239 réponses à ce sujet

[HK-90210]

Sigh.....it all really depends on how you define your terms, people. Why everyone gets so worked up over this is beyond me. But don't feel bad for asking, OP. It's a confusing issue, as we tend to get our terms mixed and jumbled.

 

If you define men and women as what their genitalia and gender of birth make them, then Krem is a woman who lives her life as a man. To say otherwise is to fly in the face of the fact that Krem possesses female genitalia and was physically born a woman. People who use this definition get very confused and offended when you call a person like Krem a man, as it denies physical fact. If Krem has a vagina, she's a woman.

 

If you define men and women by all the behaviors and secondary characteristics and gender roles we assign them, with genitalia and biology being secondary, then Krem is a guy with a vagina. To say otherwise is to ignore the way that Krem goes about his life, the way he acts, his role in social/cultural groups. Pretty much everything Krem does in everyday life. People who use this definition get very upset when you call a person like Krem a woman because in every way except as it relates to his genitals, Krem is a man. And it takes a lot of effort to transition to that, and calling Krem a woman is spitting on that effort and defining him in a way that Krem himself would not wish to be defined.

 

So, OP, that's the best answer I can give as to the two prominent opinions of what(gender-wise) Krem is. Feel free to figure out where you stand, be it on one side or the other. Or anywhere in between. Or outside of them and call everyone something else entirely..

 

<DISCLAIMER>Neither of the above is necessarily my personal opinion. I am simply stating the two most prominent sides of the issue for the OP, and why they both get confused and angry in threads such as this. I have done everything I can do not to offend either side. I am making no judgments either way, nor have I stated what I personally believe.<END DISCLAIMER>

 

It was interesting to see the Qun's point of view on the subject. It really explains Sten's whole "You fight. So it follows that you CANNOT be a woman." Very new side of the Qun. Hence why it easy, from a cultural standpoint, for Iron Bull to define Krem's gender. To him, it's simple fact. To the rest of Thedas, it's going to be a little unusual.

[daveliam]

Sigh.....it all really depends on how you define your terms, people. Why everyone gets so worked up over this is beyond me. But don't feel bad for asking, OP. It's a confusing issue, as we tend to get our terms mixed and jumbled.

 

 

I agree with what you've posted.  I just stand firmly in the fact that it's not my place to decide how to define someone else's gender.  If he says that he is a man, then why on Earth would I call him a woman if not to offend him?  It's not like doing so will make him say, "Oh, wait, maybe I really am a woman...."  It just seems pointlessly rude to disagree with someone about their own gender identity. 

 

Also, I don't think that OP was being offensive at all.  There's a difference between not being sure how to navigate that language and outright saying, "She's a woman."  The latter is dismissive and rude, I think.  The former is natural if someone isn't familiar with it.  I also think that your post was well-reasoned and neutral.  No offense intended or received as far as I can see.

 

And, yes, I know that Krem is fictitious and can't be offended, but there are many trans members on the boards who do get offended when people continue to dismiss their gender identity. 

[AzukiJin]

Gender: Subjective. Meaning, Man, Woman, Girl, Boy and other gender roles. What I mean by subjective? The meaning behind the word can change between person to person, country to country. of what a "Man/Woman truely is". - What doesn't stands on your birthcertificate at birth ( Possible to change it)

 

 

Sex: Objective. Male, Female. It's simply what type of chromozone you have. Not your ability to give create a baby (Cause some people have a dysfunction at birth or later in life). It's neither your genetalia as these can be removed in accidents (Just cause your penis gets blow to bits by a shotgun doesn't mean you suddenly transfrom from Male to Female, that's just dumb to think) or be non-existant at birth(Other types of Birth defects). -  What stands on your birthcertificate at birth

 

If you go by this definition it's a tad easier to not misunderstand things. Like a Female saying "I am a man." Then bam. Okay, He's a man. 
Confusion might come if a Female looking Woman would say "I am Male" Then it could be two things depening on THEIR definition. Either it means "She's a Male who is now a Woman" or "It's a Female is a man". 

I'm sorry if I offended people by my blunt defintion but it's not my defintion, it's the Scientific defintion. 

 

[naddaya]

What does "living life as a man/woman" even mean though? There are too many variables to determine someone's role in society solely based on their gender. In Thedas women fighting are common nearly everywhere. I understand Krem's choice and why he was uncomfortable in Tevinter, but I'm honestly confused by that expression.

[Hurbster]

Don't care about whatever the current gender definition is today  - Krem is awesome.

[LightningPoodle]

He is a man. Plain and simple. If the dialogue never came up, there would be no difference. It wouldn't change anything.

[what]

Haven't read all of this but I don't get why people get so caught up with outdated gender roles and obsessed with people's genitals lol. He is a man with a vagina (im guessing Thedas doesn't offer surgery) and therefore probably assigned female at birth, doesn't change anything about his actual gender.

[Shark17676]

I knew straight away what the deal was when I first met Krem, and immediately felt so proud of Bioware that they gave the transgender community representation in this game as well.

[HK-90210]

Gender: Subjective. Meaning, Man, Woman, Girl, Boy and other gender roles. What I mean by subjective? The meaning behind the word can change between person to person, country to country. of what a "Man/Woman truely is". - What doesn't stands on your birthcertificate at birth ( Possible to change it)

 

 

Sex: Objective. Male, Female. It's simply what type of chromozone you have. Not your ability to give create a baby (Cause some people have a dysfunction at birth or later in life). It's neither your genetalia as these can be removed in accidents (Just cause your penis gets blow to bits by a shotgun doesn't mean you suddenly transfrom from Male to Female, that's just dumb to think) or be non-existant at birth(Other types of Birth defects). -  What stands on your birthcertificate at birth

 

If you go by this definition it's a tad easier to not misunderstand things. Like a Female saying "I am a man." Then bam. Okay, He's a man. 
Confusion might come if a Female looking Woman would say "I am Male" Then it could be two things depening on THEIR definition. Either it means "She's a Male who is now a Woman" or "It's a Female is a man". 

I'm sorry if I offended people by my blunt defintion but it's not my defintion, it's the Scientific defintion. 

 

 

Hmmm...I honestly hadn't thought of the difference(in today's world) on the scientific definitions of sex and gender and where they differ. *Goes off to thinking corner.*

 

It's all pointless as far as Thedas goes, though. Just imagine trying to explain chromosomes to even the most intelligent Thedosian. You're gonna end up confusing them, and they're probably going to call you crazy.

 

Morrigan would be intrigued, I bet.

[Swoopdogg]

Bull says Krem is a real man, and that's all that matters

[Mr.House]

Krem was a great character, what made Krem great was his gender was not a big issue, it's mentioned but it's not the focus or his defining trait, nor is it played as some joke. I'm very pleased with how Bioware handled Krem.

[Medhia_Nox]

@LightningPoodle:  Are you sure there would be NO difference between Krem and a non-transgendered man?

 

I like that Krem is very to-the-point that he is transgendered.  The ONLY thing I find wrong about someone living as a gender they were not born - is deception, and this has nothing to do with being transgendered - but with being a liar.

 

It is okay to be different - there is nothing evil, wrong, etc. about telling the truth:  "I was born biologically a woman, but identify as a man."  You were not born biologically male, but you were born psychologically male.  And there IS a difference - and that is okay.  Biology makes room for great diversity. 

 

It doesn't matter if you feel tired explaining yourself - it is your life, and your responsibility, to tell the truth about it.  I am glad Krem doesn't struggle with the deception of it... you want to know, you deserve an explanation (and an explanation is not an apology, excuse or plea for understanding).  

 

I really like how adamant Bull is about defending Krem - while still being truthful.

[Finnn62]

Krem is a female who identifies as a man. The only difference, in my mind, between him and a female who identifies as a woman and acts otherwise the same as Krem is the pronouns we refer to him with. I don't agree with the existence of gender roles, generally (as in I wish we could just flat out ignore them). I'm fine with referring to Krem as a "he" and "man", if that's what he's comfortable with, though.

 

Going to be honest (as a heterosexual male), provided he has female genitalia under that armor, I'd find a female like Krem particularly attractive due to style of dress and manner of speech. I think I'd be at least a little weirded out dating a female who referred to themselves with masculine pronouns and as a man, as trivial as that may (or may not) seem, though (due the association with male genitalia in my mind). Had Krem had an operation altering genitalia (which probably doesn't exist in Thedas), my thoughts on him would be vastly different in this regard. Not that any of that junk matters except for sexual/romantic relationships, which I don't think comes up with relation to Krem, in this game (although I'm not done the game, yet).

 

So Krem is just a person who acts a certain way: a rather awesome person, also. Gender role issues aside, Krem's an interesting side character and Jennifer Hale does a great job on the voice. This is all just my opinion, though. I suppose it's more important how the person themselves feels. It's cool that Bioware added in some contempory issues in the game, as it gets people thinking about them. Hopefully it will lead to more acceptance for all people, or at least it'd be nice if it helped lead to that.

[Iakus]

I apoligize for making the thread in advance and I don't care what krem is I like the character. Also the VA did a good job

 

VA was Jennifer Hale (FemShep)

[Boudicae]

I have no issues with Krem being in the game, but I didn't like the way he was introduced as transgender.  It literally sort of felt like Iron Bull leading me and then going "Ta-da!  It's a transgender person!"  I would have preferred those dialog options to be something I could ask Krem independently of that conversation.  It was also weird interrogating him about his gender identity while 5 or 6 people (most of whom I don't know) are watching us and waiting for the drinks to be broken out. 

 

Also, it didn't really make sense to me that the Qun would be accepting of transgender people.  Everything I've heard about it up to this point leads me to think rather the opposite. 

 

Actually, you don't have to ask when you meet the Chargers. I didn't because it seemed rude, but when I went to talk to Krem afterwards, he had new dialogue options to tell you about who he is and what it was like growing up in Tevinter, which I though was handled well - it was sad hearing Krem talk about his father. I thought that that was a much more polite and natural way of expressing interest in knowing more about him.

[PrinceLionheart]

 

Also, it didn't really make sense to me that the Qun would be accepting of transgender people.  Everything I've heard about it up to this point leads me to think rather the opposite. 

 

I had mixed feelings on it too, but then I remembered party banter back in Origins where Sten will refer to Leliana and a Female Warden as a man. So there ironically is some basis for that from a past game.

[Solas]

She's a woman. I didn't know at first, so I tought she was a little kid.

Are you trying to be an ass or what?

[daveliam]

 

Going to be honest (as a heterosexual male), provided he has female genitalia under that armor, I'd find a female like Krem particularly attractive due to style of dress and manner of speech. I think I'd be at least a little weirded out dating a female who referred to themselves with masculine pronouns and as a man, as trivial as that may (or may not) seem, though (due the association with male genitalia in my mind). Had Krem had an operation altering genitalia (which probably doesn't exist in Thedas), my thoughts on him would be vastly different in this regard. Not that any of that junk matters except for sexual/romantic relationships, which I don't think comes up with relation to Krem, in this game (although I'm not done the game, yet).

.

 

Well, to be fair, there's probably alot of other things that would complicate this.  Being with Krem would mean that you were in a gay relationship.  He fundamentally does not identify as a female.  He acts and views himself as a male.  Krem, if he were to be with you, would be identifying as a gay male specifically.  There are a lot of nuances regarding gender in relationships where one partner is trans.

 

When it all works out, though, it's truly brilliant.  My husband and I have a 'couple-friend' where one partner is a bisexual transman (like Krem) and the other is a bisexual woman.  Gender and sexuality are just such a non-issue for their own worldviews that it's amazing to me to watch.  It then reminds me how hung up on gender identity I can be, even as a gay guy. 

 

I love that characters like Krem can introduce conversations like this to the community.

[Eterna]

No, Krem's a male. He was female, but chooses to live his life as a male. He identifies as a male so he's male. Basically he's the transgendered character that the devs hinted about on Twitter a little while back.

 

Krem isn't male, he's female. He can't be male without an xy chromosome, but he can identify as a man. 

[daveliam]

Krem isn't male, he's female. He can't be male without an xy chromosome, but he can identify as a man. 

 

Krem can identify however he wants to and, frankly, it's not really any of your business.  If Krem says he's a man.  He's a man.  If he says he's male, he's male.  Why do people feel the need to police other people's wording around gender identity?  Let people use whatever language they want.  What does it cost you to let that go?

[Eterna]

  If he says he's male, he's male.

 

No he is not. To be male you need an XY chromosome pairing. He can be what culture and society deems to be a man, but he can never be a male on a biological level. 

[daveliam]

No he is not. To be male you need an XY chromosome pairing. He can be what culture and society deems to be a man, but he can never be a male on a biological level. 

 

But why do you care?  Who cares?  Seriously?  If someone wants to call himself a walking pretzel, what does it matter to me?  Go for it.  If he wants me to call him a pretzel and he gets upset if I don't.....guess what?  I'll call him a pretzel because it costs me nothing and it does something nice for someone else.  I just don't see how nitpicking over male v. man semantics is useful. 

[PrinceLionheart]

[Eterna]

But why do you care?  Who cares?  Seriously?  If someone wants to call himself a walking pretzel, what does it matter to me?  Go for it.  If he wants me to call him a pretzel and he gets upset if I don't.....guess what?  I'll call him a pretzel because it costs me nothing and it does something nice for someone else.  I just don't see how nitpicking over male v. man semantics is useful. 

 

I prefer truth over protecting someones delicate sensibilities.