239 réponses à ce sujet

[Meraxes]

Yeah sounds complicated. 

 

Like I said, maybe call everybody by one same pronoun in everyday life, and then if you are interested in sex and / or family you could ask them whether they are a man, a woman or X. 

In certain cultures there's no gendered pronouncs. They still have gender norms and stereotyping.

 

My point is, sex is not simple, so defining people solely based on their sexual characteristics is also not simple.

 

I agree that gender not existing (clarifying: social gender) would be ideal. But I don't believe a genderless society is something we're ever going to accomplish.

[Finnn62]

In certain cultures there's no gendered pronouncs. They still have gender norms and stereotyping.

 

My point is, sex is not simple, so defining people solely based on their sexual characteristics is also not simple.

 

I agree that gender not existing (clarifying: social gender) would be ideal. But I don't believe a genderless society is something we're ever going to accomplish.

That's a shame, but at least the three of us (you, KainD, & myself) can agree on the ideal of a (social) genderless society. That would be great if it wasn't unattainable.

[EmperorSahlertz]

In certain cultures there's no gendered pronouncs. They still have gender norms and stereotyping.

 

My point is, sex is not simple, so defining people solely based on their sexual characteristics is also not simple.

 

I agree that gender not existing (clarifying: social gender) would be ideal. But I don't believe a genderless society is something we're ever going to accomplish.

Why would a genderless society even be something worthy of striving for? So that the 1%(probably an overshot even) of the world's population who doesn't feel comfortable identifying with the sex they were born with, can be comfortable? What about the remaining 99% that feels perfectly comfortable calling eachother him/her he/she, and use these terms for clarification. Mind you, these terms are only a source of confusion, when someone does not want to adhere to them.

[KainD]

Why would a genderless society even be something worthy of striving for? So that the 1%(probably an overshot even) of the world's population who doesn't feel comfortable identifying with the sex they were born with, can be comfortable? What about the remaining 99% that feels perfectly comfortable calling eachother him/her he/she, and use these terms for clarification. Mind you, these terms are only a source of confusion, when someone does not want to adhere to them.

 

Well for one, I don't think that people would ever be uncomfortable with their sex if gender didn't exist. The other 99% don't really lose anything, if anything you are more free to express yourself in any way you see fit without any kind of prejudice or judgement, you wouldn't have any pressure to act any way. 

[Finnn62]

Why would a genderless society even be something worthy of striving for? So that the 1%(probably an overshot even) of the world's population who doesn't feel comfortable identifying with the sex they were born with, can be comfortable? What about the remaining 99% that feels perfectly comfortable calling eachother him/her he/she, and use these terms for clarification. Mind you, these terms are only a source of confusion, when someone does not want to adhere to them.

Well, I would be talking of gender as a social construct. What benefit do we get from saying certain people have to do certain things because of the way they were born anyways? Convenience? I don't think it's worth the harmful stereotypes we form by saying "women are like this, and men are like that". It's just constrictive.

[Meraxes]

Why would a genderless society even be something worthy of striving for? So that the 1%(probably an overshot even) of the world's population who doesn't feel comfortable identifying with the sex they were born with, can be comfortable? What about the remaining 99% that feels perfectly comfortable calling eachother him/her he/she, and use these terms for clarification. Mind you, these terms are only a source of confusion, when someone does not want to adhere to them.

Gender is more than pronouns.

 

When people talk about genderless societies it's more how it would someplace where preconceived notions about what a woman or a man or whatever should like, do etc. don't exist. Gender is gender norms, how we are raised, the way we're talked to, the way we talk, what we can do and much more.

 

It's likely that even if we ever achieved such a society people would still use gendered pronouns because it's convienient and gendering is a big part of certain languages (where words change based on whether something is masculine or feminine). It would just not carry the weight it does in most places today.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gender is more than pronouns.

It actually isn't.

 

I don't believe that any sex should be treated differently than the other, but I do believe that it is extremely important to remember the distinction between the two. After all there ARE differences, to ignore them is to be intellectually dishonest.

[Meraxes]

It actually isn't.

 

I don't believe that any sex should be treated differently than the other, but I do believe that it is extremely important to remember the distinction between the two. After all there ARE differences, to ignore them is to be intellectually dishonest.

What?

 

Newsflash! Different genders are treated differently. That's how the world works. It's not right but that's the way it is. 

 

Gender are the very things I listed. As long as those things exist, gender will exist. That makes gender more than pronouns. Did you read what I wrote?

[EmperorSahlertz]

What?

 

Newsflash! Different genders are treated differently. That's how the world works. It's not right but that's the way it is. 

 

Gender are the very things I listed. As long as those things exist, gender will exist. That makes gender more than pronouns. Did you read what I wrote?

But the way they are treated are the constructs, not the genders themselves. Genders are the factual differences between men and women.

[KainD]

It actually isn't.

 

I don't believe that any sex should be treated differently than the other, but I do believe that it is extremely important to remember the distinction between the two. After all there ARE differences, to ignore them is to be intellectually dishonest.

 

For YOU it isn't. But to pretend that genders are not being treated differently by society is intellectually dishonest.  

[KainD]

Genders are the factual differences between men and women.

 

That's sex. 

[Former_Fiend]

Not ever. It is a question of possibility, not probability.

 

If you think that by closing your eyes and wishing really really hard, or even by cosmetically changing your body, that you become what you desire, then I have some sad news for you.

 

Don't get me wrong. I can respect people who feel they have a close affinity for an animal, even to the point of obsession. But the moment they cross the line, and begin to think that they actually ARE one of these animals, then we are passing into the realm of mental illness and delusions.

 

I think you're underestimating where surgical techniques and genetic therapy will be in twenty years. 

[Meraxes]

But the way they are treated are the constructs, not the genders themselves. Genders are the factual differences between men and women.

Gender is in large a construct. Biological sex are the factual differences between sexes. Gender is mostly social characteristics.

 

When we talk about gender we're usually discussing cultural and social differences rather than biological ones. It's going to be hard to have this discussion with you if you don't understand these basic terms.

[Pierce Miller]

Krem is a woman that wants to be a man. That's the simplistic way of putting it anyway.

[Finnn62]

Krem is a woman that wants to be a man. That's the simplistic way of putting it anyway.

With the amount of discussion that has happened in this thread, I think that's a bit too simplistic, tbh. Many people will argue with you.

[Pierce Miller]

Finnn62, on 27 Nov 2014 - 7:37 PM, said:

With the amount of discussion that has happened in this thread, I think that's a bit too simplistic, tbh. Many people will argue with you.

They will argue but it's pretty much the truth.

[Roamingmachine]

This is why i'm glad the pronouns in my native language are gender neutral.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Gender is in large a construct. Biological sex are the factual differences between sexes. Gender is mostly social characteristics.

 

When we talk about gender we're usually discussing cultural and social differences rather than biological ones. It's going to be hard to have this discussion with you if you don't understand these basic terms.

In my coutnry sex and gender is the exact same thing. If you don't udnerstand that THIS is the way it should be, then this discussion is pointless. With that being said, in my coutnry we don't really give a damn how people want to identify themselves. If someone is born a woman, but wants to be a man, more power to her (or him, whatever). But the second they start to try and complain and say that society should conform to THEIR needs, that is when we start taking issue.

 

I think you're underestimating where surgical techniques and genetic therapy will be in twenty years. 

Considering that sex-change is a factual impossibility (a man can never become an actual woman, he just becomes a man with a mutilated penis and saline injected boobs), the very idea of being able to change species entirely is ludicrous.

[Finnn62]

Considering that sex-change is a factual impossibility (a man can never become an actual woman, he just becomes a man with a mutilated penis and saline injected boobs), the very idea of being able to change species entirely is ludicrous.

You must realize he's joking, right?

[Former_Fiend]

You must realize he's joking, right?

 

Well now you had to go and ruin it.

[Meraxes]

 

In my coutnry sex and gender is the exact same thing. If you don't udnerstand that THIS is the way it should be, then this discussion is pointless. With that being said, in my coutnry we don't really give a damn how people want to identify themselves. If someone is born a woman, but wants to be a man, more power to her (or him, whatever). But the second they start to try and complain and say that society should conform to THEIR needs, that is when we start taking issue.

You mean the word for sex and gender probably are the same. It's almost the same in my country (there's a word for gender but it's rarely used), which by the way is actually very progressive.

 

I have a very hard time believing most of this. Your country (Can I ask which one it is?) almost certainly have social gender constructs. Not having a word for it doesn't equal it not existing.

[EmperorSahlertz]

You must realize he's joking, right?

Trust me. If you've ever dared the landscape of tumblr, then you would realize that there are people who actually believe they can become hamsters/wolves/gazelles/dinosaurs/planets, if they just wish for it hard enough.

 

So you can never be certain. Especially since I don't rank BSN particularly much higher than 4chan, which is just a smidge higher than tumbler, on these subjects.

[Former_Fiend]

Trust me. If you've ever dared the landscape of tumblr, then you would realize that there are people who actually believe they can become hamsters/wolves/gazelles/dinosaurs/planets, if they just wish for it hard enough.

 

So you can never be certain. Especially since I don't rank BSN particularly much higher than 4chan, which is just a smidge higher than tumbler, on these subjects.

 

For what it's worth, yes, I was joking. Could have kept that running for another five pages or so, too. Oh well; I'll need to find my amusement elsewhere.

[Finnn62]

For what it's worth, yes, I was joking. Could have kept that running for another five pages or so, too. Oh well; I'll need to find my amusement elsewhere.

Sorry to ruin the fun 

[Roamingmachine]

 

In my coutnry sex and gender is the exact same thing. If you don't udnerstand that THIS is the way it should be, then this discussion is pointless. With that being said, in my coutnry we don't really give a damn how people want to identify themselves. If someone is born a woman, but wants to be a man, more power to her (or him, whatever). But the second they start to try and complain and say that society should conform to THEIR needs, that is when we start taking issue.

 

Considering that sex-change is a factual impossibility (a man can never become an actual woman, he just becomes a man with a mutilated penis and saline injected boobs), the very idea of being able to change species entirely is ludicrous.

 

 

Kinda glad now that i live in a country whose people are just socially awkward and these things just cause nervous fidgeting. What you describe doesnt sound nice at all.