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[PsychoticFox]

At this point. I think any normal person or human being with a heart would find what Sera did to the Inquisitor's unacceptable, petty and vile. 

Good thing I don't fall into the category of "normal" then. Or "human being with a heart".

 

I think of it like this: Someone got a phrase in a language that they don't know tattooed on their face. They're told it says "Peace Hope Love" or some popular positive phrase that people get tattooed on their body. Somewhere down the line, they come into the knowledge that it actually says something like "fart nugget asswagon". They then go and pour their sorrows out onto the one person they know who has an absolute disdain of people who get crap tattooed on them that they don't even understand. And the person they just poured their heart out to laughs. Because their ideology was just confirmed in a bout of glorious irony.

[Korusus]

Sera was the most intriguing and unique companion in my opinion.  I think that's why a lot of people don't seem to like her (on top of her being a ******).  You can't classify her, she's not a trope or a cliche.  Bull is another one I like for the same reason.  I think most people's expectations for what these two characters would be like ended up being completely wrong.

 

Sera: Naive, nature oriented elven archer

Bull:  Stoic Sten 2.0

 

Turns out they are nothing like that.  I don't think any other companions defy preconceived notions quite as well as these two do.

[robertthebard]

You haven't even seen the full dialogue regarding to that scene do you?
 
And suddenly how am I going against people that asked "Why are you surprised?"

So you agree with me then, that people that are surprised that Sera stayed Sera after the reveals aren't exactly thinking straight? If not, why are you surprised? People are mad that they couldn't remake her in their image, just like they were mad that they couldn't remake Morrigan in their image in Origins. I was here for that too, with all the "But I romanced her, she should have stayed even if I didn't do the DR" threads. In the end, that's what it boils down to, she stayed true to who she was, and what she believed, and people are mad that they couldn't change her.

[Rifneno]

So you agree with me then, that people that are surprised that Sera stayed Sera after the reveals aren't exactly thinking straight? If not, why are you surprised? People are mad that they couldn't remake her in their image, just like they were mad that they couldn't remake Morrigan in their image in Origins. I was here for that too, with all the "But I romanced her, she should have stayed even if I didn't do the DR" threads. In the end, that's what it boils down to, she stayed true to who she was, and what she believed, and people are mad that they couldn't change her.

There is a difference between one's personality changing and them gaining some maturity. It's not too much to ask that she stops making fart noises in the middle of serious situations.

[Xilizhra]

So you agree with me then, that people that are surprised that Sera stayed Sera after the reveals aren't exactly thinking straight? If not, why are you surprised? People are mad that they couldn't remake her in their image, just like they were mad that they couldn't remake Morrigan in their image in Origins. I was here for that too, with all the "But I romanced her, she should have stayed even if I didn't do the DR" threads. In the end, that's what it boils down to, she stayed true to who she was, and what she believed, and people are mad that they couldn't change her.

Well, we're mad because what she is is utterly terrible.

 

Good thing I don't fall into the category of "normal" then. Or "human being with a heart".

 

I think of it like this: Someone got a phrase in a language that they don't know tattooed on their face. They're told it says "Peace Hope Love" or some popular positive phrase that people get tattooed on their body. Somewhere down the line, they come into the knowledge that it actually says something like "fart nugget asswagon". They then go and pour their sorrows out onto the one person they know who has an absolute disdain of people who get crap tattooed on them that they don't even understand. And the person they just poured their heart out to laughs. Because their ideology was just confirmed in a bout of glorious irony.

I don't think you quite get how Dalish culture works if you think it's just a tattoo. It's a bit like a devout Catholic somehow hypothetically learning that the Eucharist is actually demonic spiritual poison.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

and people are mad that they couldn't change her.

Seriously? Do I have to spell it for you? People are mad because Sera is utterly horrible person. People are mad that Sera kicking the Inquisitor while she's down instead of comforting her. People are mad because Sera doesn't care about her friendship with the Inquisitor at all, in fact all she is caring about is "I was right all along". It doesn't have anything to do with Sera stay true to her character, but if that is her character then she's pretty much what OP called her. 

[PsychoticFox]

I don't think you quite get how Dalish culture works if you think it's just a tattoo. It's a bit like a devout Catholic somehow hypothetically learning that the Eucharist is actually demonic spiritual poison.

It was the closest plausible real-world example that I could think of.

 

And... I'd be amused by that hypothetical. Those funny little crackers taste awful.

[robertthebard]

Seriously? Do I have to spell it for you? People are mad because Sera is utterly horrible person. People are mad that Sera kicking the Inquisitor while she's down instead of comforting her. People are mad because Sera doesn't care about her friendship with the Inquisitor at all, in fact all she is caring about is "I was right all along". It doesn't have anything to do with Sera stay true to her character, but if that is her character then she's pretty much what OP called her.

I evidently have to spell it out for you: It has everything to do with Sera staying true to her character. Is this the first time that you ever heard her express her disdain for Elven culture? So, in your game, up until this point, she's been all "I love the elves, and when can I get my face tattooed?"? If not, why are you surprised? How many times did you find her in Solas's room trying to learn more about their shared history? It never happened in my game. So why are you surprised?

[Ap0crypha]

Sera actually asked about the vallaslin, implying that she cared about the Inquisitor enough to notice when something that important to them goes missing. So it's not inconceivable for the Inquisitor to think she'd want to listen like a good friend and support them like a good friend. Was this dumb, considering Sera's feelings on Solas and the Dalish? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

Whether the Inquisitor is stupid or not for in confiding in her, however, isn't the point. The point is she did, and Sera reacted in an abhorrent way, to someone who is supposed to be her friend. That is what has people so upset and disgusted.

 

Yes, Sera hates the Dalish. That is fine--everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But focusing on "the Dalish were wrong" when her friend is confessing a moment of sorrow, instead of "my heart just got broken" or "something so vital to my people is a lie", is not.  If she'd wanted to talk about it later in a calm, rational manner, that would be fine. Instead she digs it up at that moment with all the maturity of a ten-year-old.

 

(And yes, I know Sera isn't the type to speak about things calmly and rationally. I'm just using a hypothetical example.)

 

And I hardly think being upset that you got your heart broken means you're having a pity party.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

See the thing is, calling Sera a "horrible person" is purely subjective.

 

Some of us think she's a wonderful person.

 

The closest I can liken this to is, for myself being Chinese-American and having a friend who is an obsessive Asian-phile who went out and got a series of kanji character tattoos.  I'm not really impressed with the fad personally, and there's a lot of other American-born Chinese like myself, who don't let their ethnicity define who they are, in a way similar to Sera's refusal to be defined as elven.  Now the thing is, this fangirl with the kanji tattoos, thinks it's all about 'beautiful concepts' like Love, Peace, and Enlightenment, and she can't shut up talking about how she perceives Asian culture and how it 'totally relates to her', like a tattoo makes her a better person somehow.  And so when of course the tattoo is revealed to be a nonsensical combination of characters (Chinese Take-Out Menu anyone?), I laughed and laughed, and I told her it was funny and stupid.  And though she glared at first, she had to stop and eventually joined in laughing, because IT WAS FUNNY AND STUPID.

 

That's how I see the Sera scene playing out.  She's not going to blow sunshine up your bits and lie about the fact that it's stupid and funny, because you know...  breeches!'

 

Anyone who whines about Sera being a horrible person completely misses the point.  Some of us use laughter combined with harsh honesty because that's what real friends do. 

[robertthebard]

Sera actually asked about the vallaslin, implying that she cared about the Inquisitor enough to notice when something that important to them goes missing. So it's not inconceivable for the Inquisitor to think she'd want to listen like a good friend and support them like a good friend.
 
Whether the Inquisitor is stupid or not for in confiding in her, however, isn't the point. The point is she did, and Sera reacted in an abhorrent way, to someone who is supposed to be her friend. That is what has people so upset and disgusted.
 
And I hardly think being gloomy that you got your heart broken means you're having a pity party.

My Dalish will be running to Cass, or maybe Cullen. Why? Because I know how Sera feels about the "elven thing", and I won't be giving her the chance to (heh, pun intended) throw it in my face. She is an arsehole, and I know it, and I still love her, and some of that is specifically because of it. She doesn't pull punches, and tells it how she sees it, even if she's wrong, she still tells it like she sees it. Color me crazy, but I'd rather surround myself with people like that, than surround myself with "Yes Men".

[Rifneno]

See the thing is, calling Sera a "horrible person" is purely subjective.
 
Some of us think she's a wonderful person.
 
The closest I can liken this to is, for myself being Chinese-American and having a friend who is an obsessive Asian-phile who went out and got a series of kanji character tattoos.  I'm not really impressed with the fad personally, and there's a lot of other American-born Chinese like myself, who don't let their ethnicity define who they are, in a way similar to Sera's refusal to be defined as elven.  Now the thing is, this fangirl with the kanji tattoos, thinks it's all about 'beautiful concepts' like Love, Peace, and Enlightenment, and she can't shut up talking about how she perceives Asian culture and how it 'totally relates to her', like a tattoo makes her a better person somehow.  And so when of course the tattoo is revealed to be a nonsensical combination of characters (Chinese Take-Out Menu anyone?), I laughed and laughed, and I told her it was funny and stupid.  And though she glared at first, she had to stop and eventually joined in laughing, because IT WAS FUNNY AND STUPID.
 
That's how I see the Sera scene playing out.  She's not going to blow sunshine up your bits and lie about the fact that it's stupid and funny, because you know...  breeches!'
 
Anyone who whines about Sera being a horrible person completely misses the point.  Some of us use laughter combined with harsh honesty because that's what real friends do.

And yet, that story leaves out the whole "just got their heart broken" part. Which is more than slightly important.

Tell me, where's my harsh honesty when I get to call Sera an idiot for 5 minutes solid after Mythal is proven to be real and Sera is proven to be stupid?

[Xilizhra]

See the thing is, calling Sera a "horrible person" is purely subjective.

 

Some of us think she's a wonderful person.

 

The closest I can liken this to is, for myself being Chinese-American and having a friend who is an obsessive Asian-phile who went out and got a series of kanji character tattoos.  I'm not really impressed with the fad personally, and there's a lot of other American-born Chinese like myself, who don't let their ethnicity define who they are, in a way similar to Sera's refusal to be defined as elven.  Now the thing is, this fangirl with the kanji tattoos, thinks it's all about 'beautiful concepts' like Love, Peace, and Enlightenment, and she can't shut up talking about how she perceives Asian culture and how it 'totally relates to her', like a tattoo makes her a better person somehow.  And so when of course the tattoo is revealed to be a nonsensical combination of characters (Chinese Take-Out Menu anyone?), I laughed and laughed, and I told her it was funny and stupid.  And though she glared at first, she had to stop and eventually joined in laughing, because IT WAS FUNNY AND STUPID.

 

That's how I see the Sera scene playing out.  She's not going to blow sunshine up your bits and lie about the fact that it's stupid and funny, because you know...  breeches!'

 

Anyone who whines about Sera being a horrible person completely misses the point.  Some of us use laughter combined with harsh honesty because that's what real friends do. 

No. This is an extremely poor analogy because your hypothetical friend didn't have her entire culture built around the concept. It's a far worse event.

 

And Sera's biggest problem is that she tries to refuse to let the Inquisitor define herself as she sees fit, instead attacking every time the Inquisitor does something too elfy.

[Ap0crypha]

@NWN-Ming-Ming: The difference is, the vallaslin are a part of Dalish culture. Lavellan was raised to believe those were important ways of honoring their gods. Finding out they were actually slave brands would be like (to borrow an example) a Catholic learning that Eucharist is food of the devil.

 

Your friend's situation would be akin to a city elf getting vallaslin tattooed on, then learning their real definition. They'd probably laugh it off, like she did. But for someone who was raised with those markings, raised to believe they were marks of honor, it would be devastating. There's a world of difference between the two.

[robertthebard]

Bullshit. This is an extremely poor analogy because your hypothetical friend didn't have her entire culture built around the concept. It's a far worse event.
 
And Sera's biggest problem is that she tries to refuse to let the Inquisitor define herself as she sees fit, instead attacking every time the Inquisitor does something too elfy.

So your biggest problem is that she's not a "yes man", and that it sucks to be you because of it? You see, I don't need Sera to define myself. In fact, I don't need anyone to define me. I do that all by myself. Take it or leave it, like it, love it or hate it, it's all the same to me, because I'm me for the sake of being me, not for the sake of defining you. Sera in a nutshell. However, this does, yet again, beg the question that, knowing all this, you still went to her expecting comfort?

[Seraphim24]

For me Sera seems like one of the few voices of different and honest expression, although it seems to come across in a kind of excessive-overdoing it kind of way. I went and just watched the fart scene and it's like, that's an honest expression of how I can see that kind of Solas type, the point is just that you don't connect with people by talking in a language no one understands, and which is frequently just to show off. So, it was a sentiment that resonated and yet the way it was executed was  "trying too hard" at the same time. So, if you are trying to connect with a contrasting figure, it's both tempting (for the idea) and yet also feels kind of off (for how it's done), at least based on that one situation.

 

There are probably other ways of getting that character/point across, instead of farting, or whatever.  Really though, Bioware from basically the Baldur's Gate days has had trouble making contrasting characters to their super goody good Minsc/Blackwall preference, and so I can't say I expected that to change now.

 

The thing is, they're kind of one of the few that still bother trying to make them, at least here and there, in western video games... that's all I can say though because I don't know Sera's full story still.

[Rifneno]

The reveal about the tattoos is... Taarsidath-an Halsaam!

But you can find that absolutely knee-slappingly hilarious and still have some tact for a "friend" who just got their heart ripped out.

Sera is about as tactful as House, but instead of being a supergenius to make up for it, she's a complete idiot.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

It really doesn't matter what they are supposed to mean anyhow.  Culture or not, if you assign importance to them, like kanji tattoos for a fangirl, the emotion felt is no less real than if they were wafers for a Catholic.  People attach significance to things purely on their own subjective experiences.  I've known otaku and fangirls who embody more belief and self-identity into their Asian passions than many lapsed Catholic and Jew friends for their rituals.  Just because it's 'religious' doesn't make it important.

[KiwiQuiche]

So your biggest problem is that she's not a "yes man", and that it sucks to be you because of it? You see, I don't need Sera to define myself. In fact, I don't need anyone to define me. I do that all by myself. Take it or leave it, like it, love it or hate it, it's all the same to me, because I'm me for the sake of being me, not for the sake of defining you. Sera in a nutshell. However, this does, yet again, beg the question that, knowing all this, you still went to her expecting comfort?

 

Yes Man =/= being intentionally hurtful to your already upset friend by scoffing at their ignorance and making spiteful comments.

 

Oddly enough, people expect their friends to offer comfort if they go to them after having a break up, not to insult and riddicule them. Shocking, I know.

[Xilizhra]

So your biggest problem is that she's not a "yes man", and that it sucks to be you because of it? You see, I don't need Sera to define myself. In fact, I don't need anyone to define me. I do that all by myself. Take it or leave it, like it, love it or hate it, it's all the same to me, because I'm me for the sake of being me, not for the sake of defining you. Sera in a nutshell. However, this does, yet again, beg the question that, knowing all this, you still went to her expecting comfort?

Well, I didn't at all, because I didn't romance Solas, because I'm lesbian. And I don't need Sera to define myself, it just shows her as a bad person.

 

 

It really doesn't matter what they are supposed to mean anyhow.  Culture or not, if you assign importance to them, like kanji tattoos for a fangirl, the emotion felt is no less real than if they were wafers for a Catholic.  People attach significance to things purely on their own subjective experiences.  I've known otaku and fangirls who embody more belief and self-identity into their Asian passions than many lapsed Catholic and Jew friends.  Just because it's 'religious' doesn't make it important.

My point is that it's an entire cultural icon and not just an individual choice. Your analogy is utterly off-base and was used solely to make mocking it more justified.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

My point is that it's an entire cultural icon and not just an individual choice. Your analogy is utterly off-base and was used solely to make mocking it more justified.

That's your opinion.  And it's just that, opinion.  And from my perspective, Sera's behavior was already justified.  I don't need to justify it again, I was trying to communicate perspective so others could understand why I am not outraged or offended.  *shrugs*  There's no definitive benchmark here, you can't say someone is a horrible friend or bad person just because of something subjective like this. 

 

In the end, you can dislike Sera as an NPC or you can like her as an NPC.  Include her in your party or not, remember you have to go out of your way to recruit her in Val Royeaux anyhow...  skip her recruitment quest and VOILA!  Problem solved!

[robertthebard]

Yes Man =/= being intentionally hurtful to your already upset friend by scoffing at their ignorance and making spiteful comments.
 
Oddly enough, people expect their friends to offer comfort if they go to them after having a break up, not to insult and riddicule them. Shocking, I know.

You see, this is what it boils down to. Sera hates being an elf. She hates things that are too elfy. She has made this abundantly clear since you met her. Again, why are you surprised? Are you going to run to the friend that's been telling you since you started a bad relationship looking for sympathy when that bad relationship blows up? Do you actually have friends that are that honest with you? I know I do, and if I ran to them, they'd laugh and tell me how stupid I was. So tell me, if you had such a low opinion of her, why was she still in Skyhold? You can kick her out of your party any time you like, including never even recruiting her, if you didn't want to. You see, you're claiming a "moment of weakness", but I'm pointing out an entire game of it. Since you could have removed her at your whim, any time you wanted to, and didn't, you have nobody to blame for Sera's reaction to these events but yourself. If you had removed her from the party as soon as you discovered she was an arsehole, and you didn't like her, you wouldn't have had to put up with her being an arsehole when you got your heart/life broken. Instead, you kept her around, and are now here, blaming her for your inability to act.

[Rifneno]

There's no definitive benchmark here, you can't say someone is a horrible friend or bad person just because of something subjective like this.

Yes, you very much can. When you're at your lowest and a friend tries to kick you lower rather than help you up, they are a horrible excuse for a friend. That's really all there is to it. If you can't count on friends, then they're not friends, they're just people around you.

[Xilizhra]

That's your opinion.  And it's just that, opinion.  And from my perspective, Sera's behavior was already justified.  I don't need to justify it again, I was trying to communicate perspective so others could understand why I am not outraged or offended.  *shrugs*  There's no definitive benchmark here, you can't say someone is a horrible friend or bad person just because of something subjective like this.

Can, have, will.

 

 

You see, this is what it boils down to. Sera hates being an elf. She hates things that are too elfy. She has made this abundantly clear since you met her. Again, why are you surprised? Are you going to run to the friend that's been telling you since you started a bad relationship looking for sympathy when that bad relationship blows up? Do you actually have friends that are that honest with you? I know I do, and if I ran to them, they'd laugh and tell me how stupid I was. So tell me, if you had such a low opinion of her, why was she still in Skyhold? You can kick her out of your party any time you like, including never even recruiting her, if you didn't want to. You see, you're claiming a "moment of weakness", but I'm pointing out an entire game of it. Since you could have removed her at your whim, any time you wanted to, and didn't, you have nobody to blame for Sera's reaction to these events but yourself. If you had removed her from the party as soon as you discovered she was an arsehole, and you didn't like her, you wouldn't have had to put up with her being an arsehole when you got your heart/life broken. Instead, you kept her around, and are now here, blaming her for your inability to act.

Actually, no. This is all a hypothetical; it never happened to my Inquisitor because, again, I don't romance Solas. It's just a study on Sera's depravity.

 

And I'm sure as hell not making her leave the party before getting a chance to break her little mind with Mythal.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Yes, you very much can. When you're at your lowest and a friend tries to kick you lower rather than help you up, they are a horrible excuse for a friend. That's really all there is to it. If you can't count on friends, then they're not friends, they're just people around you.

And again, that's subjective opinion.  I don't want plastic fake yes-men as friends, ESPECIALLY when I am wrong about something important in my life.  What Sera does is not in my view "kicking you lower".  So your judgement is just an opinion.  It's about as meaningful as claiming the Sun will rise in the West.