239 réponses à ce sujet

[naddaya]

(stuff)

 

Alright, language barriers might not have helped here. Let's say I'm a tall, flat chested, muscular person who never wears makeup and dresses like a guy according to general gender conventions. I look either like a girl or a very tall kid. I like tech and sports, and I'm relatively blunt and aggressive. I feel comfortable with my body, but I don't really feel any internal voice telling me "you're a woman". My sex is female. Would the fact that I'm comfortable with my body make my gender female too, despite not conforming to the current gender norms?

[d4eaming]

Alright, language barriers might not have helped here. Let's say I'm a tall, flat chested, muscular person who never wears makeup and dresses like a guy according to general gender conventions. I look either like a girl or a very tall kid. I like tech and sports, and I'm relatively blunt and aggressive. I feel comfortable with my body, but I don't really feel any internal voice telling me "you're a woman". My sex is female. Would the fact that I'm comfortable with my body make my gender female too, despite not conforming to the current gender norms?

I wouldn't assume. Maybe you're genderless, or maybe you're gender-fluid. I'm not going to give you a label you don't want. If you don't identify strongly as either male or female, then I'd go with genderless, or agender, whatever word is preferred there. I sometimes call myself gender-fluid because there are times I am okay with appearing female, and it ebbs and flows, but I never feel strongly that I am female.

 

It's complex, there's no single, easy answer that will fit every single person, ever. If you're not strongly attached to a label, then you're not and that's perfectly fine. Some people are, and that's what I feel should be respected, and doesn't need a debate or someone telling them that they must feel one way, or that their body is one thing so their mind should also be that same thing.

[The Antagonist]

not a man but a trans man

[EmperorSahlertz]

If identifying as a hamster helps you face the day, more power to you.

Indeed. Who cares what others identify as? However, what someone feels, and what actually is, is not always the same thing.

 

Just because someone prefers to be refered to as 'he' instead of 'her' does not make her a man (scientifically). Luckily we are all human beings, capable of acceptance, sympathy, empathy, ignorance, apathy and all these other wonderful things, so we can live and let live. But it doesn't really change the scientific facts.

 

No matter how much I wish I was a hamster, I will never be, nor become, an actual hamster.

[The Antagonist]

not a man but a trans man

[celestialfury]

Alright, language barriers might not have helped here. Let's say I'm a tall, flat chested, muscular person who never wears makeup and dresses like a guy according to general gender conventions. I look either like a girl or a very tall kid. I like tech and sports, and I'm relatively blunt and aggressive. I feel comfortable with my body, but I don't really feel any internal voice telling me "you're a woman". My sex is female. Would the fact that I'm comfortable with my body make my gender female too, despite not conforming to the current gender norms?

 

Being a woman isn't about conforming to gender norms or deciding to identify as one. All you need to be a woman is to be of the female sex. Your body type doesn't make you less of a woman, the way you dress and your interests also don't make you less of a woman. That's actually called a personality. I can't believe we've come to the point of ''being a woman means being feminine according to sex roles and stereotypes and if you don't you're not one''. How backwards. 

[naddaya]

I wouldn't assume. Maybe you're genderless, or maybe you're gender-fluid. I'm not going to give you a label you don't want. If you don't identify strongly as either male or female, then I'd go with genderless, or agender, whatever word is preferred there. I sometimes call myself gender-fluid because there are times I am okay with appearing female, and it ebbs and flows, but I never feel strongly that I am female.

 

It's complex, there's no single, easy answer that will fit every single person, ever. If you're not strongly attached to a label, then you're not and that's perfectly fine. Some people are, and that's what I feel should be respected, and doesn't need a debate or someone telling them that they must feel one way, or that their body is one thing so their mind should also be that same thing.

 

I think most posters here weren't trying to offend trans people or tell them how they should feel. A lot of people are honestly clueless about gender types, and conventions change. I used gender and sex as synonims before this thread popped up. I don't even think there are separate words for them in my language.

 

edit: @celestialfury - That was my point in my previous posts. Most people go with sex=gender=physical thing, and everything else is personality. We're debating semantics, not behaviors

[celestialfury]

Yeah, btw, my first language is French , and ''gender'' (genre) isn't a word we commonly use. When we say genre we really use it in the sociological context of ''roles and expectations society attributes to each sex'', while in English people use gender and sex= male/female interchangeably so discussions on that subject tend to be confusing. 

[realguile]

No, Krem's a male. He was female, but chooses to live his life as a male. He identifies as a male so he's male. Basically he's the transgendered character that the devs hinted about on Twitter a little while back.

Wait...WHAT? karem is a girl?!

 

Wow.

[Former_Fiend]

Indeed. Who cares what others identify as? However, what someone feels, and what actually is, is not always the same thing.

 

Just because someone prefers to be refered to as 'he' instead of 'her' does not make her a man (scientifically). Luckily we are all human beings, capable of acceptance, sympathy, empathy, ignorance, apathy and all these other wonderful things, so we can live and let live. But it doesn't really change the scientific facts.

 

No matter how much I wish I was a hamster, I will never be, nor become, an actual hamster.

 

Well, not with that attitude you won't.

[Panda]

Wait...WHAT? karem is a girl?!

 

Wow.

 

Krem is transman not a girl.

[realguile]

Krem is transman not a girl.

ok. I have issue with it it's just kinda shocking is all.

[KainD]

Gender is not sex. How many times must this be explained? Sex is physical. Gender is mental.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

 

I don't need to see what my organs look like to know how I feel inside my head. I had no real concept of sex when I first knew that I did not fit the gender given to me. I have no attachment to my physical female characteristics, and in fact, despise them, because they aren't part of how I identify myself. I knew there was something "wrong" with me without knowing that men had penises and women had vaginas (usually). I thought I was unique for a very long time, and that I was psychologically ill or something for hating my female body. It feels foreign, like I'm inside someone else's skin.

 

Maybe you choose to take an extreme, literal interpretation- considering you'd change everything about who you are and how you'd identify yourself if you magically woke up with a body that no longer fit your internal mapping. Good for you. Were I to wake up tomorrow and magically have all the male pieces I've wanted since I could even conceive of it, nothing about my psyche would change except relief to finally match my body. The vast majority of people do not look at their crotch and go "yup, I'm a boy/girl" and have zero internal idea of who they are. The vast majority of people do, in fact, have a strong sense of identity with their gender, regardless of their physical body.

 

I am fairly certain that a man who's suffered an accident and lost his penis does not stop seeing himself as a man. Because the penis has little to do with it. Same with a woman who loses her breasts or uterus to cancer. She does not stop seeing herself as a woman because the relevant part are now gone. Maybe some people will decide to identify as genderless, but they will not be the norm in that regard. Sex and gender are not entirely divorced from each other, but they are not interchangeable.

 

What I don't understand is why can't you treat your body like what it is - sex? Your body is not WHO you are it's WHAT you are. I believe that there is nothing that comes from internally, there is just the feelings towards how you are treated by society, and that comes from society gender norms. 

 

Wouldn't it really be more productive to try and destroy gender, rather than try and identify as one? To be who you are regardless of what society tell you? You are letting society make you hate your own body, just because they think that a person with a particular body should act a certain way. There is nothing wrong with your body, you can behave however you like, and those are two completely different things. 

 

I do not fit the gender norms perfectly myself, I am a man, but some people mistake me for a woman when they see me for the first time, because I do a lot of things that society associates with the female gender, and the only reason I call myself a man is because of my sexual organ, when I say I am a man I am only talking about my sex. And what I don't understand is, why would I need for example to change my sex in order to oblige to society norms? My body if fine, it's not who I am. 

 

Gender is always about ones behavior according to the norms, and I feel like we are at different sides of the barricade because I try to destroy gender where's you try to enforce it by conforming to it and proving society right. 

[KainD]

Being a woman isn't about conforming to gender norms or deciding to identify as one. All you need to be a woman is to be of the female sex. Your body type doesn't make you less of a woman, the way you dress and your interests also don't make you less of a woman. That's actually called a personality. I can't believe we've come to the point of ''being a woman means being feminine according to sex roles and stereotypes and if you don't you're not one''. How backwards. 

 

Personality = Gender. If more in depth Gender is a sub PART of the whole personality. Being a woman means having a female body, having a female body makes society expect you to be feminine. 

[Finnn62]

What I don't understand is why can't you treat your body like what it is - sex? Your body is not WHO you are it's WHAT you are. I believe that there is nothing that comes from internally, there is just the feelings towards how you are treated by society, and that comes from society gender norms. 

 

Wouldn't it really be more productive to try and destroy gender, rather than try and identify as one? To be who you are regardless of what society tell you? You are letting society make you hate your own body, just because they think that a person with a particular body should act a certain way. There is nothing wrong with your body, you can behave however you like, and those are two completely different things. 

 

I do not fit the gender norms perfectly myself, I am a man, but some people mistake me for a woman when they see me for the first time, because I do a lot of things that society associates with the female gender, and the only reason I call myself a man is because of my sexual organ, when I say I am a man I am only talking about my sex. And what I don't understand is, why would I need for example to change my sex in order to oblige to society norms? My body if fine, it's not who I am. 

 

Gender is always about ones behavior according to the norms, and I feel like we are at different sides of the barricade because I try to destroy gender where's you try to enforce it by conforming to it and proving society right. 

At the risk of offending others, I kind of agree with you, but if people want to define themselves a certain way with regards to gendered language, I don't feel I should stand in their way. That said, I know that I am against gender roles, norms, & stereotypes, but I'm a little uncertain how trans-people can be explained without them. Is it simply this "body dysphoria" that makes them so? A deep feeling inside that they should have other genitalia? 

 

Personally, I'm male and to some extent fit a vastly imperfect and imprecise "masculine" stereotype, I guess, but I don't really know that I feel about my body one way or the other. I have male genitalia, but I've never had female genitalia, so I have no idea if that would better or worse. Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like, but I don't think I'd act much differently if I was female. I'm not sure I can relate to the deep feeling of your body being right or wrong for you, but if that's what you feel, that's what you feel. I could more easily comprehend that issue of not feeling your body's sex is right than not feeling you fit into a "gender", though. I do know that I am attracted to people with female genitalia, who act and dress in ways that may be considered more "masculine". Sometimes, I wonder if it'd be easier if I was female; there seem to be more "masculine" lesbians than "masculine" straight women out there. I really don't care enough to want to change my body, though. I could be wrong, having never been there, but I couldn't see myself caring enough to change my body if I was female either.

Of course, I feel the need to clarify again just in case by saying I wish to give all of you respect, and not define or categorize any of you in ways that you would rather not be. If you want to be a man or a woman, that's cool with me. I may not fully understand, but I don't want to be a jerk about it. 

[Meraxes]

Personality = Gender. If more in depth Gender is a sub PART of the whole personality. Being a woman means having a female body, having a female body makes society expect you to be feminine. 

How do you define intersex people? Do you think they have no right to call themselves 'men' or 'women?'.

[Meraxes]

At the risk of offending others, I kind of agree with you, but if people want to define themselves a certain way with regards to gendered language, I don't feel I should stand in their way. That said, I know that I am against gender roles, norms, & stereotypes, but I'm a little uncertain how trans-people can be explained without them. Is it simply this "body dysphoria" that makes them so? A deep feeling inside that they should have other genitalia? 

 

Personally, I'm male and to some extent fit a vastly imperfect and imprecise "masculine" stereotype, I guess, but I don't really know that I feel about my body one way or the other. I have male genitalia, but I've never had female genitalia, so I have no idea if that would better or worse. Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like, but I don't think I'd act much differently if I was female. I'm not sure I can relate to the deep feeling of your body being right or wrong for you, but if that's what you feel, that's what you feel. I could more easily comprehend that issue of not feeling your body's sex is right than not feeling you fit into a "gender", though. I do know that I am attracted to people with female genitalia, who act and dress in ways that may be considered more "masculine". Sometimes, I wonder if it'd be easier if I was female; there seem to be more "masculine" lesbians than "masculine" straight women out there. I really don't care enough to want to change my body, though. I could be wrong, having never been there, but I couldn't see myself caring enough to change my body if I was female either.

Of course, I feel the need to clarify again just in case by saying I wish to give all of you respect, and not define or categorize any of you in ways that you would rather not be. If you want to be a man or a woman, that's cool with me. I may not fully understand, but I don't want to be a jerk about it. 

Sometimes you don't know something is wrong before it's actually wrong.

 

I've heard of trans women trying to cut off their genitals with scissors as children because 'it shouldn't be there'. I'm not trans so I can't say how it feels, but the trans people I know describe at as simply feeling like those parts are wrong.

[KainD]

How do you define intersex people? Do you think they have no right to call themselves 'men' or 'women?'.

 

I think that they should not call themselves men or women. I think it shouldn't be a problem or something that they should be ashamed of, they simply do not physically match ''men'' and ''women''. This is where our language is lacking, we should have a word for people like that. I personally would follow through with adapting a new name, if say I lost my genitals in an accident. But again that's ONLY about my sex, absolutely has nothing to do with who I am as a person. 

[LilyasAvalon]

While there's a bit of debate going on it's nice to see majority of this topic is filled with civilised and mature people.

[Finnn62]

Sometimes you don't know something is wrong before it's actually wrong.

 

I've heard of trans women trying to cut off their genitals with scissors as children because 'it shouldn't be there'. I'm not trans so I can't say how it feels, but the trans people I know describe at as simply feeling like those parts are wrong.

Okay, that I could understand, to an extent, and it sounds absolutely terrible. As long as we avoid "gender" in the sense of stereotypical behavior patterns. I don't see why things like clothing types and hobbies should be thought of as some package deal "gendered" lifestyle.

 

While there's a bit of debate going on it's nice to see majority of this topic is filled with civilised and mature people.

I agree 

[Meraxes]

I think that they should not call themselves men or women. I think it shouldn't be a problem or something that they should be ashamed of, they simply do not physically match ''men'' and ''women''. This is where our language is lacking, we should have a word for people like that. I personally would follow through with adapting a new name, if say I lost my genitals in an accident. But again that's ONLY about my sex, absolutely has nothing to do with who I am as a person. 

I'm sure you felt like you were being very accepting when you wrote that, but here's the thing.

 

There are many different ways to be intersex, there are many different medical conditions under the intersex umbrella. Some intersex people will go their entire lives without knowing. Sex is not as simple as you think it is.

 

Should we create new names and pronouns for every single one of those medical conditions? You do seem really concerned about keeping the sexes 'pure'. 

 

Should those with xyy syndrome for example also call themselves something new (noting that plenty of xxy people don't consider themselves intersex)?

 

Also losing your genitals would not change your biological sex, bud.

[KainD]

I'm sure you felt like you were being very accepting when you wrote that, but here's the thing.

 

There are many different ways to be intersex, there are many different medical conditions under the intersex umbrella. Some intersex people will go their entire lives without knowing. Sex is not as simple as you think it is.

 

Should we create new names and pronouns for every single one of those medical conditions? You do seem really concerned about keeping the sexes 'pure'. 

 

Should those with xyy syndrome for example also call themselves something new (noting that plenty of xxy people don't consider themselves intersex)?

 

Also losing your genitals would not change your biological sex, bud.

 

 

Bottom line is most people are concerned with keeping the race alive, the way that happens is through reproduction. In order to reproduce you have to be either a healthy man or a healthy woman. I really dunno, maybe say everyone else that cannot reproduce could be called one third pronoun? It might come across as terribly offensive but I think it's just rational, since there is no function of sex other than reproduction. ( Not talking about sex act, talking about sex identity )

Not that I personally care for reproduction, but the society does and that's why they divide the sexes. 

 

If it wasn't for sex, I'd say use just one pronoun for everybody. 

 

Srsly wish we were Asari.. 

[Meraxes]

Bottom line is most people are concerned with keeping the race alive, the way that happens is through reproduction. In order to reproduce you have to be either a healthy man or a healthy woman. I really dunno, maybe say everyone else that cannot reproduce could be called one third pronoun? It might come across as terribly offensive but I think it's just rational, since there is no function of sex other than reproduction. ( Not talking about sex act, talking about sex identity )

Not that I personally care for reproduction, but the society does and that's why they divide the sexes. 

 

If it wasn't for sex, I'd say use just one pronoun for everybody. 

 

Srsly wish we were Asari.. 

Oh, so infertile people should also change pronouns now? Even if they've been called by another their entire lives?

 

Are elderly people also a part of this third sex? Since most of them can't have children anymore?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Well, not with that attitude you won't.

Not ever. It is a question of possibility, not probability.

 

If you think that by closing your eyes and wishing really really hard, or even by cosmetically changing your body, that you become what you desire, then I have some sad news for you.

 

Don't get me wrong. I can respect people who feel they have a close affinity for an animal, even to the point of obsession. But the moment they cross the line, and begin to think that they actually ARE one of these animals, then we are passing into the realm of mental illness and delusions.

[KainD]

Oh, so infertile people should also change pronouns now? Even if they've been called by another their entire lives?

 

Are elderly people also a part of this third sex? Since most of them can't have children anymore?

 

Yeah sounds complicated. 

 

Like I said, maybe call everybody by one same pronoun in everyday life, and then if you are interested in sex and / or family you could ask them whether they are a man, a woman or X.