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[Rifneno]

Everything we don't understand is a demon now? When did you get a BSN account, Vivienne?

[Vandicus]

Everything we don't understand is a demon now? When did you get a BSN account, Vivienne?

 

Would you reject the theory outright if I had suggested that the Maker being a spirit was a plausible theory or Andraste being a powerful mage was plausible?

 

All we've seen was that they exist. Same for the Old Gods.

 

I'm not going to reject the theory outright without sufficient grounds, even if its not the one that I favor.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Everything we don't understand is a demon now? When did you get a BSN account, Vivienne?

Isn't the distinction arbitrary though? "Demons" and "Gods" are both just spirits of the fade, no?

[Steelcan]

Isn't the distinction arbitrary though? "Demons" and "Gods" are both just spirits of the fade, no?

no, spirits and demons are fade entities, a god would be something much greater

[Vandicus]

Isn't the distinction arbitrary though? "Demons" and "Gods" are both just spirits of the fade, no?

 

We don't yet know whether things designated as "gods" originate from the Fade.

 

Corypheus certainly didn't, and he meets most standards of godhood. Immortality, incredible powers for the world in which he lives.

 

The Old Gods have physical forms that can be killed, but the way in which Corypheus talks of Dumat implies they were capable of long-range communication and answering of prayers.

 

One theory about the Old Gods is that the physical High Dragons were used as avatars for powerful Fade denizens.

 

After all, the arrival of a Greater Pride Demon is characterized as a Blight level event, yet has never been known to occur before. Perhaps the reason this is, is that they don't have sufficiently strong vessels to cross over. The closest thing that existed ended up being High Dragons.

 

If however, the Old Gods were born in the material plane and didn't originate from the Fade, that opens up the possibility of at least one type of Thedosian god not originating from the Fade.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

You know, I keep reading people saying that Sera doesn't care about the "little people" but that's not what I have observed in play at all. 

 

In fact in numerous banters/reactions I've heard her become outraged and furious at finding "little people" killed and slaughtered.  The most vivid in my memory is her reaction to finding unarmed civilians murdered in the Western Approach and the anguish in her voice lamenting "They didn't even have knives!  Why would someone kill helpless people like this?!"  There were other instances of her reactions like this and it dawned on me really what Sera's schtick is.

 

Sera plays by big-girl rules.  She's not as concerned with high social class or caste.  As has been pointed out by her attitude with her Red Jenny friends, she's also far less impacted by soldiers and operatives that are slain doing missions.  In her eyes, an adventurer or a soldier knows what they're getting into and can better 'take it' when harshness comes their way.  Powerful individuals like Vivienne or the Inquisitor are in her eyes, expected to be able to take more flack and endure more hardship or punishment than the local baker or a traveling pilgrim of Andraste.  She also holds similar views on nobility and the rich, she specifically says she doesn't hate all the nobility or bourgeois figures of Thedas, she admits there are ones that do good and know their role in the scheme of things.  But her platform is that if you're gonna enjoy the fruits of privilege and rank, if you're gonna play by big-boy rules, you gotta suck it up when times are lean or bad, i.e. when dangers abound, you better strap on your armor and sword and get out there and fight.  Hiding behind ANY special snowflake status or privilege sets her off.  Similarly if you're a baker, a cobbler, a serving girl, or a valet- you aren't expected in Sera's world view to suffer the violence and cruel fate that is dished out in the nations of Thedas.  Sera cares more about people who can't take what's being dished out.  That's why she comes off as hypocritical to some of the posters here, she doesn't treat everyone the same, because in her practical eyes, people AREN'T EQUAL.

 

The Dalish are an excellent example of a group hated by Sera that hype themselves up as a "wronged people" despite contrary Codices as far back as DAO that suggest the Elves were responsible for starting the war that led to their downfall.  They talk down to everyone not Dalish and they also expect/demand special treatment because of their disadvantaged past.  They talk **** behind peoples' back in Elven and then adopt a posture of racial pride when they're called out on their behavior.  It's really no wonder that Sera reserves a special disdain for them.  It's also part of the canon codices in DAO, DAII, and supporting material like the Last Court that the Dalish are well-known for ambushing and killing common folk that they regard as straying too close to their caravans and territory.  They even talk about killing "shemlen" as a point of pride. 

 

I'm also going to add that Sera's views on Mythal, even after meeting are still internally consistent.  There's no proof that Mythal is an elven god.  There's only proof that Mythal exists.  There's a clear difference there.  The Dalish Elven Con Game is something that I believe becomes intuitively recognized by Sera (never Bull-@#$! a Bull@#$tter after all) and her stubborn refusal to accept the Elven Gods is something I can easily get behind. 

 

All in all, I have observed no inconsistencies in Sera's world view or behavior that seemingly justifies the hate many display for her.  I found her delightful and irreverent, a true Punch and Judy archetype pointing out when the Emperor has no clothes.

[Nathair Nimheil]

no, spirits and demons are fade entities, a god would be something much greater

Would be? I'm guessing that's not canon?

[Steelcan]

Would be? I'm guessing that's not canon?

. Let's take the Maker as an example, he created spirits, and demons, and the Fade, and the physical world, that is a god in DA, a spirit is just a fade denizen

[Ennai and 54 others]

Would you reject the theory outright if I had suggested that the Maker being a spirit was a plausible theory or Andraste being a powerful mage was plausible?

 

All we've seen was that they exist. Same for the Old Gods.

 

I'm not going to reject the theory outright without sufficient grounds, even if its not th

Look,if you want a theory of wether elven gods were demons ,Solas is the best person in the entire inquisition to ask.He happens to be a fade expert and an elven god.

 

"Demon" is actually a subjective term admittedly.The chantry has done much damage to southern peoples knowledge and interaction with spirits,part of that is the distinction between a spirit and demon.no spirit is inherently good,wisdom can become pride,purpose can become desire.Command exists in between,compassion can lead to mercy killings(as cole has shown).

 

 

When Solas says demon,he means "spirit that will probably attack or try to possess you"

 

When Sera says demon she means "I don't know what this is so arrows (fart noise)"

 

Who should we listen to I wonder?

[Nathair Nimheil]

. Let's take the Maker as an example, he created spirits, and demons, and the Fade, and the physical world, that is a god in DA, a spirit is just a fade denizen

All according to the Chantry. Look, we know there are spirits in the fade, some of them are called Demons and others aren't. Everything else is pretty much just hearsay and legend, isn't it? How do we know that if the Maker was anything at all it wasn't a Fade spirit rather like Justice or Valor but with a bit more voltage?

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

When Solas says demon,he means "spirit that will probably attack or try to possess you"

 

When Sera says demon she means "I don't know what this so arrows (fart noise)"

 

Who should we listen to I wonder?

Hrmmm... the one that didn't lie to you, mislead you, or abandon you when push came to shove? 

 

Just a candid reminder that Sera always is honest with you and stands by your side.  Baldy can't say the same.

[Vandicus]

. Let's take the Maker as an example, he created spirits, and demons, and the Fade, and the physical world, that is a god in DA, a spirit is just a fade denizen

 

That's an in-universe theory held by the Chantry. The Maker did not necessarily create all of that nor is he necessarily not a spirit. Haven't seen a whole lot of evidence one way or the other.

[Steelcan]

All according to the Chantry. Look, we know there are spirits in the fade, some of them are called Demons and others aren't. Everything else is pretty much just hearsay and legend, isn't it? How do we know that if the Maker was anything at all it wasn't a Fade spirit rather like Justice or Valor but with a bit more voltage?

. Im not debating theology, just pointing out the differences in power between a god and a spirit

[Steelcan]

The Maker very well might not exist, but in theory his power level far exceeds that of a spirit

[Vandicus]

Look,if you want a theory of wether elven gods were demons ,Solas is the best person in the entire inquisition to ask.He happens to be a fade expert and an elven god.

 

"Demon" is actually a subjective term admittedly.The chantry has done much damage to southern peoples knowledge and interaction with spirits,part of that is the distinction between a spirit and demon.no spirit is inherently good,wisdom can become pride,purpose can become desire.Command exists in between,compassion can lead to mercy killings(as cole has shown).

 

 

When Solas says demon,he means "spirit that will probably attack or try to possess you"

 

When Sera says demon she means "I don't know what this so arrows (fart noise)"

 

Who should we listen to I wonder?

 

 

Demon Lords, as the Tevinters referred to them, have never been known to posses anyone or enter the material realm.

 

Should we then not refer to them as demon lords but spirit lords?

 

What we learn from Solas seems to imply that Spirits and Demons are multi-stage beings. They can become one or the other(some even have great freedom of form, like Ishmael).

 

I'll readily admit to Demon being a loaded term, but given the recent revelations of ancient elven society, it would not surprise me at all if the ancient elven gods largely behaved like the Tevinter Old Gods(seemingly the societies were quite similar). If the Old Gods were a form of fade spirit, I would definitely think of them as Demons, regardless of whether they attempted to enter the material plane.

 

*EDIT

 

Also, most Spirits don't seek interaction with the material plane at all. Both the Elven Gods and Old Gods seemed to have been constantly involved in their respective societies. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

The Maker very well might not exist, but in theory his power level far exceeds that of a spirit

That's not really a real distinction though, is it? If a thing lives in the Fade and has a power level of up to X we call it a spirit or a demon, X+ and we call it a god. So the gods can't be demons purely because of our totally arbitrary naming convention?

[Ennai and 54 others]

I think of spirits and gods using a mass effect analogy.

 

VIs are like spirits.Rogue VIs (the"I must protect you by imprisoning you"types)are like demons.

 

AIs and Geth are like gods.(not perfect)

 

 

Is it possible for more than one spirit to possess a body?

 

Anyway we should go back to talking about the imbecile.

[Vandicus]

I think of spirits and gods using a mass effect analogy.

 

VIs are like spirits.Rogue VIs (the type where the they are still doing what they were told but in a bad way)are like demons.

 

AIs and Geth are like gods.(not perfect)

 

 

Is it possible for more than one spirit to possess a body?

 

Anyway we should go back to talking about the imbecile.

 

Well I'm just pointing out that its unfair to judge Sera as ignorant, about a topic which we arguably don't know enough to make definitive statements about either(and we have meta knowledge across Thedas's history and multiple games to draw upon).

 

Saw a similar argument that Vivienne was stupid to dismiss the Grey Warden order, despite the fact that outsiders don't actually know what's necessary to kill an Archdemon(Blackwall even refuses to elaborate on the topic with the Inquisitor).

 

We can't expect people to make judgement based on information they don't have.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Anyway we should go back to talking about the imbecile.

[Steelcan]

That's not really a real distinction though, is it? If a thing lives in the Fade and has a power level of up to X we call it a spirit or a demon, X+ and we call it a god. So the gods can't be demons purely because of our totally arbitrary naming convention?

you are making this far mor complicated than it needs to be

[Nathair Nimheil]

you are making this far mor complicated than it needs to be

On the contrary, I am saying that it is very, very simple. There are spirits in/of the fade. We pretty much arbitrarily call some of them demons, some of them spirits and some of them gods. Sometimes what we call them changes from one category to another or depending upon who you ask. So the claim that "Sera thinks they were all demons,she is objectively wrong." no, not so much.

[Ennai and 54 others]

Hrmmm... the one that didn't lie to you, mislead you, or abandon you when push came to shove? 

 

Just a candid reminder that Sera always is honest with you and stands by your side.  Baldy can't say the same.

 

Solas has vastly more intelligence,beauty and experience in his chin dimple than Sera will ever have.The answer is clear.

 

If he is away on business then ask Morrigan or listen to the voices from the well.If that fails go speak to a wisdom spirit.

Ultimately you must never listen to the jester.

[Steelcan]

On the contrary, I am saying that it is very, very simple. There are spirits in/of the fade. We pretty much arbitrarily call some of them demons, some of them spirits and some of them gods. Sometimes what we call them changes from one category to another or depending upon who you ask. So the claim that "Sera thinks they were all demons,she is objectively wrong." no, not so much.

Spirits = demons they can be either depending on what's going on around them and how they are perceived

A god would be much more, capable of much greater acts and more powerful.

For example, a spirit of justice is like an angel while the Maker is God

[Vandicus]

Don't be dense.

 

Solas is prettier and smarter and closer to the action than Sera,and he seems to genuinely want you to learn.If you can't ask him then ask Morrigan or listen to the voices from the well.Ultimately you must never listen to the imbecile.

 

Are you being humorous here or do you genuinely mean this?

 

The Trickster God, Morrigan, and the cacophony of whispers tied to Flemeth. To take their words at face value is rather naive. Not to suggest we couldn't learn anything from them, but they don't exactly give off the impression of having our best interests at heart. Early DA:O Morrigan certainly would not have cared much for us.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Spirits = demons they can be either depending on what's going on around them and how they are perceived

A god would be much more, capable of much greater acts and more powerful.

For example, a spirit of justice is like an angel while the Maker is God

According to... you? 'Cause as far as I know the Maker is nothing but a myth. (Or is that what you meant?)