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[robertthebard]

The cutscene where after Sera kills the noble while you are speaking with him and you go back to her room and she disrespects you and gets in your face: if this game allowed you to actually be aligned to chaotic, I would have killed her right then and there. There is the option to tell her to get out, you are not putting up with this garbage anymore. The ONLY reason I did not do this was because I wanted to see how her character developed. It didn't. She was still the same person at the end that she was from the moment I met her.
 
She only stays loyal to you if you put up with her Red Jenny garbage or you allow her to kill nobles on sight. She mocks your leadership and decisions constantly and really only sees you as a way to prop up her Red Jenny nonsense.
 
As you can tell, I really despised her as a character.

My Inquisitor that romanced her? She was a Noble, and never once did I get turned into wine. In fact, I can think of only two nobles that she killed the entire game, that wasn't while we were in a group, gasp, killing nobles. The first was plotting to kill me, and the second was plotting to kill her. I'm trying, really hard, to feel like neither one was justified. I'm trying really hard to pretend like, if given the chance, I wouldn't have killed the first one, but really, I just can't. All she did was save me a fight on both of them, with the added benefit of "Best use of the Murder Knife Ever" award.

[Rixkey]

I only have one problem with this entire post: She's been making her feelings about this subject clear from the very beginning. Asking for "She needs to compromise" is actually every bit as self serving as what you're saying she is for what she actually does. All those little, or not so little Sera Disapproves, to whatever degree are intended to tell you one thing, she disapproves of that course of action. Dialog from the moment you meet her until this point, if it's brought up, is abundantly clear. There should be no doubt in any player's mind that once she finds out that the brand that the Dalish have been holding up as a mark of superiority to the rest of the elves is a slave brand, that she's not going to think it's hilarious. It's not like she's been supporting mages and elves all the way through the game, and then blindsided someone. She's consistently against that stuff the entire game.

 

[That's acknowledging there's something about the relationship she doesn't like and they need to figure it out or maybe they need to stop if they can't.]

 

So I didn't say she had to compromise? My issue was her using emotionally manipulative tactics. I didn't have an issue with her wanting to end the relationship because the Inquisitor believes "elf-y things", because there are worse things to end relationships over than fundamental differences in culture/belief. Sometimes people can work those things out. We don't even get the option with Sera, but that's fine, because sometimes people can't. I had an issue in the way she went about it and how she treats the Inquisitor during that scene. 

 

I also didn't talk about the Dalish markings. I was talking specifically about her reaction to an Inquisitor not 100% agreeing everyone was a demon-worshipper at the Temple of Mythal, so I'm assuming that part of your post is in regards to things other people are saying. 

[Nathair Nimheil]

It isn't an opening to a conversation, it isn't an invitation to work this out the way people generally would in a healthy relationship. it's a warning designed to attack the person's emotional connection to you in order to make the person on the other end of the conversation drop everything and backpedal. Sera doesn't appear to have an interest in working things out, or in dealing with bumps in a relationship.

And here we differ profoundly. You, clearly, are thinking of this in terms of what you want. She is not asking you to backpedal because, as you say, she in not interested in working this out or dealing with what you (very dismissively) term "bumps in the relationship". This, for Sera, is a deal-breaker. Now whether or not you agree that this particular issue should be a deal-breaker is completely beside the point, everyone gets to decide that for themselves. I know people who won't date people for any number of reasons, because they smoke, believe in god, don't believe in god, eat meat, won't eat meat, and on and on. The point, though, is that this represents such a line-in-the-sand for Sera. You're done, finished, over. That's not manipulation, that's agency and she's not manipulating you, she's dumping you.
 

but with the inclusion of Sera there seems to be a definite pattern in the way he seems to think women in non-straight relationships treat each other and other people and that does make me 'ehhhhh' a little.

Yeah, I think you're reading way, way, WAY too much into this. Remember that a great many people see Sera, once you get to know her, as a very appealing, vulnerable character with the romance being portrayed as rather tender - which kinda shoots your hates-on-lesbian-relationships theory in the eye.
 

Regarding your dig about how I must not like women with agency in regards to that particular scene (under the assumption you were talking to me considering it was in regards to my post): It didn't irritate me. It upset me. Because memories.)

That was not a "dig" and it certainly wasn't an attempt to inflict emotional pain. It wasn't even directed specifically at you.

[Ziegrif]

She tried to shoot me in the face.

Why the hell can't I stab her?

Multiple times?

In the face?

[Nathair Nimheil]

The cutscene where after Sera kills the noble while you are speaking with him and you go back to her room and she disrespects you and gets in your face: if this game allowed you to actually be aligned to chaotic, I would have killed her right then and there.

You do see the hypocrisy there, right?

[robertthebard]

[That's acknowledging there's something about the relationship she doesn't like and they need to figure it out or maybe they need to stop if they can't.]
 
So I didn't say she had to compromise? My issue was her using emotionally manipulative tactics. I didn't have an issue with her wanting to end the relationship because the Inquisitor believes "elf-y things", because there are worse things to end relationships over than fundamental differences in culture/belief. Sometimes people can work those things out. We don't even get the option with Sera, but that's fine, because sometimes people can't. I had an issue in the way she went about it and how she treats the Inquisitor during that scene. 
 
I also didn't talk about the Dalish markings. I was talking specifically about her reaction to an Inquisitor not 100% agreeing everyone was a demon-worshipper at the Temple of Mythal, so I'm assuming that part of your post is in regards to things other people are saying.

It's all one thing though. How many Dalish don't have the tattoos? How many of them don't get them believing they mark them as superior to "flat ears"? It's all one big bundle, and she's made her position on it perfectly clear. As you said, it's a fundamental difference, and if she hasn't "gotten over it" by now, she's not going to. Better to break it off and be done. She may also have to be a bit cruel to do it because, despite the lack of credit she gets here, she truly loves the Inquisitor, but she can't get over that, and so, she burns her bridges.

Weird, it broke the quote tags...

[VelvetStraitjacket]

Love Sera, especially when paired with Viv and Dorian. And I bet she would have some lovely words for all you haters....and arrows, lots of arrows.

[Nathair Nimheil]

She tried to shoot me in the face.

Why the hell can't I stab her?

Multiple times?

In the face?

'Cause she didn't actually try to shoot you in the face? Or did I miss the cutscene where Sera goes postal?

[Tevinter Soldier]

All of this, and all the other posts, because you believe she puts those "little people" in harm's way to "use them to get rich"?

I just want to make sure that this is, indeed, what you believe.

 

not at all She does what she does for fun it seems and to lash out at nobles for whatever the heck her mum did.

the "Jennys" provide her with means. It quite clearly is not about money* it's about revenge. the "little people" merely provide her the vehicle with which achieve that.

 

She puts the little people in harms way because she would put anybody in harms way so long as it allows her to reach her goals which never are "for the people" it's all about her.

 

*i suspect she actually isn't poor at all, nor do believe she grew up all over or was self taught in archery.

her evasiveness and words she uses conflict with her manner of speaking, it may be lack of exposure from the writer, but believe me using the term "little people" just doesn't happen thats what people of means say when their trying to be polite, she comes across as a poser. Someone trying to fit in with the poor people when they aren't. 

[Ziegrif]

'Cause she didn't actually try to shoot you in the face? Or did I miss the cutscene where Sera goes postal?

 

If you drink the cool aid from the well in what pride hath wrought Sera greatly disapproves and the next time you talk to her she's aiming an arrow at your face and thinking you're a demon. "Tried to" or "Threatened to" either way it annoyed me greatly. She trusts me not.~

[robertthebard]

not at all She does what she does for fun it seems and to lash out at nobles for whatever the heck her mum did.
the "Jennys" provide her with means. It quite clearly is not about money* it's about revenge. the "little people" merely provide her the vehicle with which achieve that.
 
She puts the little people in harms way because she would put anybody in harms way so long as it allows her to reach her goals which never are "for the people" it's all about her.

Gotta stop you right here. She doesn't put anyone in harm's way. Those people are already there. She doesn't contact them, they contact her. She doesn't have a spy network to rival Leliana's, she even tells you that. What she has is a "network" of people that don't give a crap about the politics, but know someone's bad. She lays all of this out in dialog, most of it in the first 5 minutes you know her. She's a cog in the wheel, just like all the other Jennies she talks about.
 

*i suspect she actually isn't poor at all, nor do believe she grew up all over or was self taught in archery.
her evasiveness and words she uses conflict with her manner of speaking, it may be lack of exposure from the writer, but believe me using the term "little people" just doesn't happen thats what people of means say when their trying to be polite, she comes across as a poser. Someone trying to fit in with the poor people when they aren't.

Since she can outright tell you she's not self taught, that's quite a revelation. She'll even tell you how she came to be involved with Red Jenny in the first place. Of course, you have to actually talk to her, instead of, and the irony of this doesn't escape me, pulling a Sera, and shutting down anything you don't want to hear, which, in this case, seems to be anything she has to say that reveals there's more to her than "I hate Nobles".

[WildOrchid]

A shame she doesn't delve into her past more. Maybe she was at the alienage when the city elf origin did her thing. Maybe she was one of those children we told a fairy tale to before the rape wedding?

 

My only problem with Sera tbh.

[Rixkey]

And here we differ profoundly. You, clearly, are thinking of this in terms of what you want. She is not asking you to backpedal because, as you say, she in not interested in working this out or dealing with what you (very dismissively) term "bumps in the relationship". This, for Sera, is a deal-breaker. Now whether or not you agree that this particular issue should be a deal-breaker is completely beside the point, everyone gets to decide that for themselves. I know people who won't date people for any number of reasons, because they smoke, believe in god, don't believe in god, eat meat, won't eat meat, and on and on. The point, though, is that this represents such a line-in-the-sand for Sera. You're done, finished, over. That's not manipulation, that's agency and she's not manipulating you, she's dumping you.

 

 

I think my post above yours would have helped clarify a lot of what I meant here. To paraphrase: I don't have an issue with her wanting to end the relationship. I have an issue with the way she went about it. Also, it didn't really read to me as her finishing things. If she had, she would have just finished it. She would have said, "We're done." She didn't. She instead used the heaviest weapon in her arsenal to shut the Inquisitor down and make them do what she wanted. I know that isn't how you see it, but that is how I see it, and I don't think either of us can say we're more right than the other. 

 

I think that's where we profoundly differ. You view that scene as a perfectly reasonable way to end a relationship, I view it as a horrible way to end a relationship. We're both seeing what we want by dint of the fact we're both seeing it through our own different experiences, I think. 

 

That was not a "dig" and it certainly wasn't an attempt to inflict emotional pain. It wasn't even directed specifically at you. 

 

 

Yeah, sorry about that. It was a bit sharper than I intended. I didn't think you intended emotional pain, I was just trying to point out that people have reasons to not like that scene that don't have to do with misogynistic ideas about women having agency, or self-centered ideas about game characters having agency. Like I said, I didn't mind her wanting to end the relationship, I mind how she went about it. The fact it was tacked on to my post made me unsure whether it was more about me or not (hence the parenthesis warning that I was assuming).

 

I don't think we're going to agree. I don't have a problem with your interpretation (the entire bottom paragraph of that huge monstrosity of my original post was all about how I don't have problems with people enjoying the relationship or liking Sera without reservation, that's their prerogative), but I stand by my interpretation, too. Agree to disagree? 

[robertthebard]

If you drink the cool aid from the well in what pride hath wrought Sera greatly disapproves and the next time you talk to her she's aiming an arrow at your face and thinking you're a demon. "Tried to" or "Threatened to" either way it annoyed me greatly. She trusts me not.~

Considering her view on magic that's not surprising. She doesn't understand it, and she doesn't want to, and nobody should be trying to force her to either. She would have called Anders a demon as soon as we met Justice, and as it turns out, she wouldn't have been very far from wrong.

[Nathair Nimheil]

She does what she does for fun it seems and to lash out at nobles for whatever the heck her mum did.

She puts the little people in harms way because she would put anybody in harms way so long as it allows her to reach her goals which never are "for the people" it's all about her.

Well written characters are like puzzles. They give us hints and clues as we roll along enabling us to build a picture of the "inner" character. That's why the details are so vital, the actual words chosen, whether Han shot first, what's with the origami unicorn? You follow these clues and they illuminate the character. If, on the other hand, you just "Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah" the dialogue you might miss the very point of the character which is often the relationship between the inner and the outer. I think there's a truckload of that happening with Sera. She's abrasive at the beginning and from then on some people seem to just cut to the chase and hear "Blah blah blah I'm a ******" whenever she speaks. At least all the very vague, handwavey "And then she says somethin' sorta like... and so I hate her." explanations seem to suggest this.

[Ennai and 54 others]

As Hawke I was able to kill Javaris because he "bothered me".In DAO I was able to kill Lloyd because he was charging for drinks!

 

I lament the fact that I can't do this to Sera in at least one playthrough. it would even be justified because she is a criminal. I miss Hawke .

[Nathair Nimheil]

If you drink the cool aid from the well in what pride hath wrought Sera greatly disapproves and the next time you talk to her she's aiming an arrow at your face and thinking you're a demon. "Tried to" or "Threatened to" either way it annoyed me greatly. She trusts me not.~

And then she explains quite clearly that she thought you might be possessed and that she heard you could get a demon to reveal itself by threatening it. As soon as she understands that it is still you she lowers her weapon.

 

So no, stabbing her repeatedly in the face is not a reasonable response.

[Shelidon]

stabbing her repeatedly in the face is not a reasonable response.

Still, I would like to have the option. Just saying.

[WildOrchid]

If you drink the cool aid from the well in what pride hath wrought Sera greatly disapproves and the next time you talk to her she's aiming an arrow at your face and thinking you're a demon. "Tried to" or "Threatened to" either way it annoyed me greatly. She trusts me not.~

 

This actually happened? Legit? Because i plan on doing that.

 

Still, don't blame her for doing that. She's scared of demons/fade/etc, you know. She has no knowledge of this well thing.

[robertthebard]

As Hawke I was able to kill Javaris because he "bothered me".In DAO I was able to kill Lloyd because he was charging for drinks!
Why can't I do this to Sera? it would even be justified because she is a criminal.

You're going to have a really short game as a dwarf, if you're going to kill all criminals.

[WildOrchid]

Also to all of you with the stabbity stab obsessions:

 

 

 

You need Andraste.

[Barathos]

Also to all of you with the stabbity stab obsessions:

 

 

 

You need Andraste.

As the Herald of Andraste, I can tell you that Sera needs to be stabbed in the face. Why? Because Andraste said so. Because I'm the Herald.

 

Honest opinion, though...

 

Her character annoys the heck out of me. No character development, no real purpose as to why she's there, and her personality is like nails on chalkboard. I'm usually the first to love irritating / annoyingly funny characters, but Sera has gone down a road of zannyness that even I won't tread. 

 

Pretty much every playthrough now is Sera-less. I'll get her in the party then tell her to leave once I get to Haven. 

[Vyndral]

As Hawke I was able to kill Javaris because he "bothered me".In DAO I was able to kill Lloyd because he was charging for drinks!
 
I lament the fact that I can't do this to Sera in at least one playthrough. it would even be justified because she is a criminal. I miss Hawke .

This is actually part of the reason i enjoy characters like Sera or Jack from ME. Because BW games have taken the 'Nasty' options away from me. The only way i get to take out characters who honk me off now is, have a companion with me that will do it, and hope this is a scene where they do it.

I want to kill the guy who tried to kill me. Nah that would 'ruin' the story you stand here and talk to him until Sera does it for you. Thank you Sera this stupid game wont let me be you. So you be you and we can giggle together while you kill dumbasses.

[Alexius]

Also to all of you with the stabbity stab obsessions:

 

 

 

You need Andraste.

 

This made me chuckle. 

 

There's a wide gap between not liking someone and straight up killing her because she did something you didn't approve of.

[Nathair Nimheil]

She instead used the heaviest weapon in her arsenal to shut the Inquisitor down and make them do what she wanted. I know that isn't how you see it, but that is how I see it, and I don't think either of us can say we're more right than the other.

Unless you think BW is intentionally trying to screw with your head I don't see why they would write Sera (suddenly all crafty and subtle) as trying to manipulate you into doing something which they never give you the option of doing. Emotionally torturing the player seems a bit unlikely, especially when a straight up reading of what she actually says and does meshes perfectly with the story that follows.
 

I think that's where we profoundly differ. You view that scene as a perfectly reasonable way to end a relationship, I view it as a horrible way to end a relationship.

No, I said nothing of the kind. What I said was it was a scene in which Sera ended the relationship and not a scene in which Sera was trying to manipulate you. I made no judgement about how much I approved of her method. Personally I thought that rather than cold or harsh it was, in all honesty, quite poignant.