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[KiwiQuiche]

Sera's a good archer and brings the Red Jenny contact network(which through the war table system seems to have been useful in finding several Venatori not discovered by my advisors previously).

 

I don't have to like every soldier serving in the Inquisition.

 

Nah, Varric is better and not as much of an ass as she is. And Red Jenny doesn't really do much, beside give you bees and a few war table quests. Why did we get the grossest Red Jenny operative? I always wanted to know more about it but Sera is just bluuurgh.

[KaiserShep]

I don't really care about her war table stuff, since she's still a fun combatant to bring around, I think. There's Varric, but I like her Tempest abilities.

[Vandicus]

Nah, Varric is better and not as much of an ass as she is. And Red Jenny doesn't really do much, beside give you bees and a few war table quests. Why did we get the grossest Red Jenny operative? I always wanted to know more about it but Sera is just bluuurgh.

 

The War table quests are directly related to the Venatori however, like the Venatori caravan that Leliana and the rest completely missed.

 

I'd take Dalish shem-haters and Human-supremacist Orlesian nobles too if they'll fight demons and Venatori.

 

Their personal beliefs aren't all that big a concern from a practical perspective, as long as they serve.

[Xilizhra]

That is an artefact of the situation. The Dalish hold themselves forth as the True Way of being Elves and it is, without question, that to which she is referring. This is explicit when she discusses elves who are not too elfy. They remain 100% elf by race, so it is obviously not race she is referring to.

I wonder how well this would go when discussing how "black" someone might be and why being so would be bad.

 

 

No, not really.She is strongly and outspokenly opinionated but tolerant within her ethical boundaries. The two are not the same.

When those ethical boundaries include "I hate anyone who worships these gods," I would say that they are.

[KiwiQuiche]

The War table quests are directly related to the Venatori however, like the Venatori caravan that Leliana and the rest completely missed.

 

I'd take Dalish shem-haters and Human-supremacist Orlesian nobles too if they'll fight demons and Venatori.

 

Their personal beliefs aren't all that big a concern from a practical perspective, as long as they serve.

 

 

Nah, bigots can go fight away from my main quarters/group and prevent them from giving the Inquisition a bad name since racism is already an issue it in.

 

And by that Sera should at least be professional enough not to go blurting it all over the place.

[Vandicus]

Nah, bigots can go fight away from my main quarters/group and prevent them from giving the Inquisition a bad name since racism is already an issue it in.

 

And by that Sera should at least be professional enough not to go blurting it all over the place.

A bad name? I get the impression that most of the allies of the Inquisition aren't terribly happy that the Herald is non-human(I'm curious as to how this will play out when I do my human playthrough).

 

I do think Sera's views on the Dalish aren't uncommon, amongst Inquisition allies or the ranks of its human forces. In Thedas, it is seemingly more common to hold intolerant religious or cultural views than not. 

 

From a pragmatic perspective, rejecting soldiers to stop a world-ending event on the basis of their intolerance in a world that is similarly intolerant, strikes me as impractically idealistic.

[KaiserShep]

No one really says much when you're human. Sera will, only because she thinks that other people might give the Inquisitor guff about it if you pursue a relationship with her.

[KiwiQuiche]

A bad name? I get the impression that most of the allies of the Inquisition aren't terribly happy that the Herald is non-human(I'm curious as to how this will play out when I do my human playthrough).

 

I do think Sera's views on the Dalish aren't uncommon, amongst Inquisition allies or the ranks of its human forces. In Thedas, it is seemingly more common to hold intolerant religious or cultural views than not. 

 

From a pragmatic perspective, rejecting soldiers to stop a world-ending event on the basis of their intolerance in a world that is similarly intolerant, strikes me as impractically idealistic.

 

They aren't, but my Inquisitor doesn't tolerate that kind of racist garbage from random nobles or even her allies, much less people whom are supposed to be companions.

 

It may not be 'umcommon' but that doesn't mean you say it 24/7 and then throw a hissy fit if someone calls you out on your crappy behaviour.

 

I didn't say that, I just said I don't want her near the inner council if she's going to be such a blind stuboorn moron. She can go fight in some dark alley if thats the case.

[Vandicus]

They aren't, but my Inquisitor doesn't tolerate that kind of racist garbage from random nobles or even her allies, much less people whom are supposed to be companions.

 

It may not be 'umcommon' but that doesn't mean you say it 24/7 and then throw a hissy fit if someone calls you out on your crappy behaviour.

 

I didn't say that, I just said I don't want her near the inner council if she's going to be such a blind stuboorn moron. She can go fight in some dark alley if thats the case.

 

We aren't really allowed to confront most of our allies about their views on culture, religion or race. Were we allowed to play civil rights activist, I imagine the Inquisition would never have gotten enough support to stand a fighting chance in the setting.

 

The "Inner Circle" seems vaguely defined. Unlike advisors, she's not in a position of actual command, of diplomats,spies, or soldiers. She does act as representative of the assets she brings to the Inquisition, but doesn't get to direct the use of Inquisition resources(although she can bring matters to the attention of the advisors). None of the Inner Circle seem to be given command positions, though Cassandra comes up as a potential stand-in for Cullen. 

 

If you decide not to spend time with her, she is little more than one more hanger-on of the Inquisition whose resources you are using.

[KiwiQuiche]

We aren't really allowed to confront most of our allies about their views on culture, religion or race. Were we allowed to play civil rights activist, I imagine the Inquisition would never have gotten enough support to stand a fighting chance in the setting.

 

The "Inner Circle" seems vaguely defined. Unlike advisors, she's not in a position of actual command, of diplomats,spies, or soldiers. She does act as representative of the assets she brings to the Inquisition, but doesn't get to direct the use of Inquisition resources(although she can bring matters to the attention of the advisors). None of the Inner Circle seem to be given command positions, though Cassandra comes up as a potential stand-in for Cullen. 

 

If you decide not to spend time with her, she is little more than one more hanger-on of the Inquisition whose resources you are using.

 

The problem is none of the other companions are as bigoted and arrogant as Sera is so there isn't really a need to call them out.

 

Cass is still considered the Right Hand though, even if she chose to go the 'front line soldier' route, which was kinda her job in the first place tbh.

 

Yeah, still sucks our first Red Jenny encounter is with the likes of her and she's the lesbian romance tho.

[Vandicus]

The problem is none of the other companions are as bigoted and arrogant as Sera is so there isn't really a need to call them out.

 

Cass is still considered the Right Hand though, even if she chose to go the 'front line soldier' route, which was kinda her job in the first place tbh.

 

Yeah, still sucks our first Red Jenny encounter is with the likes of her and she's the lesbian romance tho.

 

By allies I meant political allies. The Orlesian nobles and various royal and noble families that send their support to the Inquisition.

 

Mostly meant to say that companions, though part of the Inner Circle, aren't in command positions. Her judgement is wacky(and I wouldn't put her in command of a squad of Inquisition soldiers), but there's no reason for her to ever end up as one. Its not really possible for her to harm the Inquisition as one of its allies through lack of competence in any areas that she's going to be used for.

 

I actually thought the Red Jennys(ies?) were just criminals with good PR. Sera's a lot less ruthless and manipulating than I expected from a criminal organization. Having the Chaotic Neutral with the 'edgier'(those meant to provoke conflict) traits as the only companion romance for lesbians is unfortunate. It would be good if companion romances with less controversial views were available to all.

[KiwiQuiche]

By allies I meant political allies. The Orlesian nobles and various royal and noble families that send their support to the Inquisition.

 

Mostly meant to say that companions, though part of the Inner Circle, aren't in command positions. Her judgement is wacky(and I wouldn't put her in command of a squad of Inquisition soldiers), but there's no reason for her to ever end up as one. Its not really possible for her to harm the Inquisition as one of its allies through lack of competence in any areas that she's going to be used for.

 

I actually thought the Red Jennys(ies?) were just criminals with good PR. Sera's a lot less ruthless and manipulating than I expected from a criminal organization. Having the Chaotic Neutral with the 'edgier'(those meant to provoke conflict) traits as the only companion romance for lesbians is unfortunate. It would be good if companion romances with less controversial views were available to all.

 

Oh, my main beef was the fact if your inner council (by which I include the companions since you take them with you on tasks) still reflect who the Inquisition is; they're essentially the 'head'. And having an intolerant bigot on board just sends a bad message I feel.

 

I think Red Jenny is like the word moose- both plural and singular lol "There's a pack of Red Jenny down there!" Or at least how I use it XD

 

At least Izzy had a lot of positive traits that made up for her mistakes or bad ones. Sera is just nasty all around.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I wonder how well this would go when discussing how "black" someone might be and why being so would be bad.

Living the Dalish way is not the same as having dark skin, that is why I said it was an artefact of the situation. Elves are a fictional people with two distinct ideologies, drawing parallels to actual human "races" is unlikely to be applicable or illustrative but it is very likely to be inflammatory and misleading.
 

When those ethical boundaries include "I hate anyone who worships these gods," I would say that they are.

That's quite simplistic. In Thedas worshipping a particular god or gods is not like the difference between the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 and the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912. Gods in Thedas are real and the god(s) you worship speaks volumes about who you are. Freedom of religion takes on a whole new meaning in a world where gods, spirits and demons are real individuals you might run into on a walk through the woods.

[Opag Zirsk]

And may I point out that Hate is a rather strong word? Disapproves of, yes. She doesn't HATE the Dalish. She just thinks they're stupid and humorously self-important. She's an Andrastian, they have their own religion. It's more of a question of religion than it is of race. 

 

 

And I've seen plenty of relationships end based around religion. Going through again, I'm really not seeing her as all THAT bad. Disrespectful? Yes. Static? Ehhhhhh arguments could be made. Selfish? She admits it. Bigoted? Who wouldn't be? Andrastians are a little bad about that sort of thing. 

 

She's not a good person, but she admits to trying to do the right thing. She greatly approves of choosing "What is right" instead of the other options when you become Inquisitor. But whether she's a b**** or not depends entirely on the person playing the game. So yes. This thread is important.

[Xilizhra]

Living the Dalish way is not the same as having dark skin, that is why I said it was an artefact of the situation. Elves are a fictional people with two distinct ideologies, drawing parallels to actual human "races" is unlikely to be applicable or illustrative but it is very likely to be inflammatory and misleading.

More than two, given that some are loyal to Tevinter, etc. However, it's the condition of being an elf that's similar to having dark skin, and it's being an elf that Sera is attacking. If she doesn't mean to do so, she should find a different word.

 

 

That's quite simplistic. In Thedas worshipping a particular god or gods is not like the difference between the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879 and the Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912. Gods in Thedas are real and the god(s) you worship speaks volumes about who you are. Freedom of religion takes on a whole new meaning in a world where gods, spirits and demons are real individuals you might run into on a walk through the woods.

Except... no. The Maker isn't anywhere to be found, and the Creators weren't anywhere to be found for thousands of years. Only the Old Gods had truly empirical evidence for their existence.

 

Not to mention that I don't see, again, how that makes religious bigotry good regardless.

[robertthebard]

Explosive and inflammatory conflict... like, say, the Andrastians and Dalish have been in many many times?
 
But I'm not sure where you're going with this. Is being an ethnoreligious bigot more acceptable when the religion is small? And I will say "ethno" because of how many times Sera refers to "elfy" as a bad quality.

You do bring up an interesting, and relative point: How often the Andrastians and the Dalish have slugged it out. I can't imagine where any Andrastian might learn to hate the Dalish, can you?

[Xilizhra]

You do bring up an interesting, and relative point: How often the Andrastians and the Dalish have slugged it out. I can't imagine where any Andrastian might learn to hate the Dalish, can you?

Which wouldn't be a good thing regardless.

[Nathair Nimheil]

However, it's the condition of being an elf that's similar to having dark skin, and it's being an elf that Sera is attacking.

No, it is explicitly not. That means they come right out ant make the distinction in game. As I already mentioned, she says that certain elves are "not too elfy" based entirely on their behaviour. She is not referring to race but to behaving like a stereotypical elf.
 

I don't see, again, how that makes religious bigotry good regardless.

Stop equating it with simple religious bigotry here in the real world. There are similarities, but they are not the same thing.

[robertthebard]

Which wouldn't be a good thing regardless.

Hate is never a good thing. However, I can't recall reading anything in the Chantry literature in game that said anything like "The Dalish are cool, and we should treat them better". You got anything?

To me, inventing reasons, which a few have done here, such as "you can't romance Sera and save the world because she'll screw up your Inquisition" is every bit as bad as what Sera is accused of here. I can't figure out, for the life of me, which is why, btw, I keep reading, hoping for enlightenment, people feel like they have rationalize or justify disliking her. The truth would suffice, she's abrasive, and non-apologetic for it. Some people find that unattractive, or, at the least, not appealing. That's cool, I can 100% get behind that. I find it appealing, but I always did prefer my women to be able to stand on their own. She's good for that.

[Xilizhra]

Stop equating it with simple religious bigotry here in the real world. There are similarities, but they are not the same thing.

Given that the gods never show up, I hardly see how. I also hardly see how the gods showing up would make it better; it might make it more similar to nationalist bigotry, but does that actually help?

 

 

Hate is never a good thing. However, I can't recall reading anything in the Chantry literature in game that said anything like "The Dalish are cool, and we should treat them better". You got anything?

One reason why the Chantry's practices suck.

[robertthebard]

Given that the gods never show up, I hardly see how. I also hardly see how the gods showing up would make it better; it might make it more similar to nationalist bigotry, but does that actually help?
 
 
One reason why the Chantry's practices suck.

Do the Dalish have some hidden Codex that says they should treat Andrastians better?

[Nathair Nimheil]

Which wouldn't be a good thing regardless.

Yeah, all the members of all the factions in Thedas have always gotten along so well - except for Sera, why can't she just play nice?

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, all the members of all the factions in Thedas have always gotten along so well - except for Sera, why can't she just play nice?

Well, the Inquisition's companions do, for the most part. Vivienne excepted.

[robertthebard]

Well, the Inquisition's companions do, for the most part. Vivienne excepted.

Which is kind of ironic, since, with the exception of Viv, they all get along with Sera.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Given that the gods never show up, I hardly see how.

Really? You actually think religious conflict in a magical, high-fantasy setting with multiple pantheons of actual demons, spirits and real, living gods is exactly the same as friction between, say, Catholics and Protestants? Seriously?
 

I also hardly see how the gods showing up would make it better; it might make it more similar to nationalist bigotry, but does that actually help?

Depends on what you mean by "nationalist bigotry". That is a very loaded term. Are you talking about something like Anti-Americanism in Canada or are you talking about the way Palestinians feel about Israelis?