1123 réponses à ce sujet

[Ap0crypha]

@Nathair: I misunderstood what you meant by tribalism. Sorry.

When I say her "them" changes, I mean she's very picky about who qualifies as "downtrodden". Ordinary folk do, oppressed mages don't solely because they're mages. She's perfectly happy to let them suffer "for the greater good" of the "common people", but isn't willing to let the "common people" suffer for the "greater good" of the Inquisition. It's hypocritical.

She greatly disapproves if you support Briala, who is going to make things better for the elves. How is that not excluding them from her circle of people in need?

[yummysoap]

The point is that she doesn't even attempt to reconsider her views on nobility, even with three of them doing their best (and a far better job than her, really) of helping the little people she treasures oh so much.

Her problem isn't with "nobility" inasmuch as it's with people acting superior and believing themselves to be superior over others. That's why the same prejudices carry over to the Dalish elves, who couldn't be further removed from nobility, but share some striking resemblances in other ways in that a great deal of them believe they're superior examples of their race and inherently "better" than commoners/city elves.

[Adam Ahmed]

Sera is the equivalent of a self hating jew.

 

Infact the elves are like jews. Reviving a dead language(If it wasn't for Israel, Hebrew would have died) preserving a past, being slaves and minorities mistreated. 

I think thats why she is unlikable. 

Now the writers did this on purpose, making her unlikable.They give her good points like loyalty and simple motives etc. 

But she is the elven equivalent of a self hating jew, an uncle tom if she were black.

[LenaMarie]

Nah, 99% of people that hate Sera are either Dalish Inquisitors or Solasmancers, she dislikes both (she dislikes the Dalish btw, not elves), so it's logical she will receive this backlash from them, what it is unfair is saying that she is a "bad person" when we've shared party with assasins, traitors and a literal terrorist.

She's better then most of the people complaining about her. Sure she's inmature but she has a valid point many of the sociopaths that game won't even look at.

[Aisynia]

I find it ironic people who are trolls don't like Sera, it's been my experience people who hate her tend to be trolls themselves. I'd wish these people would learn from the experience but trolls don't learn.

Personally I take her with a grain of salt, she acts like a kid for good reason, she's had a hard life and has a point about her "little people" being caught in the middle. A lesson she learned on the streets. But of course with how terrible people are they won't ever take the time to understand her and just right her off.

TLDR; your a horrible person for hating Sera.

 

So... you're just like her: "disagreeing with me means you are stupid and wrong and bad".

 

Okay.

[Nathair Nimheil]

@Nathair: I misunderstood what you meant by tribalism. Sorry.

When I say her "them" changes, I mean she's very picky about who qualifies as "downtrodden". Ordinary folk do, oppressed mages don't solely because they're mages. She's perfectly happy to let them suffer "for the greater good" of the "common people", but isn't willing to let the "common people" suffer for the "greater good" of the Inquisition. It's hypocritical.

She greatly disapproves if you support Briala, who is going to make things better for the elves. How is that not excluding them from her circle of people in need?

As I said earlier, the notion that "Sera defends the downtrodden" is not Sera's notion it is yours. She doesn't wear a sign saying "Defender of the Downtrodden". It is just your quick and simplistic thumbnail sketch of her character. You can't blame her because she doesn't fit perfectly into the pigeon hole you picked for her. You can't call her a hypocrite for failing to live up to an ethos you arbitrarily assigned to her.

 

Better idea: look at the decisions she makes and try to figure out where you went wrong in labeling her. (Hint: It was in trying to pick a simplistic label for her in the first place.)

[Aisynia]

Nah, 99% of people that hate Sera are either Dalish Inquisitors or Solasmancers, she dislikes both (she dislikes the Dalish btw, not elves), so it's logical she will receive this backlash from them, what it is unfair is saying that she is a "bad person" when we've shared party with assasins, traitors and a literal terrorist.

 

My first playthrough was a human who romanced Josephine. Immediately hated her. She's a bad person.

[Nathair Nimheil]

My first playthrough was a human who romanced Josephine. Immediately hated her. She's a bad person.

Not to pick on you personally, this is exactly what I see going on here. You* immediately hated her. Immediately. Therefore she must a bad person; The Other. Instant evaluation, total Black or White categorization followed by ongoing confirmation bias. If your snap judgement is later questioned or others disagree: Double down. Immediately. Hunt for anything that can be used to support your position. Redouble. Life or death, good vs evil, Mac vs PC, Together we will rule the universe as father and son: NEVER!

 

*The impersonal you

[Giantdeathrobot]

They aren't. She doesn't even know who the other members of the "network" are. That's explicit.
 

Conditional? No, it is not. She supports the underdogs in a wide variety of situation that don't earn her a clipped groat.
 

Again, no. She explicitly says, on more than one occassion, that certain nobles are OK despite being nobles. She also acknowledges that many elves are OK as well. ("Not too elfy" is the expression, I believe.) What they do and how they behave determine her opinion. Sure, she generalizes sometimes and wrongly sometimes but that is not the same thing.

And it is not even remotely possible for her to be a hypocrite by not living up to my analysis of her.
 

OK. Sera doesn't really do tribalism.

 

I'm not going to engage in a multi-quote war, but I do believe you're trying to have it both ways. You don't need to know all the members of a group to form a tribe. The thing about the Friends is that it's a collective of like-minded people who help each other in doing certain activities; it might not be a tribe in the stricitest sense of the word but it's not far off by any means. She still identifies with the group, if only on a purely ideological basis.

 

The generalization bothers me less than the fact that she doesn't change and grow over the game. Her views are borderline black and white and nothing you do or say will make a dent in them. Now for some people that might be a good thing (she's a rebel and you don't get to say what she does and all that) but from a character growth perspective it makes her pretty flat and uninteresting. Once you spoke a few times to Sera you know everything you need to know about her. 

[robertthebard]

Opinions, of course. In yours, she is. In mine, she's not.
 
 
Interesting, do you remember this particular mission?

No, I'm fixing to go back in game though, I can try to load the save previous and see if I get the same result. I do remember it was around the Denerim area of the map. Maybe I got somebody she knows fired...

[Tevinter Soldier]

No. Quite simply, you're saying "X is true" doesn't make it objective. In this instance, Sera is a waste of air is true, for some of the people posting here. The fact that the opposite is true for others, since we respect the fact that, harsh as it may be, she stuck to her personal beliefs instead of bowing to the PC's whims/needs. The very existence of two sides to this debate proves that it cannot be objective. Now, some obviously find her objectionable, but that still doesn't come back to objective. If it were objective, there would be no debate. Some would hold onto whatever vestiges of "but I have to be right" that they may feel they have, but nobody can say "We don't need air to breathe". Needing air to breathe is objective. Now, how does that concept apply to Sera, since, for it to be objective, it would have to be universally true?

 

it's got nothing to do with being right, or her agreeing with you.

the fact is from within the confines of society so much as is possible for anything to be objective, she is a bad person theirs no debate she murders people, she's rude, immature and blind. 

If you read my earlier post about her not at all being a friend you'd see that trying to make out that i'm just sore that she didn't agree on my point of view is ridiculous, i romanced casandra despite the fate i was super pro mage and she went head to head with me on many issues.

 

You're trying to debate that societies norms are subjective, but for the person making statement based off of those norms they are making a straight statement. driving on the wrong side of the road is subjective, but if you live in a country where there are rules rules and norms for which side of the road you drive on then you can pull all the extensionalist arguments you want. but it doesn't matter in a reality based circumstance, pure think tank you have a point but not in the real world.

 

if you choose to drive on the side of the road that society has determined is the "wrong side of the road" then the person making the statement telling you, you're on the wrong side of the road is making an objective assessment. it's not subjective in that circumstance.

 

likewise pretending Sera clearly negatives traits are "just like, your opinion man" is nonsense.

time and time again people have pointed out her numerous flaws which you aren't even addressing.

you continually push the argument towards trying to make out that people are only happy with people that don't agree with them.

 

you're missing the entire point, the fact that sticks to her guns does not take away from the negative traits that she's murderer, an idiot, rude, arrogant and self centred. based on the norms and rules which society is governed by says she's a bad egg.

 

answer this honestly, If i were to respond to your argument as sera would that is to sneer at you insult you and take this ****** without even entertaining your argument instead dismiss it out of hand.

 

would you view me positively or negatively? the answer is of course negatively because i'm violating social norms i'm acting like a dick. If you then found out i'd murdered someone, would your position change or would you further view me in a negative light? 

 

There's no need to answer everyone knows the answer, you would view me as a bad person. Now you can still like a bad person nobodies saying you can't like sera, very few people are saying she has zero redeeming qualities.

 

but the fact is objectively looking at her personality within the constraint of societal views on how a person should behave the simple fact is she's a bad person hell she's a borderline psychopath. It doesn't mean you can't like her character however. you can feel free join her fan club. shes still a deadshit.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I'm not going to engage in a multi-quote war, but I do believe you're trying to have it both ways. You don't need to know all the members of a group to form a tribe. The thing about the Friends is that it's a collective of like-minded people who help each other in doing certain activities; it might not be a tribe in the stricitest sense of the word but it's not far off by any means. She still identifies with the group, if only on a purely ideological basis.

We don't really see much Sera and Red Jenny stuff in the game but we do know that she says she uses them to accomplish her own ends. This fits pretty well with what we know about the Friends. So, yes, she might losely identify with the group on an ideological basis (when it suits her) but that is not (as you say) all it takes and it certainly doesn't mean that she should be expected to become a cheerleader for Team Inquisitor!

[Kimarous]

Even ignoring the specific moments of Sera's unpleasantness, I just don't like her. She's the type of person who I really can't stand in real life, so why should I put up with her in a game? She's annoying, rude, obstinate, and disagrees with pretty much everything I value, while holding a set of values that I find incomprehensible. I also don't particularly care for pranksters - "getting people upset for the sake of your own amusement", to me, is the mark of a scumbag. If you like that kind of thing, fine, but when taking all her factors into account, I can't think of a single reason to keep her around... and no, "getting jars of bees that I'll never end up using" isn't worth the effort.

[robmokron]

Even ignoring the specific moments of Sera's unpleasantness, I just don't like her. She's the type of person who I really can't stand in real life, so why should I put up with her in a game? She's annoying, rude, obstinate, and disagrees with pretty much everything I value, while holding a set of values that I find incomprehensible. I also don't particularly care for pranksters - "getting people upset for the sake of your own amusement", to me, is the mark of a scumbag. If you like that kind of thing, fine, but when taking all her factors into account, I can't think of a single reason to keep her around... and no, "getting jars of bees that I'll never end up using" isn't worth the effort.

Jars of bees have fueled my Inquisition with sucess, time and time over again.

[Giantdeathrobot]

We don't really see much Sera and Red Jenny stuff in the game but we do know that she says she uses them to accomplish her own ends. This fits pretty well with what we know about the Friends. So, yes, she might losely identify with the group on an ideological basis (when it suits her) but that is not (as you say) all it takes and it certainly doesn't mean that she should be expected to become a cheerleader for Team Inquisitor!

 

When did I ever say she was supposed to become a cheerleader no matter what? There's a pretty vast gulf between being a super nice person all the time, and being an obnoxious ass to anyone who doesn't share your viewpoints. Sera's the latter far, far more often than the former. Sure, it's part of the character, but for many people that's just not an endearing trait at all.

 

I can very much deal with people that don't sugar-coat the truth, but Sera takes it a step further than that and is just an unpleasant person. Surprise, unpleasant people aren't very well liked, generally, unless they can make up with something else. I'd argue Morrigan manages, as does Vivienne and Dorian to a degree. Sera, well, doesn't.

[Nathair Nimheil]

the fact is from within the confines of society so much as is possible for anything to be objective, she is a bad person theirs no debate she murders people, she's rude, immature and blind.

So she murders people (the rest is silly, being "rude" doesn't make you a bad person.) Well yeah, she murders people. So do we. All the damn time. It's a murdering game! What you seem to mean is that she murders people who you might not have murdered, or for different reasons than you have used to justify your own murders, or she murders without permission of the protagonist, or something like that. Hell, the first time we see her she "murders" someone right in front of us and our reaction is "Heeeey! I wanted to talk to that dude!"
 

You're trying to debate that societies norms are subjective, but for the person making statement based off of those norms they are making a straight statement. driving on the wrong side of the road is subjective, but if you live in a country where there are rules rules and norms for which side of the road you drive on then you can pull all the extensionalist arguments you want.

Thus speaks the outcast, apostate leader building up their army in a hidden fortess in the hills. What you are saying (certainly without meaning to)  is be a good Nazi, show up for the Two-Minutes Hate, Watch Thou For The Mutant!
 

but the fact is objectively looking at her personality within the constraint of societal views on how a person should behave

I think we've all agreed that Sera does not follow society's rules, but then neither do we (murdering outcast apostates, remember?) That's not enough to make a person bad.

If you think Following Society's Rules is what makes you a good person... well, I'll take Sera over you any day, thanks.

[Adam Ahmed]

Im a female qunari, I am ROMANCING Sera, and even I barely can stand her. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

being an obnoxious ass to anyone who doesn't share your viewpoints. Sera's the latter far, far more often than the former. Sure, it's part of the character, but for many people that's just not an endearing trait at all.

Absolutely. She can be pretty abrasive and no, that is not endearing for many people. No argument. Does that make her A Bad Person, Evil, A Psycopath, the worst character ever to be described in the history of fiction? That's the kind of hyperbolic hysteria that I was addressing.

[Seraphim24]

 

being an obnoxious ass to anyone who doesn't share your viewpoints.

 

Oh really, see now from my perspective there is someone else here full of venom to people that don't share your viewpoints. Oh yes,

 

but Sera takes it a step further than that and is just an unpleasant person. Surprise, unpleasant people aren't very well liked, generally, unless they can make up with something else. I'd argue Morrigan manages, as does Vivienne and Dorian to a degree. Sera, well, doesn't.

 

Maybe this guy? How do you not share Sera's viewpoint any less than she shares yours?

 

It kind of reads like this

 

I can very much deal with people that don't sugar-coat the truth, but I can't

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Absolutely. She can be pretty abrasive and no, that is not endearing for many people. No argument. Does that make her A Bad Person, Evil, A Psycopath, the worst character ever to be described in the history of fiction? That's the kind of hyperbolic hysteria that I was addressing.

While maybe not evil or a psychopath, mocking someone because of them learning something bad about their culture does make her a bad person. If someone knows someone of a different culture who learned that it was terrible, no matter how much the person dislike that culture they should never tell the other person "I told you so" when they are at their lowest. There is a time and place for disagreeing with people, and that is not one of them. 

[Ennai and 54 others]

I'm betting that many people who love Sera secretly wish they weren't an authority or a leader,they wish they were just rebels sticking it to the man.Being forced to wear those horrible uptight looking casual clothes doesn't help much.Unfortunately you are the man.The answer to every thing is not "arrows" and pranking your own subordinates is pretty stupid,it's like stealing from your own mansion,or a child spitting on his mothers apron.

 

I don't like her.Not because she is a bad person.I just don't like gullible idiots that think they are better than everyone else.Especially if they aren't self aware.

 

 

 

 

Anyway lets hope the inquisition has a good influence on her in the coming years.

[Steelcan]

The hallmark of a deep and wise character is fart noises, everyone knows that

[Nathair Nimheil]

While maybe not evil or a psychopath, mocking someone because of them learning something bad about their culture does make her a bad person.

Er... no. That is not what happened. She is quite explicit that she is laughing at the Dalish, she explicitly makes the distinction "you know now but they put on all this 'real elf' stuff, and I knew it, it's all just fancy dress." And, you know, it is if not funny at least pretty damned amusing poetic justice. All those faces... 

 

There is a time and place for disagreeing with people, and that is not one of them.

Even if I agreed with your assessment of the situation (and I don't, really) that is still pretty weak tea as an excuse for casting someone into the outer darkness as an unreedemable evil person.

[Heimdall]

I'm betting that many people who love Sera secretly wish they weren't an authority or a leader,they wish they were just rebels sticking it to the man.Being forced to wear those horrible uptight looking casual clothes doesn't help much.Unfortunately you are the man.The answer to every thing is not "arrows".

Well, I certainly don't feel that way. I almost never play the type of characters you describe.

Whenever someone says things along the lines of "Everyone who likes X character must be" they're really just trying to be dismissive of any possibility that other opinions have merit.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Absolutely. She can be pretty abrasive and no, that is not endearing for many people. No argument. Does that make her A Bad Person, Evil, A Psycopath, the worst character ever to be described in the history of fiction? That's the kind of hyperbolic hysteria that I was addressing.

 

I didn't say that she was an evil psycopath, either, just that I don't like her at all. Please let's not lump every person who doesn't like Sera in the same basket.

 

I mean, the whole ''psycopath'' thing would be a bit silly anyway. Any member of our party has killed a few dozen people at least before the game ends, even the relatively nicer ones. As Zevran says in Origins, the kind of people that can do that in the first place probably aren't the most well-adjusted to begin with.

 

It also doesn't help that she stands out. Everyone else in the Inquisition is, if not obedient, than at least respectful of the PC and the institution, unless you personally antagonize them. Even if you disagree with strong personalities like Iron Bull or Vivienne or Cassandra, they will stay polite most of the time. Sera remains unruly even if you befriend her, instantly becomes defensive if you dare start to act like the leader you actually are, and pretty much refuses to even consider opposing viewpoints, prefering fart jokes and high school level counter-arguments to them. Again, part of the character, but it's really easy to not like her I must say.