So basically you meet this guy that I showed beforehand, but he introduces himself to you with a feminine pronoun instead, and you are good to go? Keep in mind nothing else changed.
Well, I don't like being lied to, so I can't imagine it'd go terribly well once the truth came out.
I take Xil's word for it that it matters to her. The same way that I take your word for it that physical sex matters to you.
I know how I identify, but I can only take other people at face value about how they identify and what makes them tick. If you want me to believe that a woman with a penis is a deal breaker for you, then I should also believe that a man with a vagina is a deal breaker for Xil.
That's the thing, in ''my world'' things like woman with a penis and a man with a vagina just do not exist, those are oxymorons.
Well, I don't like being lied to, so I can't imagine it'd go terribly well once the truth came out.
What if the person doesn't care about how they are being addressed and just casually switches pronouns to be with you, and you never find out?
As much sense as that may make in theory, fundamentally there is minimal difference between those except what they wish to be referred to as. You can't tell their gender identity/which pronouns to use, without asking the person or having them tell you what they'd prefer. I'd argue even if they were dressed in stereotypical "feminine" clothing, they could still technically see themselves as a man or want to be called "he". If someone tells me they'd like to be called by a different pronoun, that's alright with me. There is so much variation in the world that categorizing people can become very confusing to me and mostly I'd just like to say everyone should be respected and categories are sometimes just insufficient.
No there actually is lot of difference between transmale, crossdresser and tomboy/masculine lookin/acting woman.
Crossdressing woman is woman who is putting on performance for something. Fun or some kind of happening maybe. She's performing as guy, for example cosplayers do this a lot. Man who is crossdressing and putting on performance of woman is often called Drag queen.
Masculine acting or looking/tomboyish woman is woman who doesn't want to follow her society's gender roles. She identifies as woman and is still pretty comfortable with her own body. They have woman's body (aka no binding boobs etc.) and they just act non-feminine way. I'm pretty much like this. I simply like stuff that is determined as more boyish and dislike feminine clothing. If society wouldn't have such strict gender roles I'd be just woman.
Transman is man unlike crossdressing woman who is performing different gender than hers and masculine acting woman who just denies gender roles. Transman believe they are man trapped in woman's body. Often they have body body dysphoria. Transmen often use hormones, top-surgeries and even genital surgeries so that they body would represent what they are inside. They aren't performing or denying gender roles, they know that they are men and what society to know it too.
That's the thing, in ''my world'' things like woman with a penis and a man with a vagina just do not exist, those are oxymorons.
You live in the real world and those things exist in the real world. You can't decide how other people identify. There are people who identify as women who have penises. There are people who identify as men who have vaginas.
You live in the real world and those things exist in the real world. You can't decide how other people identify. There are people who identify as women who have penises. There are people who identify as men who have vaginas.
And to me that's like hearing something like:
''Hey I just drew a round square.''
It just effs up my perception, I lose the meaning of words and cannot express myself clearly anymore, it's troubling.
And to me that's like hearing something like:
''Hey I just drew a round square.''
It just effs up my perception, I lose the meaning of words and cannot express myself clearly anymore, it's troubling.
I understand that. But it doesn't make their viewpoint less valid.
No there actually is lot of difference between transmale, crossdresser and tomboy/masculine lookin/acting woman.
Crossdressing woman is woman who is putting on performance for something. Fun or some kind of happening maybe. She's performing as guy, for example cosplayers do this a lot. Man who is crossdressing and putting on performance of woman is often called Drag queen.
Masculine acting or looking/tomboyish woman is woman who doesn't want to follow her society's gender roles. She identifies as woman and is still pretty comfortable with her own body. They have woman's body (aka no binding boobs etc.) and they just act non-feminine way. I'm pretty much like this. I simply like stuff that is determined as more boyish and dislike feminine clothing. If society wouldn't have such strict gender roles I'd be just woman.
Transman is man unlike crossdressing woman who is performing different gender than hers and masculine acting woman who just denies gender roles. Transman believe they are man trapped in woman's body. Often they have body body dysphoria. Transmen often use hormones, top-surgeries and even genital surgeries so that they body would represent what they are inside. They aren't performing or denying gender roles, they know that they are men and what society to know it too.
Okay, I get that a trans-man may take hormones and that the motivation differs. I don't doubt that a trans-man feels deep down they should be male with all the parts that go with that. The only point I'm making is that without talking with someone about their motivations all three of these would mostly look alike (aside from the trans-man, if he's on hormones perhaps and obviously if he's gotten surgery). They are all biological females dressed in similar clothing styles. I would have trouble gaging how comfortable someone is with their physical sex on first meeting. Heck, some tomboys and cosplayers might even choose to bind their breasts for all I know or just have smaller sized breasts that are mistaken for bound breasts.
I would have a hard time telling them apart just by appearances or even actions alone, is all I'm saying. I would fully believe that the main difference would be the body dysphoria not the way the person acts/dresses. That means that I might need them to explain their view of themselves to me so that I could refer to them properly, however. I meant no offense, honest.
I understand that. But it doesn't make their viewpoint less valid.
No it doesn't. We just need to seriously overhaul our dictionary and add new words and agree on the meanings, but of course that is not happening anytime soon.
Would make for a funny dictionary though:
man (m
n) - some people feel that they need to be called as such..
Well.. funny for me at least. 
I've been meaning to ask (but I don't know anyone who is transgender in real life, or if I do, I don't know they're transgender), but is there any science behind being trans? By that, I don't mean like illness or anything, but is there a biological or evolutionary reason that someone would identify as something other than their genetic sex? My first guess was that a man or woman's (biologically) endocrine systems put out more of the opposite hormone (estrogen for men, testosterone for women), or that a trans-identifying person receives more of the opposite hormone while in the womb before birth.
I would do a google search, but I can't think of a way to type it without feeling like I put in something transphobic and end up feeling bad.
Frankly, it doesn't matter if it 'makes sense' to you. It's a personal thing that it's in people's heads. I just know to respect people's wishes and not constantly nitpick at what people say about it.
Or a more realistic analogy, a man believes he is an honest man, he identifies as a one but he lies at every juncture of his life, at every conservation, every opportunity. By your standards, he would still be an honest man for he is what he identifies with.
But is that really the case? Is this man, an honest man, merely because he believes he is honest but lies with every word? Can a man who believes he is honest but whose actions prove otherwise still be considered an honest man just because he believes so?
Gender is about identity, and sex is physical, which is why a transman pre- or non-op can be gay while having a female body if he's attracted to men.
What gets me is the people out there that think their expectations should somehow be catered to and are more important than the self-identity of the person they're speaking to. I'm trans. I'm female bodied and perceived. The reasons why are no one else's business. I identify as masculine/male internally, despite my body being "wrong" on the outside. This has been a fact since I can remember, literally. I recall being a small child and not understanding why I was different. I look in the mirror and I do not "recognise" myself because my body is so very wrong and does not match my mind. Cis people who can't understand it don't concern me. You don't need to understand it.
And to Xil, a non-op transperson not detailing the minutia of their genitals to you is not them "lying." I feel far more that I am "lying" to people by using female pronouns and appearing female despite not identifying that way because my brain says 100% that I am not female, and any straight dude in a relationship with me will end up VERY shocked- and possibly even violent and dangerous- when/if he found out.
Our lives are not here for your scrutiny and understanding. All we ask is a basic respect in who we are.
I've been meaning to ask (but I don't know anyone who is transgender in real life, or if I do, I don't know they're transgender), but is there any science behind being trans? By that, I don't mean like illness or anything, but is there a biological or evolutionary reason that someone would identify as something other than their genetic sex? My first guess was that a man or woman's (biologically) endocrine systems put out more of the opposite hormone (estrogen for men, testosterone for women), or that a trans-identifying person receives more of the opposite hormone while in the womb before birth.
I would do a google search, but I can't think of a way to type it without feeling like I put in something transphobic and end up feeling bad.
Basically being trans is scientifically valid as there are neurological differences in transgender people from the norm of their assigned gender, towards the gender they identify. Truth be told almost all of human development is driven by hormones and DNA is merely the blueprint, the current leading theory is that during the hormone bath in fetal development transpeople receive different baths for their mind and their body, leading to someone who is LITERALLY mentally one gender and physically the other. Another similar thing occurs to XX Males and XY Females who receive the same bath for their mind and body but it is different from their chromosomes.
Between the realities of inter-sex people, XX Males and XY females, other chromosomal disorders and transpeople there is no magic bullet for you to say women have this and men have this, in attempt to exclude transpeople.
The thing is, what does being "mentally one gender" even mean? It's not like all people of the same gender have a hive mind.
The thing is, what does being "mentally one gender" even mean? It's not like all people of the same gender have a hive mind.
It's really not hard to understand. You identify as male, female, neither, fluid, etc. It's internal. Most people have a perception of themselves that matches their physical sex. There are distinct differences between men and women mentally that can be measured scientifically with brain scans. Male identifying people in femnine bodies have brain scans that match closer to male identifying people in masculine bodies, and vice versa. I'm sure you know, from living in society that enforces gender roles, what "masculine" like thoughts and "feminine" like thoughts would be without needing it spelled out in minute detail. Pretending to be obtuse about it doesn't change anything.
Yes, gender can be, and likely is, a social construct, but it still exists, but gender isn't just about outwardly matching that construct. A tomboy is not a transman- a tomboy will probably not identify internally as masculine, even if she bucks the gender norms and prefers tools and playing in the mud. She will still see herself as a woman. A transman does not.
There are outliers in every group, so of course not all people of one gender identify exactly 100% the same, and no one ever said they did, but there are trends within those genders that groups of people will identify with more than others. I find this line of questioning ("but why do you even care about gender/what does gender mean?!") more diminishing of our experiences than enlightening. Most people feel they have a certain gender. Those genders tend to have more in common with themselves than those outside of their gender. Gender is not a physical attribute, but a psychological one. Gender exists as a construct, and has for thousands of years. Would society be better if people threw gender out and stopped giving a damn how people saw themselves? Probably. But that isn't what we exist in right now.
You live in the real world and those things exist in the real world. You can't decide how other people identify. There are people who identify as women who have penises. There are people who identify as men who have vaginas.
Identifying myself as a hamster, does not make me a hamster. Scientifically speaking.
It's really not hard to understand. You identify as male, female, neither, fluid, etc. It's internal.
Actually is hard to understand. Before I could tell whether I am a male or a female I need to look at my body, need to take a look at whats in between my legs, only then I would have an answer for you, it's very much external for me. If tomorrow I woke up with a different set o genitals I would change my pronoun, because that's what the dictionary tells me about what is what.
There are distinct differences between men and women mentally that can be measured scientifically with brain scans.
Not from my experience. I am very different from other people of my gender, and all people are very different. I do not think gender plays any internal role, it however plays part in nurturing, which directly influences ones behavior.
I'm sure you know, from living in society that enforces gender roles
I wonder if you do not feel like you enforce said gender roles by transitioning? Wouldn't it be better if there was no gender and people were just who they are? Since:
Yes, gender can be, and likely is, a social construct.
Also the perception of gender changes always, since it's a social construct, so it means that for thousands of years people identified as many many different things.
Identifying myself as a hamster, does not make me a hamster. Scientifically speaking.
If identifying as a hamster helps you face the day, more power to you.
Gender is about identity, and sex is physical, which is why a transman pre- or non-op can be gay while having a female body if he's attracted to men.
What gets me is the people out there that think their expectations should somehow be catered to and are more important than the self-identity of the person they're speaking to. I'm trans. I'm female bodied and perceived. The reasons why are no one else's business. I identify as masculine/male internally, despite my body being "wrong" on the outside. This has been a fact since I can remember, literally. I recall being a small child and not understanding why I was different. I look in the mirror and I do not "recognise" myself because my body is so very wrong and does not match my mind. Cis people who can't understand it don't concern me. You don't need to understand it.
And to Xil, a non-op transperson not detailing the minutia of their genitals to you is not them "lying." I feel far more that I am "lying" to people by using female pronouns and appearing female despite not identifying that way because my brain says 100% that I am not female, and any straight dude in a relationship with me will end up VERY shocked- and possibly even violent and dangerous- when/if he found out.
Our lives are not here for your scrutiny and understanding. All we ask is a basic respect in who we are.
Believe me, I know. Intimately.
I've always found gender to be an old, useless concept, and should be discarded someday in the future. I can't clearly identify myself as woman or man, nor do I accept any traditional gender roles. Without the latter does gender still carry that much weight anyway? Shouldn't it just be like hair color or height?
Perhaps in an ideal world. But the reality is that gender norms are still heavily enforced in society. It influences everyone, whether they choose to admit it or not. Obviously it's to different degrees for each person, but you can feel the impact regardless. One of the things that I think is clear give away is that, right from birth, people tend to gender children. Think about it. When someone sees a little girl, they often say, "Don't you look beautiful?" Not "Don't you look handsome?" It influences people and some people are very invested in keeping those gender norms in place.
Would the world be better without gender roles? Not sure. But I suspect that we won't ever see that come to pass with how our societies view gender. And that's ultimately why people are non-gender conforming will also struggle somewhat to be understood. I remember having a conversation with people in my doctoral program about the difference between transwomen, transvestites, and drag queens. These were highly educated, liberal people and they could just not wrap their minds around it because it felt so foreign to them.
I choose to take a "Whatever makes you happy is fine with me (provided that it doesn't damage or negatively affect others)" attitude. If people feel that they identify as someone of a different gender than one would expect given their biological sex, what does it hurt me? I don't understand it first hand, but it's not my role to understand it. I'm a gay guy, but I've never once in my life identified as female. I've never felt that I'm in the wrong body. So I can only take their word for it and respect their wishes. At least that's my view on it.
Actually is hard to understand. Before I could tell whether I am a male or a female I need to look at my body, need to take a look at whats in between my legs, only then I would have an answer for you, it's very much external for me. If tomorrow I woke up with a different set o genitals I would change my pronoun, because that's what the dictionary tells me about what is what.
Not from my experience. I am very different from other people of my gender, and all people are very different. I do not think gender plays any internal role, it however plays part in nurturing, which directly influences ones behavior.
I wonder if you do not feel like you enforce said gender roles by transitioning? Wouldn't it be better if there was no gender and people were just who they are? Since:
Also the perception of gender changes always, since it's a social construct, so it means that for thousands of years people identified as many many different things.
Gender is not sex. How many times must this be explained? Sex is physical. Gender is mental.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
I don't need to see what my organs look like to know how I feel inside my head. I had no real concept of sex when I first knew that I did not fit the gender given to me. I have no attachment to my physical female characteristics, and in fact, despise them, because they aren't part of how I identify myself. I knew there was something "wrong" with me without knowing that men had penises and women had vaginas (usually). I thought I was unique for a very long time, and that I was psychologically ill or something for hating my female body. It feels foreign, like I'm inside someone else's skin.
Maybe you choose to take an extreme, literal interpretation- considering you'd change everything about who you are and how you'd identify yourself if you magically woke up with a body that no longer fit your internal mapping. Good for you. Were I to wake up tomorrow and magically have all the male pieces I've wanted since I could even conceive of it, nothing about my psyche would change except relief to finally match my body. The vast majority of people do not look at their crotch and go "yup, I'm a boy/girl" and have zero internal idea of who they are. The vast majority of people do, in fact, have a strong sense of identity with their gender, regardless of their physical body.
I am fairly certain that a man who's suffered an accident and lost his penis does not stop seeing himself as a man. Because the penis has little to do with it. Same with a woman who loses her breasts or uterus to cancer. She does not stop seeing herself as a woman because the relevant part are now gone. Maybe some people will decide to identify as genderless, but they will not be the norm in that regard. Sex and gender are not entirely divorced from each other, but they are not interchangeable.
"He's just Krem"
Guys I'm confused.
Is Krem a woman who acts like a man...
Or is Krem a man and woman - with both parts?
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