1123 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

innocent people died in the mage rebellions. Anders WAS a mass murderer. He blew up a chantry full of innocent people. Many of them, mages. More innocent people got caught in the cross-fire between the mages and the Templars. Mages are dangerous, and the circle is necessary. It needed reform, but that is not how it should have been done.

 

She's referring to the extremely ill-conceived timing of the mage rebellion.  Because Anders performed that terrorist attack, it raised fear of magic among common people to a high-point it hadn't seen for literally centuries.  This is the equivalent of a lone wolf terrorist in some separatist region (take your pick - Quebec, Kurdistan, Basque Country, wherever) going crazy and blowing up a government building with hundreds of people in it. Then right afterwards, a bunch of people in that region band together and form a rogue government and declare themselves officially separate.  How would this look to average person looking on?  It would appear at the very least as a tacit acceptance of the bombing and would lead some to think the rogue group was actually involved in the bombing.  This will literally instantly make most people wildly suspicious and openly hostile towards mages, when what needed to happen to progress mage status was for normal/non-crazy mages to establish that aren't all like that dude who just blew up a Chantry.  Choosing that moment to rebel says "We want our freedom *now* and we are willing to blow up buildings to get it."   

 

 

Yes, Anders. Anders, a Grey Warden apostate. Not Anders the Circle Mage. He also happens to be dead in my playthrough. Hawke executed him for his terrorist actions already.

 

The Mage-Templar War was started by an apostate Grey Warden mage and a fanatically desperate Lord Seeker who does not want the truth about the Rite of Tranquility to come out.

 

Not because of the Circle Mages. Not because of all mages. Not because of Rebel Mages who only wanted and have only wanted freedom. We have known this since DAO where the Libertarians have been wanting separation from the Chantry since even before DAO. 

 

I thought someone as capable and as intelligent as Vivienne would understand this. My Dalish mage did, my Qunari mage did and none of them are Circle mages.

 

Oh well, perhaps Vivienne is not as capable or as intelligent as she thinks...

[Virgulec]

I think she's, justifiably so, scared of the mystic stuff. And honestly, she does have a valid point about ..."elves living like **** in the forest". My char jibes her and she called him daft, and says she likes him and would like to work for him. Her personality is refreshing. For me, she's like Varric when I first met him. He is still the same way, only a bit more serious due to his experiences with Hawke and Red Lyrium(enjoying my reapers by the way: way cooler than the flaming ones). But Solas... sorry got no love for the egghead.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Shes arrogant, thinks her ignorance is a right and that anyone else with a more educated and broader understanding of the world is stupid.

 

She spends all her time "sticking it to" the nobles of Thedas via her little inverted Robin Hood thing, but really when it comes down to it, all she cares about is that she wins in the end.

 

Shes a petulant child that gets wildly upset if you disagree with any of her preconceived notions...I actually let her murder a noble in her quest, but when I try to tell her that there could have been another way to solve that problem, she violently rejects it and refuses to see any other point of view.

 

She says shes fighting for the "little people, the commons"...but shes really just enriching herself at the expense of everyone else, using the common people of Thedas as her excuse to willfully murder people, steal their money and enrich herself.

 

Sure, she can be funny at times and even cute..but funny and cute doesn't plaster over that amount of internal ugliness. It doesn't excuse her blatant profiteering of what should actually be a noble cause. Shes not helping the downtrodden, shes helping herself to the downtrodden....like its a buffet where she can choose what she wants and benefit from their problems personally.

 

Her personality is disgusting to me.

 

Sera in a nutshell.

 

She tries to pass off as a female elven Robin Hood but the more you find out about her, the more you realize that she is a petty vengeful thief that can be cute and funny and uses the "its for the commoners" justification.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

She's quite... complex. Not really using her in this playthrough but I plan to in the next one. 

[lLord Bhaal]

Sera had me at "bits up, face down!"

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

*snip*

Plus, I think something broke in her head. She is not entirely sane, I think she is doing quite well for mentally challenged person, although she needs some guidance and medicine.

 

One other reason I detest her is because her lack of respect for other people's beliefs (Solas). You don't have to agree with other people's beliefs or opinion, but no one is in the right here and a debate about such thing can go on forever. Call it Sera just being herself or that she's strong and independence type, in fact call it whatever you like people, but Sera is arrogant, self centered. She always thinks she is in the right, and only she is right while the rest of people who disagree with her are stupeed, according to Sera herself.

[Virgulec]

But, you've got to love her "say what" (PF reference me thinks) entrance.

[Tootles FTW]

My first playthrough I found her to be surprisingly annoying and intolerant.  My second playthrough I'm actually using her in my party and I find her to be quite funny.  And the very dialogue you brought up - the one with Solas - cracked me up.  Her views are still personally grating, but that comes with certain people.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

She's referring to what the masses now think.  Intelligence has very little to do with it.  And discounting what the masses think (the very people that have to be won over for a rebellion to work) is a dumb move.  

 

Also, the fact that Anders is a Grey Warden is totally irrelevant.  Most people don't even know he's a Grey Warden.

 

So facts are irrelevant because the people are not bothered to find out more ? But perceptions and fweewings are ? *Disgusted noise*

 

The Mage Rebellion wanted a situation where mages can exist without Chantry supervision and the Templars. That's it.

 

They did not exist to seek legitimacy among the common people.

 

In fact, the southern mages, in the epilogue, go on to reform the College of Enchanters into a Theodosian equivalent of Hogwarts / College of Winterhold / Arcane University. 

 

They were never there to seek unity with the Muggles common non magical people. 

[Ennai and 54 others]

 

 

 

Yes, Anders. Anders, a Grey Warden apostate. Not Anders the Circle Mage. He also happens to be dead in my playthrough. Hawke executed him for his terrorist actions already.

 

The Mage-Templar War was started by an apostate Grey Warden mage and a fanatically desperate Lord Seeker who does not want the truth about the Rite of Tranquility to come out.

 

Not because of the Circle Mages. Not because of all mages. Not because of Rebel Mages who only wanted and have only wanted freedom. We have known this since DAO where the Libertarians have been wanting separation from the Chantry since even before DAO. 

 

I thought someone as capable and as intelligent as Vivienne would understand this. My Dalish mage did, my Qunari mage did and none of them are Circle mages.

 

Oh well, perhaps Vivienne is not as capable or as intelligent as she thinks...

 

Vivienne has actually been proven right in a sense.By the end of the mage arc even alistair is completely fed up with the mages.If the herald wasn't there they would have been displaced again.Even some of the mages in Redcliffe were angry that the decision to disband the circle was made for them.

 

Couple that with the fact that not all circles were bad places to live and Kirkwall was the worst,the argument for a full scale rebellion seems weak.

[LordParbr]

 

 

 

Yes, Anders. Anders, a Grey Warden apostate. Not Anders the Circle Mage. He also happens to be dead in my playthrough. Hawke executed him for his terrorist actions already.

 

The Mage-Templar War was started by an apostate Grey Warden mage and a fanatically desperate Lord Seeker who does not want the truth about the Rite of Tranquility to come out.

 

Not because of the Circle Mages. Not because of all mages. Not because of Rebel Mages who only wanted and have only wanted freedom. We have known this since DAO where the Libertarians have been wanting separation from the Chantry since even before DAO. 

 

I thought someone as capable and as intelligent as Vivienne would understand this. My Dalish mage did, my Qunari mage did and none of them are Circle mages.

 

Oh well, perhaps Vivienne is not as capable or as intelligent as she thinks...

 

Most people won't care that Anders is a Grey Warden apostate, and not a Circle Mage. To the common folk, a mage is a mage. Vivienne does recognise that, but she also recognizes that mages need safeguards. They are all potential guns for any demon that can worm their way in. The Circles weren't the best solution, but they were better than this

[TheWinstitute]

Plus, I think something broke in her head. She is not entirely sane, I think she is doing quite well for mentally challenged person, although she needs some guidance and medicine.

 

One other reason I detest her is because her lack of respect for other people's beliefs (Solas). You don't have to agree with other people's beliefs or opinion, but no one is in the right here and a debate about such thing can go on forever. Call it Sera just being herself or that she's strong and independence type, in fact call it whatever you like people, but Sera is arrogant, self centered. She always thinks she is in the right, and only she is right while the rest of people who disagree with her are stupeed, according to Sera herself.

 

I suppose it could be said that Sera must be a well written character because she is as evocative of varying impressions at all.

 

Personally I find the character trite. But others might have slightly higher estimations of the writing narrative behind her. Personally she boils down to a simple authorial ideal...

 

"Lets take the cute little elven fantasy girl trope....turn it upside down and make it everything that it isn't, traditionally"....thats not exactly enlightened character design imho. To me its kind of lazy...simply making a character the polar opposite of expectation isn't good writing or character development.

 

Well if there is one traditional thing they did stick to its that apparently all elves have british accents and all commoners come from Herefordshire.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

Oh well, perhaps Vivienne is not as capable or as intelligent as she thinks...

She consider the Grey Wardens as relic of the past despite that there are two more Blights according to Tevinter Imperium, and the Darkspawn is still around. I thought she of all people would know better that it's necessary to keep the Wardens around. I guess she is not the brightest after all.

[jlb524]

With Sera, I sort of picked up on her having insecurity with some of her beliefs as she wasn't used to having them tested and this defensiveness had her coming off as arrogant about the them.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

This is a legitimately stupid move on her part.  To be fair though, I've only read about this on the forums.  I've not actually seen it in game yet so I'm waiting for some context to finally make up my mind. Also, I will now stop derailing this thread with Vivienne.  Perhaps a new one should be started on this topic. 

Trust me. I have no reason to lie, and that "relic of the past" or "are you flinging these fools at demons now, my dear. Could't you just uses rocks" is exactly her word. 

[Ennai and 54 others]

What's interesting is that both Sera and Vivienne claim to care about the common people.They are both suspect.

[robertthebard]

Shes arrogant, thinks her ignorance is a right and that anyone else with a more educated and broader understanding of the world is stupid.

Really, because I really didn't see any of that. In fact, I challenge you to find any one of the NPCs with a broader understanding of the world than she has.
 

She spends all her time "sticking it to" the nobles of Thedas via her little inverted Robin Hood thing, but really when it comes down to it, all she cares about is that she wins in the end.

How is she "winning"? The missions on the War Table benefit the Inquisition, not her. Well, the Inquisition, and the "little people" that make up her network.
 

Shes a petulant child that gets wildly upset if you disagree with any of her preconceived notions...I actually let her murder a noble in her quest, but when I try to tell her that there could have been another way to solve that problem, she violently rejects it and refuses to see any other point of view.

You mean the idea that it's more important if people are treated fairly, than what hat you're wearing to the next Salon?
 

She says shes fighting for the "little people, the commons"...but shes really just enriching herself at the expense of everyone else, using the common people of Thedas as her excuse to willfully murder people, steal their money and enrich herself.

Do you have some examples of this, or is it more that she challenges your notion of "privileged"?
 

Sure, she can be funny at times and even cute..but funny and cute doesn't plaster over that amount of internal ugliness. It doesn't excuse her blatant profiteering of what should actually be a noble cause. Shes not helping the downtrodden, shes helping herself to the downtrodden....like its a buffet where she can choose what she wants and benefit from their problems personally.
 
Her personality is disgusting to me.

I'll wait until you show me some examples of profiteering. None of the War Table quests directly benefit her, but most do benefit both the little people she talks about, and the Inquisition. If we take the same view of the pranks thing as this post does of her, it would seem she's kind of superficial. However, the dialog leading up to the pranks, and the things she refuses to do, such as Leliana's locked box, gives a whole different perspective on who she is, and what she's about. She knows, full well, that people are going to be, at the least, annoyed with her. But she does it anyway? Was it to be selfish? No. In fact, it's one of the most selfless things I can recall seeing her do. She sets herself up as the bad guy, to try to take everyone's mind off the big picture for a even a few minutes. Is anyone that's condemning her character for this condemning themselves for the Josephine balcony talk? It is, after all, the exact same principle.

All in all, I find her a great character. She's tons of fun to drag around with Cass, who seems to have a genuine soft spot for her. Based entirely on party banter, anyway.

[Eloka]

She is too; look at me I am unique and soooo quirky, different and cuuuuteeee! Drew Barrymore/Salvador Dali. I can't stand those type of people, completely boring, loud and uninspired. They act like they will die if they don't get attention and do outlandish things just to get some. I am also very pro Dalish so that also rubs me the wrong way.

I haven't really tried to get to know her much at all because of how she came off, I will try to get to know her in my second playthrough if I can withstand it.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Trust me. I have no reason to lie, and that "relic of the past" or "are you flinging these fools at demons now, my dear. Could't you just uses rocks" is exactly her word. 

 

Yep. That line from Vivienne about the Grey Wardens was the decider for me labelling Vivienne as an unintelligent, blind and naive person.

 

At first I thought that she was just speaking from the perspective of a very privileged mage, I mean not every mage gets to sleep with a duke and get the resulting benefits right ?

 

However, her dialogues in Adamant made me go "Gurrll...you crazy ?! You want me to throw you to the Darkspawn and give you some blight to see how important Wardens are ?!"

[Bayonet Hipshot]

What's interesting is that both Sera and Vivienne claim to care about the common people.They are both suspect.

 

Those who claim to be fighting for the common people should always be treated with suspicion. 

 

Why ? Because common people are common, diverse and different. Commoners in Ferelden are not the commoners in Orlais, for example. The commoners in Redcliffe are not the commoners of Crestwood. 

 

How can one person claim to stand up for the rights of a group so diverse and so different ? 

 

For the most part, the "I am for the commoners" is an PR move in order to mask their true intentions. Their true intentions might be good or bad or shady but it does not change the reality that the claim of "I am people people" is a PR mask. 

[TheWinstitute]

Really, because I really didn't see any of that. In fact, I challenge you to find any one of the NPCs with a broader understanding of the world than she has.
 

How is she "winning"? The missions on the War Table benefit the Inquisition, not her. Well, the Inquisition, and the "little people" that make up her network.
 

You mean the idea that it's more important if people are treated fairly, than what hat you're wearing to the next Salon?
 

Do you have some examples of this, or is it more that she challenges your notion of "privileged"?
 

I'll wait until you show me some examples of profiteering. None of the War Table quests directly benefit her, but most do benefit both the little people she talks about, and the Inquisition. If we take the same view of the pranks thing as this post does of her, it would seem she's kind of superficial. However, the dialog leading up to the pranks, and the things she refuses to do, such as Leliana's locked box, gives a whole different perspective on who she is, and what she's about. She knows, full well, that people are going to be, at the least, annoyed with her. But she does it anyway? Was it to be selfish? No. In fact, it's one of the most selfless things I can recall seeing her do. She sets herself up as the bad guy, to try to take everyone's mind off the big picture for a even a few minutes. Is anyone that's condemning her character for this condemning themselves for the Josephine balcony talk? It is, after all, the exact same principle.

All in all, I find her a great character. She's tons of fun to drag around with Cass, who seems to have a genuine soft spot for her. Based entirely on party banter, anyway.

 

I hate multi-quote answer fests so I'll just answer simply without individually attempting to correct your each and every statement because thats pointless and I'm not here to change your mind.

 

Just about any of the companions could be accused of having a broader understanding of the world they're living in than Sera. Sera rejects anything she doesn't agree with outright as unimportant. Anything that doesn't fit her little cockeyed world view as irrelevant and anything that is of no benefit to her as useless.

 

Bringing up the war table missions that give the Inquisition benefits as some kind of evidence that shes selfless is kind of funny as her own dialogue, in many situations, indicates that she doesn't give a flip what the Inquisition achieves as long as she gets her bit off the top.

 

She is, obviously, at her best with people that romance her, and she obviously works well for people that are willing to try, so shes written as a character that makes sense to some personalities and doesn't to others.

 

Far as the difference between people being treated fairly and my hat at the next salon, I don't get what you're referring to. Sera uses the excuse of ensuring equal treatment to benefit herself. She doesn't care about the little people any more than she cares about the big hats...she just wants to come out on top no matter what. To take an analogous example, it would be like if Anonymous took down every big bank in America and reset the credit records of everyone in the world....then after having wrecked the entire world economy, sat there attempting to tell people that it was just fine that they took a few billion dollars for themselves because at least they were helping out the 99%.