1123 réponses à ce sujet

[Ap0crypha]

@Kefka: This is a Sera hate thread (essentially). Of course you're going to see labels like "malicious" and "racist" thrown at her. She has a thread for people who love her, too--I hate her, so I don't hang out over there. If you love her, then don't come to a thread for people who hate her and get upset that they do, in fact, hate her.

[Kimarous]

Having watched the "cookies" scene... I really don't find Sera very sympathetic.

 

 

Yeah, the lady who took you in screwed up in some areas - but YOU are the one who made the jump from "That guy doesn't like elves" to "I'm going to personally make him miserable for not liking elves." That is on YOUR head - that was YOUR choice; don't blame her for it. Also, that specific detail is enough to label the woman who raised you, put a roof over your head, fed you, etc. a "w***e"? I don't care what issues you have - you do NOT talk that way about family!

[Nathair Nimheil]

Your analogies comparing the Dalish to the KKK are growing dangerously close to outright trolling.

Oh for crying out loud, seriously? Seriously?!

I did NOT compare the Dalish to the KKK. I compared my feeling for a particular religio/ideological group composed of people of "my race" with Sera's feeling for a particular religio/ideological group composed of people of her race.

[Seraphim24]

I'm not upset actually, I was pretty much done here. I thought I'd correct your mis-impression though. I don't care what you guys have to say about her. Plus the OP was just "Does anyone else think Sera is.." and my answer is no. She's different, there's a lot of crazy things going on, but a like a bad person? No, no more than any other DA:I character. 

 

I'm also just noting that you guys apparently are here to care about that, and your continual stream of venom is odd considering you are trying to portray her as the venomous one. From my objective perspective you guys have her beat 100 to 1 on the insult count. 

[Ap0crypha]

@Kefka: She's a fictional character. Her feelings aren't hurt.

[KiwiQuiche]

Great, have fun Kefka. Also, you accuse us of venom but do the same. Strange, birds of a feather huh? But enough of that, as Ap0 said she's a fictional character and hating a nasty fictional character isn't some mindless act of hate.

 

 

@Kimarous, yeah Sera did the big leap to "I'll take her word hate completely on this one guy". Just because a guardian says something doesn't exempt you from the blame of the actions you took as 'revenge.'

[Xilizhra]

Oh for crying out loud, seriously? Seriously?!

I did NOT compare the Dalish to the KKK. I compared my feeling for a particular religio/ideological group composed of people of "my race" with Sera's feeling for a particular religio/ideological group composed of people of her race.

As you like, but a more accurate analogy would be something like an Iraqi Shia Arab saying that they hate all Egyptian Sunni Arabs.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Yeah, the lady who took you in screwed up in some areas - but YOU are the one who made the jump from "That guy doesn't like elves" to "I'm going to personally make him miserable for not liking elves." That is on YOUR head - that was YOUR choice; don't blame her for it. Also, that specific detail is enough to label the woman who raised you, put a roof over your head, fed you, etc. a "******"? I don't care what issues you have - you do NOT talk that way about family!

And we've come alllllll the way back to this. Again.

 

OK then...

You do realize that Sera was not yet the evil dark lord of the Sith at this point, right? This was before she took up her hobby of tossing puppies into the woodchipper, right? At the time the story takes place she was a child listening to her Mum. A child. A homeless child taken into foster care to escape criminal charges.

 

Riddle: When is it cool to blame the troubled child and to hold her up to the standards we would demand of an adult while at the same time giving a complete ethical pass to the foster parent who lied and misled her to aggrandize herself?

 

A: When I hate Sera.

[Vandicus]

 

Yeah, the lady who took you in screwed up in some areas - but YOU are the one who made the jump from "That guy doesn't like elves" to "I'm going to personally make him miserable for not liking elves." That is on YOUR head - that was YOUR choice; don't blame her for it. Also, that specific detail is enough to label the woman who raised you, put a roof over your head, fed you, etc. a "w***e"? I don't care what issues you have - you do NOT talk that way about family!

 

Sera does attack herself/her idea as stupid in the part. To me she seems to be trying, within her limited capacity, to address her past issues. Language used I don't think is necessarily a good metric of how a person feels towards their family. Plenty of families use harsh language and regret or don't fully mean what they say.

 

To me it seems she's bitter about that particular incident, but doesn't truly hate the one who raised her. Ultimately, while the mother thought she was only saying a white lie to make Sera think she was baking her cookies, the mother did unwittingly suggest to Sera that it was normal, acceptable, for people not to like her because she was an elf. That had to hurt. I can see why she's angry about that, even though her mother wasn't trying to hurt her.

[Nathair Nimheil]

As you like, but a more accurate analogy would be something like an Iraqi Shia Arab saying that they hate all Egyptian Sunni Arabs.

And what, and we're just not supposed to notice that, in your striving for an simple unbiased analogy, you casually added two different nationalities to the issue of ideology. I suppose we're also supposed to accept that substituting two rival sects currently involved in explosive and inflammatory conflict in real life were the only possible idological parallels you could come up with rather than some pairing like Mormons vs Pagans or Catholics vs The Universe People or Anglicans vs The Church of Euthanasia.

 

 

Edit:Sorry, posted before I was done.

[Ashagar]

As a Character I dislike her and find both her annoying and somewhat flat in character but then I prefer Cassandra, Varric and Solas whose interactions with each are pure gold.

[KiwiQuiche]

Sera does attack herself/her idea as stupid in the part. To me she seems to be trying, within her limited capacity, to address her past issues. Language used I don't think is necessarily a good metric of how a person feels towards their family. Plenty of families use harsh language and regret or don't fully mean what they say.

 

To me it seems she's bitter about that particular incident, but doesn't truly hate the one who raised her. Ultimately, while the mother thought she was only saying a white lie to make Sera think she was baking her cookies, the mother did unwittingly suggest to Sera that it was normal, acceptable, for people not to like her because she was an elf. That had to hurt. I can see why she's angry about that, even though her mother wasn't trying to hurt her.

 

At least she admits her faults with that issue, which proves she can address her problems; the problem is she refuses to accept the problems she herself made in her personality. With this issue with the baker, she can accept both her and her mother were at fault however se refuses to accept any other flaws in herself that are her own making which is one of her major problems of stagnation.

 

True; trying to hate family is tough, regardless of what they do to you.

[Xilizhra]

And what, and we're just not supposed to notice that, in your striving for an simple unbiased analogy, you casually added two different nationalities to the issue of ideology.

 

Actually, that was for your benefit. But if you like, then I'll just say it's like a Shia Arab hating all Sunni Arabs.

[Vit246]

I want to say something about the relationship between Dalish and City Elves.

The hostility and negativity behind it are overblown. And the Dalish aren't the only ones with a "sense of superiority". Just as some Dalish look down upon and pity the City Elves as a backwards kin who gave up everything they had left and then became 2nd-class citizens, some City Elves look down on the Dalish as barbarians who ought to "modernize" by joining the not-so-bad Alienages.

And what about the parts where City Elves leave the Alienages to join the Dalish for better lives and the Dalish Clans are prepared to accept new Dalish converts and provide support and culture and a bit of pride?

[Vandicus]

At least she admits her faults with that issue, which proves she can address her problems; the problem is she refuses to accept the problems she herself made in her personality. With this issue with the baker, she can accept both her and her mother were at fault however se refuses to accept any other flaws in herself that are her own making which is one of her major problems of stagnation.

 

True; trying to hate family is tough, regardless of what they do to you.

 

 

Being inflexible and rather defensive is part of her character though. In characters that are more good or lawful aligned this method of thinking is often seen as a positive. Strong inflexible beliefs in a CN character has quite interesting aspects to it that I find worthwhile.

 

In general I like characters who are going to do their own thing or hold their own beliefs(right or wrong), player character be damned, though.

 

 

I want to say something about the relationship between Dalish and City Elves.

The hostility and negativity behind it are overblown. And the Dalish aren't the only ones with a "sense of superiority". Just as some Dalish look down upon and pity the City Elves as a backwards kin who gave up everything they had left and then became 2nd-class citizens, some City Elves look down on the Dalish as barbarians who ought to "modernize" by joining the not-so-bad Alienages.

And what about the parts where City Elves leave the Alienages to join the Dalish for better lives and the Dalish Clans are prepared to accept new Dalish converts and provide support and culture and a bit of pride?

 

Its not really about a pissing contest of who's the better group of people overall. Its mostly that they have bad blood between them so its pretty natural for members of either group to have distaste for members of the other group. It is perfectly plausible(perhaps more so than people who always align with our 21st century views).

[Xilizhra]

And what, and we're just not supposed to notice that, in your striving for an simple unbiased analogy, you casually added two different nationalities to the issue of ideology. I suppose we're also supposed to accept that substituting two rival sects currently involved in explosive and inflammatory conflict in real life were the only possible idological parallels you could come up with rather than some pairing like Mormons vs Pagans or Catholics vs The Universe People or Anglicans vs The Church of Euthanasia.

 

 

Edit:Sorry, posted before I was done.

Explosive and inflammatory conflict... like, say, the Andrastians and Dalish have been in many many times?

 

But I'm not sure where you're going with this. Is being an ethnoreligious bigot more acceptable when the religion is small? And I will say "ethno" because of how many times Sera refers to "elfy" as a bad quality.

[ApostateHumor]

I feel like this whole comparing who hates who thing in comparison to Sera & elves is getting simply off the track at this point.

 

Sera's elf issues seem to be partially internalized racism of a sort. She did have the luck of being raised by humans but knew that as an elf - as with the whole baker thing - that elves weren't well thought upon, and likely took some of that into herself. And then add atop that her whole continual unquestioning Chantry rhetoric concerning magic (magic is dangerous but dismissing everything as demons/etc does no one any good - ignorance is the most dangerous thing of all) etc, with the ancient elves being known for magic & the Dalish known to use it still, that just further serves to have her against them.

 

Not that the Dalish elves are perfect (look at what we find out all that they've gotten wrong, it's laugh worthy if it wasn't so darn pathetic) and the city elves have it super suck as well. But she certainly got a much better raising than most and it makes her seem like she looks down on her fellow elves that never had that kind of luck/don't want to live in the alienage (that she also clearly wanted to avoid). What her mother did was not excusable because it was just not right on any level and it certainly did not help with Sera and her growth or developing as a child.

[KiwiQuiche]

 

Being inflexible and rather defensive is part of her character though. In characters that are more good or lawful aligned this method of thinking is often seen as a positive. Strong inflexible beliefs in a CN character has quite interesting aspects to it that I find worthwhile.

 

In general I like characters who are going to do their own thing or hold their own beliefs(right or wrong), player character be damned, though.

 

 

My main beef with Sera is, unlike other strong-belief characters, I think she doesn't have enough positive traits to make up for her negative ones.

 

Merrill is a good example since no matter what you do she will not give up bloodmagic and will angrily argue and stand up to you if you start raging at her about. She is completely willing to hold her own if someone tries to insult her beliefs or current path in life, regardless of what anyone, PC or her own Clan, says. However even if you are against Bloodmagic and her Eluvian task, Merrill has enough positive traits I didn't hate her the same way I do Sera. I know many people didn't like her tweed personality or child-like marvel of cities, but she was still a kind and considerate person when it came down to it which I felt made up for her Bloodmagic attitude and her refusal to listen.

 

The same could be said for Sten and Morrigan; they won't let go of their own beliefs i.e the Qun and self-power, however they have positive traits that they express that help give them a greater depth of character rather than a simple "arrogant hypocritical bigot" attitude that Sera constantly expresses. She isn't even a good friend which even freaking Sten can express if you gain his respect.

[Vandicus]

Explosive and inflammatory conflict... like, say, the Andrastians and Dalish have been in many many times?

 

But I'm not sure where you're going with this. Is being an ethnoreligious bigot more acceptable when the religion is small? And I will say "ethno" because of how many times Sera refers to "elfy" as a bad quality.

I actually don't have much issue with the Dalish hating the Chantry or specific human nations. They are ancestral enemies after all, that's pretty normal.

 

Once they take it up to the level of hunting people, that's inexcusable. To kill a human for 'poaching' in an area the Dalish happen to be camped nearby is just as reprehensible as mugging and killing a Dalish for daring to set foot in a city.

[Nathair Nimheil]

But I'm not sure where you're going with this. Is being an ethnoreligious bigot more acceptable when the religion is small? And I will say "ethno" because of how many times Sera refers to "elfy" as a bad quality.

As I said, the point is that this is not racism. She is not a "self-hating elf". This is an ideological matter, pure and simple, she is opposed to a particular ideology and by extension to the people who adopt and live it, not because of their race but because of what they do.

 

And before you can argue that the Dalish are all kittens and rainbows or whatever; that is not the point. I am not saying she is right to be contemptuous of the Dalish (although I do certainly lean in that direction myself) but that in doing so she is not therefore racist or hypocritical or evil or a cannibal or any of the other invective characterizations that have been hurled.

[Vandicus]

My main beef with Sera is, unlike other strong-belief characters, I think she doesn't have enough positive traits to make up for her negative ones.

 

Merrill is a good example since no matter what you do she will not give up bloodmagic and will angrily argue and stand up to you if you start raging at her about. She is completely willing to hold her own if someone tries to insult her beliefs or current path in life, regardless of what anyone, PC or her own Clan, says. However even if you are against Bloodmagic and her Eluvian task, Merrill has enough positive traits I didn't hate her the same way I do Sera. I know many people didn't like her tweed personality or child-like marvel of cities, but she was still a kind and considerate person when it came down to it which I felt made up for her Bloodmagic attitude and her refusal to listen.

 

The same could be said for Sten and Morrigan; they won't let go of their own beliefs i.e the Qun and self-power, however they have positive traits that they express that help give them a greater depth of character rather than a simple "arrogant hypocritical bigot" attitude that Sera constantly expresses. She isn't even a good friend which even freaking Sten can express if you gain his respect.

 

DA:I in particularly seemed to lack moments where companions would actively turn against or sabotage the PC. For the most parts their views and goals are aligned, stop the Breach, stop Corypheus. Everyone is consistently willing to subordinate their desires and opinions for the leader.

 

Sera's the kind of character who leads to strong conflicts of characters, which I think make for good story telling.

 

Reminds me a bit of Ander's actions at the end of DA2. My first play through, very pro-liberty and pro-mage, was best buds with Anders, he was always in my party. Then boom goes the Chantry, I was horrified and appalled at what he had done and killed him for it. It was one of the more emotional moments in any Bioware game I've played(only one to top it was Mordin's sacrifice in ME3, although obviously for different reasons).

 

Even when a character's negatives(from my PoV) so strongly outweighs their positives that I'd go so far as to kill them, they can still add to the experience.

 

*EDIT

 

Sera seems to skirt the line in the opposite direction from Anders. She's got lots of minor negatives, but not really any big reason to kill her or stop using her to fight the big threats present in Inquisition. Pragmatically, there are reasons to keep her in that to me would outweigh personal issues.

[Xilizhra]

As I said, the point is that this is not racism. She is not a "self-hating elf". This is an ideological matter, pure and simple, she is opposed to a particular ideology and by extension to the people who adopt and live it, not because of their race but because of what they do.

And speaks of it solely in terms of race. "Elfy" everything.

 

 

And before you can argue that the Dalish are all kittens and rainbows or whatever; that is not the point. I am not saying she is right to be contemptuous of the Dalish (although I do certainly lean in that direction myself) but that in doing so she is not therefore racist or hypocritical or evil or a cannibal or any of the other invective characterizations that have been hurled.

But bigoted nonetheless, moreso than anyone else in the party.

[KiwiQuiche]

DA:I in particularly seemed to lack moments where companions would actively turn against or sabotage the PC. For the most parts their views and goals are aligned, stop the Breach, stop Corypheus. Everyone is consistently willing to subordinate their desires and opinions for the leader.

 

Sera's the kind of character who leads to strong conflicts of characters, which I think make for good story telling.

 

Reminds me a bit of Ander's actions at the end of DA2. My first play through, very pro-liberty and pro-mage, was best buds with Anders, he was always in my party. Then boom goes the Chantry, I was horrified and appalled at what he had done and killed him for it. It was one of the more emotional moments in any Bioware game I've played(only one to top it was Mordin's sacrifice in ME3, although obviously for different reasons).

 

Even when a character's negatives(from my PoV) so strongly outweighs their positives that I'd go so far as to kill them, they can still add to the experience.

 

Well when the sky splits open it's kinda big deal and being a petty ass (Sera hrr) doesn't help when you have a crazy Magister on the loose.

 

I think the issue with the comparison is that Anders has legit reason for his behaviour since he's been mostly driven mad by Vengence who's completely screwed both of them up. Sera is just a nasty ass because she wants to be and doesn't really care about anything barring herself since she's already proven most of the "little guy" speeches from her is just lip service.

 

But you admit you liked Anders until he screwed everything up and went Kaboom. Sera doesn't have any real positive quailties.

[Vandicus]

Well when the sky splits open it's kinda big deal and being a petty ass (Sera hrr) doesn't help when you have a crazy Magister on the loose.

 

I think the issue with the comparison is that Anders has legit reason for his behaviour since he's been mostly driven mad by Vengence who's completely screwed both of them up. Sera is just a nasty ass because she wants to be and doesn't really care about anything barring herself since she's already proven most of the "little guy" speeches from her is just lip service.

 

But you admit you liked Anders until he screwed everything up and went Kaboom. Sera doesn't have any real positive quailties.

Sera's a good archer and brings the Red Jenny contact network(which through the war table system seems to have been useful in finding several Venatori not discovered by my advisors previously).

 

I don't have to like every soldier serving in the Inquisition.

[Nathair Nimheil]

And speaks of it solely in terms of race. "Elfy" everything.

That is an artefact of the situation. The Dalish hold themselves forth as the True Way of being Elves and it is, without question, that to which she is referring. This is explicit when she discusses elves who are not too elfy. They remain 100% elf by race, so it is obviously not race she is referring to.
 

But bigoted nonetheless, moreso than anyone else in the party.

No, not really.She is strongly and outspokenly opinionated but tolerant within her ethical boundaries. The two are not the same.