bulls Thing for both male and female inquisitors or does it change

[EmperorSahlertz]

Is iron bulls Thing for both male and female inquisitors or does it change

I think Iron Bulls "thing" is for anything with a pulse to be honest.

[garrusfan1]

I think Iron Bulls "thing" is for anything with a pulse to be honest.

I mean his dominance thing.

[Former_Fiend]

I mean his dominance thing.

 

Bull's the dom regardless of the inquisitor's gender, yes.