84 réponses à ce sujet

[Lebanese Dude]

they're basically ripping off the catholic churches religion... except the bit about homosexuality. It's okay to ignore bits bioware doesn't like, but it's difficult to imagine that the thedas religion never had a history of hating on homosexuality considering the catholic influences.

 

Conveniently ignoring the rest of Leviticus I see.

Pretty sure Thedas doesn't have an aversion to mixed fabrics or shellfish either.

 

Also your implication that distinct cultures necessarily develop in the same way is wrong.

 

Thedas has magic. It's a different culture, despite having clear-cut references to real-life ones.

 

[kyles3]

I find it interesting that the lack of representation of a certain conflict would be chalked up to "pushing an agenda." I mean, why make that assumption? The game tackles a lot of different conflicts, but there isn't room for every conflict. Maybe you've got an agenda yourself?

[DanAxe]

Hmm the Chantry is still homophobic in a way. Even tho they dont do propaganda against it, its quite clear that Mother Giselle doesnt want you flirting with Dorian. And while she uses the "he's a magister who could be taking advantage of you" perspective you can clearly see that what matters to her is what the public opinion (and hers) thinks of the Inquisitor having a relationship with Dorian, and how that could affect how the masses see the Herald.

 

I've been fooling around with both Cass (she is so adorable behind all that hard shell) and Dorian, but when mother Giselle came to me with "concerns" about Dorian, it just made my mind up, I'll leave Cass romance to another playthrough, now i wanna see how far this Chantry concerns go.

 

And please stop making every dialogue option into an ultrasecret bioware agenda. They try to give you as much freedom as they can to pursue whatever kinda of romantic relationship you want to follow and they try to make it as believable as possible without stepping in anyones toes, but the bit**** of this world always have to find a way to see Bioware trying to form an agenda that goes against what such bit**** believe to be true and righteous. Get off your high horses people. The options are there but you dont have to take them. If you dont fancy them or are scared of them, just stay away and play inside your comfort zone, nothing in the games pushes you to do anything that you dont want to do, and you have plenty of options to make every kind of person semi-satisfied.

[Lebanese Dude]

Hmm the Chantry is still homophobic in a way. Even tho they dont do propaganda against it, its quite clear that Mother Giselle doesnt want you flirting with Dorian. And while she uses the "he's a magister who could be taking advantage of you" perspective you can clearly see that what matters to her is what the public opinion (and hers) thinks of the Inquisitor having a relationship with Dorian, and how that could affect how the masses see the Herald.

 

 

I fail to see where homophobia enters here. If Dorian was a female, the context would be the same. She doesn't want you flirting with Dorian because he's a Tevinter magister. Gender has no influence.

Perhaps you're mirroring your own perspectives and seeing things that aren't really there.

 

Also... Spoilers.

[Nathair Nimheil]

they're basically ripping off the catholic churches religion... except the bit about homosexuality.

I'm thinking your grasp of medieval and Catholic history is a bit loose. The Chantry is not Catholicism in different clothes, it's the opposite. Chantric churches have merely been given the outward appearance of a sort of idealized medieval Christianity, they have "familiar" churches and a sort of familiar "tone" and language and the Andraste story is obviously intended to be a loose parallel to the Christ myth but loose is the key word there. The core of Chantric belief is pretty much diametrically opposite to Christianity and this is especially true in regards to matters of sex and gender. One could simply point out the fact that the Andrastian clergy is exclusively female and drop the mic on this entire discussion.

[Natureguy85]

As long as they don't change any previously established characters like they have in the past, I'm happy.

[Lebanese Dude]

As long as they don't change any previously established characters like they have in the past, I'm happy.

 

They've never changed someone's explicit sexual orientation though.

[DanAxe]

I fail to see where homophobia enters here. If Dorian was a female, the context would be the same. She doesn't want you flirting with Dorian because he's a Tevinter magister. Gender has no influence.

Perhaps you're mirroring your own perspectives and seeing things that aren't really there.

 

Also... Spoilers.

 

 

I might be reading too much into it, true. But it seems to me Giselle's problem goes far beyond the Magister problem.

On my femalequizzie playthrough she doesnt nag me about Bull being Qunari and potentially trying to convert the south of Thedas by manipulating the Inquisitor.

[mickey111]

They've never changed someone's explicit sexual orientation though.

 

The mass effect writers did though. the mass effect writers did a lot of things, not all of them were good either.

[daveliam]

The mass effect writers did though. the mass effect writers did a lot of things, not all of them were good either.

 

If you are referring to Kaidan, this is technically incorrect.  Kaidan never stated that he was straight.  It was implied that he was straight (he mentions a non-sexual relationship with a girl as a teenager and is not available to romance male Shep in ME), but it was never outright stated anywhere.

 

Bisexuals deal with this all the time.  People naturally assume that sexuality is a binary.  You are either straight or gay.  So if someone sees a bisexual person in an o/s relationship, they assume they are straight.  If the see them in a s/s relationship, they assume that they are gay.  In this case, because Kaidan showed attraction to females in ME, he can't be gay so he must be straight.  But that's totally not how it works. 

 

So there is actually nothing that would preclude Kaidan being bisexual in ME.  Was it their intentions?  Probably not.  But there's nothing in the lore of the game that was changed.  Kaidan was instantly attracted to female Shep.  It took almost losing male Shep in the beginning of ME 2 for Kaidan to realize his feelings for him.  He doesn't self-identify as bisexual, but that shouldn't matter in this context because he also doesn't self-identify as straight either.

[SofaJockey]

If BioWare include characters of different genders races and orientations,

they are labelled as having 'an agenda' that requires a big debate.

 

I don't see it that way.

 

I see BioWare as not having 'an agenda' but simply having equity.

 

When people have the freedom to play the game they want to play,

and not play the game they don't want to play, 

 

without a huge controversy every time 

(such controversy triggered not by BioWare but by those with prejudice in their hearts)

 

then we will live in a much nicer world.

[Maverick827]

Having "an agenda" isn't inherently a bad thing. There's probably a negative connotation to the phrase now (e.g. "having an agenda" = "having a radical agenda"), but the meaning of the phrase itself isn't bad.

I think it's pretty clear that BioWare has a pro-gender/race equality agenda. I don't think anyone has an anti-gender/race equality agenda, but it's fairly obvious that BioWare pays more attention to and actively attempts to address these issues than pretty much any other AAA developer.

I think the issue is that people tend to assume the worst. The worst, in this case, would be that this agenda does turn "radical." I don't think we've taken that exit yet, but we're definitely on the highway. The developers/writers themselves have already posted some troubling "nom nom nom straight white male tears" esque things, and I don't think it's absurd for someone to fear those kinds of sentiments finding their way into the game.

[Sardoni]

Some Inquisitors.

[Nathair Nimheil]

I don't think anyone has an anti-gender/race equality agenda

Hi there and welcome to the internet, we hope you enjoy your visit.

[Maverick827]

Hi there and welcome to the internet, we hope you enjoy your visit.

Sorry, I meant "anyone" as "any AAA game developers."

[Natureguy85]

They've never changed someone's explicit sexual orientation though.

 

They did out of universe. Shepard was explicitly stated to be straight, but that can change in ME3. At any rate, they have changed characters' clear sexuality in Kaidan and Anders. You are correct that they didn't come out and say "I'm straight". But even if they had, people would say "Oh well he was just lying because homophobia".

 

If you are referring to Kaidan, this is technically incorrect.  Kaidan never stated that he was straight.  It was implied that he was straight (he mentions a non-sexual relationship with a girl as a teenager and is not available to romance male Shep in ME), but it was never outright stated anywhere.

 

Bisexuals deal with this all the time.  People naturally assume that sexuality is a binary.  You are either straight or gay.  So if someone sees a bisexual person in an o/s relationship, they assume they are straight.  If the see them in a s/s relationship, they assume that they are gay.  In this case, because Kaidan showed attraction to females in ME, he can't be gay so he must be straight.  But that's totally not how it works. 

 

So there is actually nothing that would preclude Kaidan being bisexual in ME.  Was it their intentions?  Probably not.  But there's nothing in the lore of the game that was changed.  Kaidan was instantly attracted to female Shep.  It took almost losing male Shep in the beginning of ME 2 for Kaidan to realize his feelings for him.  He doesn't self-identify as bisexual, but that shouldn't matter in this context because he also doesn't self-identify as straight either.

 

As above, while Kaidan and Anders never explicitly stated their orientation, it was made clear. It's not just that people are assuming these characters are straight because they saw them with or heard them talk about females, it's that they showed no indication whatsoever of attraction males.

 

I could give them credit for trying to justify if because of Shepard's death, as you brought up, but he sure doesn't show it in ME2.

[Adanu]

Nope, BIoware caved to the SJWs infesting gaming media.

[daveliam]

As above, while Kaidan and Anders never explicitly stated their orientation, it was made clear. It's not just that people are assuming these characters are straight because they saw them with or heard them talk about females, it's that they showed no indication whatsoever of attraction males.

 

I could give them credit for trying to justify if because of Shepard's death, as you brought up, but he sure doesn't show it in ME2.

 

Again, that's people's incorrect assumptions.  I have a cousin who is bisexual.  She's in a relationship with man.  Her past two relationships have been with men.  I haven't heard her talk about her same sex attraction in years.  She's still bisexual.  If someone were to meet her today, they might assume that she's straight.  They would be wrong.  Understandable assumption, perhaps, but still wrong. 

 

Regarding Kaidan in ME 2, he gives a passionate speech to another guy about how much he's missed him and how he struggled to cope with losing him because, "losing you was like losing a limb.....".  He totally shows feelings that go beyond simple friendship with male Shep in ME 2.

 

And I also maintain that there is crazy sexual tension between Kaidan and male Shep in both ME and ME 2.  I've been saying this for years.  Way before ME 3.  To me, the signs were always there.  Maybe it's because I'm better at looking for subtle m/m flirting.  But I was not surprised at all when he was revealed as bisexual in ME 3.  In fact, I was way more surprised in ME when I couldn't romance him.

[In Exile]

Again, that's people's incorrect assumptions. I have a cousin who is bisexual. She's in a relationship with man. Her past two relationships have been with men. I haven't heard her talk about her same sex attraction in years. She's still bisexual. If someone were to meet her today, they might assume that she's straight. They would be wrong. Understandable assumption, perhaps, but still wrong.

Regarding Kaidan in ME 2, he gives a passionate speech to another guy about how much he's missed him and how he struggled to cope with losing him because, "losing you was like losing a limb.....". He totally shows feelings that go beyond simple friendship with male Shep in ME 2.

And I also maintain that there is crazy sexual tension between Kaidan and male Shep in both ME and ME 2. I've been saying this for years. Way before ME 3. To me, the signs were always there. Maybe it's because I'm better at looking for subtle m/m flirting. But I was not surprised at all when he was revealed as bisexual in ME 3. In fact, I was way more surprised in ME when I couldn't romance him.

I say this every time Kaiden comes up, but the sexual chemistry between him and Shepard in ME1 was just so hilariously over the top that I couldn't believe for a second they weren't into each other. The camera angles, the "wipe glistening sweat off brow" move, the lighting ... it was so over the top it was like an outtake from a porno.

[daveliam]

I say this every time Kaiden comes up, but the sexual chemistry between him and Shepard in ME1 was just so hilariously over the top that I couldn't believe for a second they weren't into each other. The camera angles, the "wipe glistening sweat off brow" move, the lighting ... it was so over the top it was like an outtake from a porno.

 

Exactly.  I'm pretty sure I've seen pornos where a guy is working on a car (or some other manly pursuit) and another guy walks up and they have that exact same interaction with the silent staring and brow wiping.  Of course I have no idea what happens after that because I was only watching for the plot......

[Dapper Pomegranate]

...considering the catholic influences.

Precisely. The Chantry is influenced by catholicism, not a direct insert of it. 

 

It's not just that people are assuming these characters are straight because they saw them with or heard them talk about females, it's that they showed no indication whatsoever of attraction males.

Well, I for one showed no indication whatsoever of attraction to males or females until uni, so I guess at that point the universe retconned me from being asexual to gay? 

 

Nope, BIoware caved to the SJWs infesting gaming media.

lol

[Memtndude]

I don't understand why this is even a topic. 

 

This seems like it's one of those things that's in the game just like different cars are in GTA. Each person likes different things and the game gives you options. Although I may not utilize this option, it doesn't mean it needs extra scrutiny. So ridiculous.....

[Peer of the Empire]

Considering the number of gays in this vaguely medieval style of fantasy setting, as well as all of the manly-women and the the codex entries I would be surprised if there weren't a few bigoted comments from some characters.

 

We might expect so considering all of the unusual behavior but the prevalence suggests that the population itself is wired that way

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

Well you using the term "sexual preference" already hints at a bias you have against LGBT issues.

 

You can't be serious.

 

This is where people who are otherwise indifferent and uninvolved have to speak up. So because he uses a vernacular that has the audacity to suggest that sexual "orientation" is a choice he suddenly has a bias against it? He drew no such conclusions in his post.

 

You can't term semantic misunderstandings or grammatical affronts as "bias" and expect to be taken seriously. The PC agenda makes minorities look petty, and can only yield the same for the causes that they attach themselves to. Understanding and acceptance is a two way street, that definitely includes understanding that other people may not speak the same as you.

[Nathair Nimheil]

to suggest that sexual "orientation" is a choice he suddenly has a bias against it?

Well, yeah. To a certain extent that is valid as, as LD termed it, "a hint". Perhaps you don't follow the dialogue surrounding LGBT rights but the suggestion that sexual orientation is a voluntary choice is a mainstay of the homophobe position and flies directly in the face of the scientific evidence on the subject. Perhaps it was just offered in ignorance but, in light of other comments regarding "manly-women" etc. I certainly interpeted it as illustrating bias.