1123 réponses à ce sujet

[Nathair Nimheil]

@Nathair: We weren't expecting Sera to bow-tow to our every whim, we were expecting a bit of basic human decency. You know, like her not rubbing it in that she was "right about the Dalish" while the Inquisitor is still reeling from that discovery.

Do the words "Suck it up, buttercup" resonate at all?

 

Look, I get it. Some people are delicate little flowers and want all their friends to "Oh you poor, poor thing" you whenever you get your sensitive feefees all hurty. I understand. You don't want your friend to say "I told you so." I get that you would totally not sit with Sera at lunch anymore after this. But get a grip here. Sera didn't set fire to an orphanage full of baby kittens, she just failed to stroke your hair and coddle your poor, poor wounded ego. Try to remember that you're a big brave demon hunting Inquisitior here and not the wilting protagonist from a Stephanie Meyer novel and just walk it the *** off.

 

Yes, Sera is more Lisbeth Salander than Marianne Dashwood and I am down with that. Maybe there's more than one reason you're not.

And I don't know where you pulled Morrigan from

From the post I quoted talking about Morrigan. (Quoting it was a hint.)

[Ap0crypha]

@NWN-Ming-Ming: How did my beliefs get dragged into this? When did I establish that Sera must worship the Maker, or love nature, or be pro-Templar, or eat only cheese for a year if she didn't want to get killed? I just asked for her to show some empathy, which is something every sentient being has.

 

It's basic decency to not go around murdering people.

 

It's basic decency to not taunt a starving man with food.

 

It's basic decency to not make fun of your friend when they come to you looking for a bit of comfort.

[robertthebard]

@Nathair: We weren't expecting Sera to bow-tow to our every whim, we were expecting a bit of basic human decency. You know, like her not rubbing it in that she was "right about the Dalish" while the Inquisitor is still reeling from that discovery.
 
And I don't know where you pulled Morrigan from--most people who romanced her actually enjoyed that she put her own goals above her feelings for the Warden, because it was staying true to her character and it made the story more interesting.

Try that again, and see if you can still keep a straight face. I was here, or there, for "But why did Morrigan abandon me, I romanced her, she should stay even if I don't do the DR". The fact is, if you went to Sera for comfort after being dumped by Solas, you were expecting her to bow-tow ot your whim, you know, the whim of "surely she'll change her views on 'elfy' long enough to give me a hug". She didn't, why were you surprised?

[robertthebard]

@NWN-Ming-Ming: How did my beliefs get dragged into this? When did I establish that Sera must worship the Maker, or love nature, or be pro-Templar, or eat only cheese for a year if she didn't want to get killed? I just asked for her to show some empathy, which is something every sentient being has.
 
It's basic decency to not go around murdering people.
 
It's basic decency to not taunt a starving man with food.
 
It's basic decency to not make fun of your friend when they come to you looking for a bit of comfort.

You don't see it? Seriously? I can see it. You expected her to completely change who she is and what she believes to cater to your feelings. She didn't, you're surprised. Why is that? I'll explain it to you: You're surprised because she didn't fit into your nifty little box of what your friends should be willing to do for you. You're mad because she stuck to her principles, instead of bowing down to your whims. You set yourself up for a pie in the face, got a pie in the face, and are complaining that it was pumpkin, instead of apple?

[Ap0crypha]

@Nathair: Do the words "lack of empathy" resonate at all?

 

Look, I don't know about you, but when my friends get dumped, I comfort them. I support them. That's what friends do. The Inquisitor doesn't go running to Sera every time s/he gets a boo-boo or insulted by the Chantry or hurt in any minor way. They deal with that on their own. When they can't, that's when they turn to her, their supposed friend, for support, and instead they get a face-full of mocking.

 

It would be one thing if Solas were a lyrium-dealing criminal and she told us getting involved with him was a Bad Idea, and we did, and he screwed us over with a lyrium-dealing con. Then she would be justified in saying "I told you so".

 

It's another thing if she rubs salt in the wound by saying "I knew it! Your people are a bunch of idiots!"

 

 

@robertthebard: Because I was hoping she would at least wait to celebrate her "victory" over the Dalish? Because I was hoping she valued her friend more than her own personal agenda?

 

And yes, I expected Sera to have some basic empathy. Like everyone else has. Clearly I was wrong.

[robertthebard]

@Nathair: Do the words "lack of empathy" resonate at all?
 
Look, I don't know about you, but when my friends get dumped, I comfort them. I support them. That's what friends do. The Inquisitor doesn't go running to Sera every time s/he gets a boo-boo or insulted by the Chantry or hurt in any minor way. They deal with that on their own. When they can't, that's when they turn to her, their supposed friend, for support, and instead they get a face-full of mocking.
 
It would be one thing if Solas were a lyrium-dealing criminal and she told us getting involved with him was a Bad Idea, and we did, and he screwed us over with a lyrium-dealing con. Then she would be justified in saying "I told you so".
 
It's another thing if she rubs salt in the wound by saying "I knew it! Your people are a bunch of idiots!"

So why didn't you turn to one of the friends that's likely to be more supportive of your pain? Cassandra can directly relate, with what happened to the Seekers, and what she learns about how she actually became one. There's a crapton of empathy there. Instead, you turn to the one person who is likely to do, surprise of all surprises, exactly what she did, and you're mad? There's a lack of something here, but I'm not sure what's lacking...

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

 

It's basic decency to not go around murdering people.

 

It's basic decency to not taunt a starving man with food.

 

It's basic decency to not make fun of your friend when they come to you looking for a bit of comfort.

None of those examples are absolutes.  The very concept of decency and morality are not absolutes.  Your view is flawed because your very premise of 'decency' being 'basic' and an universal absolute is flawed.  You are following a fallacy. 

 

You can state they are not what YOU consider to be decent human behavior, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if I placed you in the right situation, I could get you to willingly do all three while justifying it.  Moral behavior is abstract and amorphous, shaping itself to suit history, culture, and circumstances.  The concept of MORALITY is a societal imposition of the strong over the weak and passive, enforced in finality by societal threats of ostracizing and/or violence.  ETHICS are chosen by one's self and predicated on reasoning and personal experiences. 

 

If you want to say that Sera doesn't live up to your ethics, and is not what you consider an ethical person, that's one thing and you are entitled to that viewpoint.  If you say she's not a moral person, then I'll fight you every step of the way- because morality is a fabrication.

[Prince of Keys]

Everyone keeps saying the Inquisitor was seeking comfort from Sera. Mine sure as hell wasn't--if she wanted any kind of emotional support for absolutely anything, she would never in her life go to Sera. They have never been friends. She told the truth when Sera asked because there wasn't really much of a point in hiding it, since Sera's obnoxious enough to keep pushing for an answer anyway. Sera's response didn't endear her to me (which I expected), I accepted/realized there was no chance in hell my Inquisitor and Sera could ever be friends because Sera wasn't going to make any effort to be even halfway decent, and I moved on. It was actually kind of freeing--now that I don't have to delicately tiptoe around her beliefs and feelings in a one-sided attempt at friendship, I can properly ignore her.

 

Also, I'm 99% sure that Sera didn't even know the Inquisitor and Solas had broken up. She just noticed that suddenly the Inquisitor didn't have a tattoo all over their face and wanted to know what happened.

 

That said, I was really hoping to like Sera. I don't need or want her to be into "elfy" things--my Inquisitor isn't really ~super elfy~, IMO (though Sera definitely doesn't agree with that)--but I was kind of hoping my Inquisitor and her could at least not talk about elven gods or culture at all if it pisses Sera off so much. I've got some really religious friends, but I'm an atheist. You know what I don't usually talk about with them? Religion.

[robertthebard]

I was sitting here thinking about this, and something occurred to me:

I wonder if people that tried to use Sera as a security blanket played a non-human Warden that romanced Alistair, got dumped, and then ran to Sten for comfort...

[Tevinter Soldier]

@Nathair: Do the words "lack of empathy" resonate at all?

 

Look, I don't know about you, but when my friends get dumped, I comfort them. I support them. That's what friends do. The Inquisitor doesn't go running to Sera every time s/he gets a boo-boo or insulted by the Chantry or hurt in any minor way. They deal with that on their own. When they can't, that's when they turn to her, their supposed friend, for support, and instead they get a face-full of mocking.

 

It would be one thing if Solas were a lyrium-dealing criminal and she told us getting involved with him was a Bad Idea, and we did, and he screwed us over with a lyrium-dealing con. Then she would be justified in saying "I told you so".

 

It's another thing if she rubs salt in the wound by saying "I knew it! Your people are a bunch of idiots!"

 

The mistake you're making is you view Sera as a friend. she's quite clearly a borderline sociopath. who views murdering unarmed people as a bit of fun.

She's incapable of admitting fault or seeing the error of her way's.

 

She's not your friend, you just have a mutual interest thats all it is. thats all it will ever be. even those who romance her, she's quite clear superficial only interested in the physical side of the relationship.

 

does anyone honestly believe she wouldn't off any member of the inquisition if she believed there death to be part of her ridiculous notions of justice? 

this is woman who beats a man to death in the middle of a conversation.

 

she's unhinged. why you thought she'd give a damn about you, amazes me. She doesn't even give a damn about the people she "helps" it's all a pathetic revenge fantasy. she causes harm and enjoys it. the rest is just justification and enabling.

[Steelcan]

I was sitting here thinking about this, and something occurred to me:I wonder if people that tried to use Sera as a security blanket played a non-human Warden that romanced Alistair, got dumped, and then ran to Sten for comfort...

. He'd at least bake cookies

[robertthebard]

. He'd at least bake cookies

You may be right...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

@NWN-Ming-Ming: How did my beliefs get dragged into this? When did I establish that Sera must worship the Maker, or love nature, or be pro-Templar, or eat only cheese for a year if she didn't want to get killed? I just asked for her to show some empathy, which is something every sentient being has.

 

It's basic decency to not go around murdering people.

 

It's basic decency to not taunt a starving man with food.

 

It's basic decency to not make fun of your friend when they come to you looking for a bit of comfort.

 

Good points. Additionally, it is quite interesting to see that people here are debating the nature of decency as something subjective...

 

Sera is a character that LACKS empathy. I don't think she even knows what empathy is. For Sera, if something does not fit her tunnel world view, it is either stupid or deserves mockery...

 

She is easily the worst character in a Bioware game by far...There is little to no depth to her, no character growth, no arc, no nothing...

 

Sera = Random petty pranking & thieving + Pretentious standing up for the common + The inability to comprehend reality + The inability to learn and grow. 

 

That combination makes for an awful living creature.....But it does make for an outstanding psychopath... 

[AceHalberd]

Interesting to see how this discussion is going. I do want to clarify one thing on my own thoughts on Sera: Although she is the first Bioware companion I'm thinking of telling to fig off, she is certainly a well written character. I'm just not sure Bioware actually *intended* for her to be annoying though.

[robertthebard]

Good points. Additionally, it is quite interesting to see that people here are debating the nature of decency as something subjective...
 
Sera is a character that LACKS empathy. I don't think she even knows what empathy is. For Sera, if something does not fit her tunnel world view, it is either stupid or deserves mockery...
 
She is easily the worst character in a Bioware game by far...There is little to no depth to her, no character growth, no arc, no nothing...
 
Sera = Random petty pranking & thieving + Pretentious standing up for the common + The inability to comprehend reality + The inability to learn and grow. 
 
That combination makes for an awful living creature.....But it does make for an outstanding psychopath... 

...and yet, reading this thread, I can see that the majority of "I hate Sera for xxxx" are doing exactly what you point out as one of her biggest flaws, see the bolded above. So, if we're to take your opinion as objective, instead of subjective, everyone is guilty of that, and so, must be really terrible human beings? After all, isn't the whole point of this thread that she doesn't fit into someone's box of "this is what a friend should be"? I guess I have to hand it to you, that's about the best /thread post I've ever had the privilege of reading. After all, if people just accepted people at face value, this thread wouldn't even exist.

[Ap0crypha]

@robertthebard: Because the game wouldn't let me. It just gave me Sera. Believe me, I WOULD have gone to Cassandra if I could.

 

@NWN-Ming-Ming: And I find your view on morals being a fallacy, a fallacy. See how easy it is to state things like they're facts?

 

Look, I'm not here to talk philosophy. Sera behaved in a way I, and most people here, find repulsive. That's what we're discussing.

[robertthebard]

@robertthebard: Because the game wouldn't let me. It just gave me Sera. Believe me, I WOULD have gone to Cassandra if I could.
 
@NWN-Ming-Ming: And I find your view on morals being a fallacy, a fallacy. See how easy it is to state things like they're facts?
 
Look, I'm not here to argue ethics. Sera behaved in a way I, and most people here, find repulsive. That's what we're discussing.

Fair enough. I won't ever understand why anyone expected anything different from her, but I can see your dilemma.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Interesting to see how this discussion is going. I do want to clarify one thing on my own thoughts on Sera: Although she is the first Bioware companion I'm thinking of telling to fig off, she is certainly a well written character. I'm just not sure Bioware actually *intended* for her to be annoying though.

 

there's a distinction between being a terrible character and a terribly written character. 

Overall she has no depth or character growth, but that doesn't mean she's written terribly. a character arc would make no sense for her, she's just a rubbish person there's nothing hidden underneath the entire point of her character is that everythings on the table.

 

hell i'd be shocked if she ever develops into something other than someone i wish would end up being killed by "one of the little people" over something as pathetic as a piece of bread as a statement of poetic justice.

 

Those looking for some underlying redeeming factor about her? they will be sorely mistaken. Sera is an oxygen thief and nothing more. I will almost always tell her to shove off from now on and the few times i will recruit her, will be for my own pathetic revenge fantasy where i kick her out of the inquisition soon after. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

@Nathair: Do the words "lack of empathy" resonate at all?

Let's review the text here.

"Oh Sera, I just got dumped, my whole world is a shattered mess of broken pain, hold me and comfort me kind friend."

"Haw haw! Elves are stoopit! Neener neener neener!"

Nope, that is not what happened.

"Hey, what happened to those stupid pretensions tribal tats on your face?"

"I took them off, turns out we Elves had absolutely no idea what we were talking about all this time."

LOL! "Told you so!"

That is what happened.

 

And, I have to say "All those faces. That's just funny." She's right, that is funny.
 

[SilentNukee]

She's great. We need someone like her into the group so it can be a little fun at times. Everyone else is far too serious. Plus, she's a lot more intelligent than she likes to put on. Solas hates me, and I basically go against everything he wants.. I just can't seem to get him to like me, then again he's probably my least favorite and I can't seem to connect with him. Funny cuz I'm an elf too, but I follow more Sera's philosophy on not being too "elfy". I guess it just depends on your personality. I'm a child at heart, and so is Sera, so it fits well. I didn't like her at first, I thought she was crazy and killed people for no reason but then I could begin to understand her way of things. She grew on me. Much like Cassandra, who's such a softy inside. I love how unique they all are, and how someone can love one companion but dislike the next. That means the writers did a good job, as I'm sure they didn't want ALL companions to appeal to everyone. Some people love Solas, I think he's got his head far too up his ass and should learn to chill out once in a while and leave Cole alone. Bull, Dorian, Blackwall and Sera are among my faves. Why? Cuz they can have fun.

Dragon Age: Inquisition FemQuisitor (Elf) Romanci…:

She does really like you. And she isn't all about sex. It's all about the " annnd"... And I'm much the same IRL so I understand her. ;P

[AceHalberd]

I altered her theme song to depict the things Sera mostly is; was a five second amusement to make, and kind of funny to sing in your head along to the music! Enjoy.

(Sera Was never Instrumental: )

Sera was Mostly

Sera was mostly an abrasive girl,
Her tongue lashes out in derision.
But she was so fast,
And quick with her bow,
She still had use to the Inquisition.

Sera was mostly the noisiest girl,
Her opinions are loud and they're uncareful.
She knew the ways of other persons,
She just didn't care to please them.

(Chorus)
She would always like to say,
"Why be decent,
when you can cause disarray?"
Today she will fight,
To push her way.
She's a rogue and a thief,
And a selfish git.

(Repeat Chorus Once)

Sera was mostly a hypocritical girl,
Some say she lives in a delusion.
But she was so sharp,
And quick with bow,
Arrows strike all of her critics.

Sera was mostly the unutilised girl,
Her personality sharp like a razor.
She knew the ways of commoner men,
And she knew just how to manipulate them.

(Repeat Chorus Twice)

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

@NWN-Ming-Ming: And I find your view on morals being a fallacy, a fallacy. See how easy it is to state things like they're facts?

I would point you towards this:  Essentials of Argument

 

Read it, learn it, implement it.

 

While you're at it, here's another link I recommend

[Nathair Nimheil]

Sera is a character that LACKS empathy. I don't think she even knows what empathy is.

Nonsense. Your problem is that Sera doesn't validate what you feel.

Sera: There's that "we" stuff again. "We" means "us against them." But I like "them."

 

That's not lack of empathy, that's lack of tribalism.

[Tevinter Soldier]

...and yet, reading this thread, I can see that the majority of "I hate Sera for xxxx" are doing exactly what you point out as one of her biggest flaws, see the bolded above. So, if we're to take your opinion as objective, instead of subjective, everyone is guilty of that, and so, must be really terrible human beings? After all, isn't the whole point of this thread that she doesn't fit into someone's box of "this is what a friend should be"? I guess I have to hand it to you, that's about the best /thread post I've ever had the privilege of reading. After all, if people just accepted people at face value, this thread wouldn't even exist.

 

But even at face value she's reprehensible. If she were a bloke instead of woman the debate would not be is she ******, it would be anyone else think Sera has a punchable head.

 

her flawed character is Objective from an individual's standpoint, because the individual is making the logical conclusion that she is a crap person from within the social boundaries which they were raised. they are not expressing a personal opinion they a make a statement of fact which is true for anyone that was raised in any modern society. you may as well argue the colour blue is subjective (which if you get right down it, it is. you wouldn't believe how important names and ideas for colours are important in order to see them saw a great doco where they showed how a tribe of people who only had a small number of names for colours couldn't see the difference in what we would consider very different colours) It doesn't change the fact that when you play eye spy anyone who understands our concept of colour will objectively state the sky appears to be blue.

 

you may as well be arguing that cory as a bad guy is completely subjective. it's a pointless debate.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Nonsense. Your problem is that Sera doesn't validate what you feel.

Sera: There's that "we" stuff again. "We" means "us against them." But I like "them."

 

That's not lack of empathy, that's lack of tribalism.

Well said!  I couldn't have put it better myself.