154 réponses à ce sujet

[King Dragonlord]

Our newly over-sensitive liberal culture needs to remember that there's a difference between flirting and harassment. Flirting is a natural approach to conversation, and can be anywhere between harmless and provacative. Harassment is when it crosses a line and makes the other person uncomfortable. Unless Harding clearly becomes uncomfortable, there's no harm in the Inquisitor choosing to try and flirt with her.

 

I hate all of the debates going on between overly sensitive "social justice warriors" and overly insensitive morons. People are becoming scared of simply flirting with people because it could be taken as "harassment". Call out actual harassment and let people be people.

 

You know fair is fair. I figured if I let this thread run long enough I'd get lumped in with liberals. I was actually a conservative Republican for a long time before becoming a libertarian who on occasion shares a view with the left (like on the Death Penalty and weed). 

 

The thing is, I would normally agree with you. If they were just coworkers they should be able to flirt until one expresses a desire for it to stop (and as long as the nature of the flirting isn't offensively graphic to others within earshot but thats just good manners). But with a boss its different. People are often scared to rock the boat. I've had some experience with this through friends. Subtle rejections lead to subtle reprisals and he said she said and all that. 

 

So while I do agree with you about overly sensitive types on the internet in general, I do feel like bosses should be help to higher standards (though how much of that should be law or not is a matter of debate.) 

[Finnn62]

I have trouble seeing anything related to flirting as simple as I'm not really the outgoing, well-spoken type. It seems harmless enough from the Harding flirts I've chosen, though.

[Captain Coffee]

I have done the flirt dialogue options for scout Harding once or twice, and it feels to me like she feels really awkward about it. That paired with your excellent point about being both her superior and a religious icon definitely puts it over the line for me. The other LI's are different because they are mostly friends or at least peers before you become the inquisitor. Harding is awesome, but she is always a subordinate who looks up to you. I think its not ok.

[Gill Kaiser]

In Commander Shepard's case, I never thought it was an issue, because outside of Ashley and Kaiden none of the love interests were really subservient to him/her. They respected Shepard but once he/she became a Spectre they were part of an unorthadox special forces group and there was no clear chain of command.

[Maria Caliban]

Flirting in Dragon Age with a woman who is part of the organization you head is not a problem. If Leliana were to start a relationship with one of her scouts or Cullen were to make advances to one of his soldiers, the situation might be different.

Flirting in the real world with a subordinate can be a problem, especially if your business' policies forbid such behavior.
 

Thedas is a Dark Fantasy universe were abuse of power, brainwashing, slavery, rape and murder etc. are fairly common, and sexual harassment is what bothers you?

Well then, if it's not rape, murder, or slavery, it's obviously nothing worth discussing.

I have trouble seeing anything related to flirting as simple as I'm not really the outgoing, well-spoken type. It seems harmless enough from the Harding flirts I've chosen, though.

Human interactions are never simple so flirting isn't simple.

Unless you're flirting with goats or something. That might be simple.

[Tarvesh]

Position of power matters - e.g. Teacher dating a pupil over the age of consent. This obviously is completely different, but dismissing it entirely is unwise.

Shepard did a lot of bad stuff - for example, virtually everyone in ME2 was forced to help out (e.g. Tali had a choice between suicide mission, or immediate death at the hands of the geth - as such, her "consent" is pretty meaningless)

Shepherd save Tali no matter what. Her joining you is never a condition of saving her. You can even tell her to go back with Teeger.

She chooses to go with him.

Not once does Shepherd say to any of his teammates 'join me or I let you die'. Now he can choose Samara's daughter over her, or leave the merc (whose name escapes me) to die after he goes crazy.

The best case you make is with Jack. But she's effing crazy and that was a railroaded rock in a hard place as it is.

All of Shepherd's romances were also subordinates. But, again, it's never a 'do this or die or go away' sort of thing. Bioware doesn't do nonconsentual.

[Finnn62]

Human interactions are never simple so flirting isn't simple.

Unless you're flirting with goats or something. That might be simple.

Yeah for sure. Human interaction can be just terrifying, no joke. Never tried flirting with goats, though. I actually imagine that'd be a lot tougher due to spoken language & body language barrier issues.

[King Dragonlord]

Thedas is a Dark Fantasy universe were abuse of power, brainwashing, slavery, rape and murder etc. are fairly common, and sexual harassment is what bothers you? 

Just want to follow up on something here and this can apply to a lot of these discussions.

 

The game's story generally treats those other things you listed in such a way as to indicate that the characters or at least the writers are framing those actions as wrong. Notably the heroes never do any of those things except possibly murder and abuse of power (their normal killing is not murder but you do occasionally get put in situations where you can commit actual murder and the game will usually frame that choice in such a way as to let you know you're committing an immoral act.)

 

But the only clue we get that it might be wrong to flirt with Harding is her awkwardness. Now that awkwardness could simply come from her being a bit intimidated by you but at the same time, it may keep her from voicing her desire for you to stop. The game never calls you out on it like it does when you commit other morally grey acts. 

 

So that's something for you to keep in mind in future discussions of this type. Its not about whether or not bad stuff happens. I'm fine with bad stuff happening and honestly it doesn't even bother me too much that this exists with Harding. Even in a fantasy version of the medieval era, they're clearly not going to have rules about this sort of thing, just like they're not going to have anything like OSHA. 

[Sir DeLoria]

I don't understand why some people read so much into this. It it's not offensive, flirting is absolutely harmless and innocent.

By modern military standards it might be seen as problematic fraternization, but those are hardly applicable to a medieval esque, demi-religious army.

[Rannik]

It is not, but even if it were I can't see the problem with it.

 

Not much of roleplaying game if you can't play different roles (including why not, an abusive superior / boss / icon / whatever).

[Insaner Robot]

Harding is more than okay with the flirting, as she eventually brings it up herself if you choose the option often enough.

[Former_Fiend]

Flirting with Scout Harding is no different from flirting with anyone else once you become Inquisitor. 

 

Being an authority figure doesn't require a vow of celibacy. 

[Dream]

Honestly, the only flirting that doesn't feel awkward to me because of the whole, superior/subordinate thing, is with Dorian, but perhaps that's because Dorian really chose to ally with you rather than you employing him (and the mage quest gives you a sense of camaraderie that the other characters don't get, time travel and all). I actually am thinking about not pursuing the Iron Bull in future runs because he's too formal with me (but apparently, not with Dorian? Wtf). Calling me his boss every time I end a conversation that I may or may not have flirted with him in. Yeesh.

[draken-heart]

OP: Here is the thing when it comes to this subject. Sexual Harassment is unwanted, usually. She seems receptive enough to sort of flirt back, so it is not like it is today.
 
Here is a definition of sexual harassment:

Spoiler

Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment.

 

I do not think that flirting is considered sexual harassment, unless the person outright tells you no.

[King Dragonlord]

Maybe its because she's so short. 

 

That must be it. Ok, forget I said anything folks. 

 

EDIT: Although not as short as Dagna. Are we sure Dagnas a dwarf? Because I'm thinking she might be a gnome. 

[Sylentmana]

It's not sexual harrassment unless you continue after she has made it clear she doesn't appreciate it.  It is very unprofessional, however.

[CuriousArtemis]

How Is casually flirting with her... Harassment? Is this how people think these days?

 

If my male boss flirted with me, yes, I would feel extremely uncomfortable. If a male colleague did it I would roll my eyes and feel annoyed, but I would not feel intimidated or nervous. It is very different when it's a boss doing it because that person has immense power over you, and flirting, especially male-to-female flirting, already puts the male in a power position over the female. You have to be in a situation where you're expecting to be flirted with and willing to enjoy it... like a bar or a social event. Not your workplace. At your workplace, you're a professional and the only things you want people noticing, especially your superiors, are your ideas and your results.

[CuriousArtemis]

I do not think that flirting is considered sexual harassment, unless the person outright tells you no.

 

In the workplace, flirting is sexual harassment. Not just my opinion but state guideliness where I live. We even have to watch a video... a video we all laughed about because we thought, who doesn't know this sh!t, but apparently... *looks around the thread* LOL

[Former_Fiend]

If my male boss flirted with me, yes, I would feel extremely uncomfortable. If a male colleague did it I would roll my eyes and feel annoyed, but I would not feel intimidated or nervous. It is very different when it's a boss doing it because that person has immense power over you, and flirting, especially male-to-female flirting, already puts the male in a power position over the female. You have to be in a situation where you're expecting to be flirted with and willing to enjoy it... like a bar or a social event. Not your workplace. At your workplace, you're a professional and the only things you want people noticing, especially your superiors, are your ideas and your results.

 

Your reaction to being flirted with by your boss is not every woman's reaction to that same situation. 

[CuriousArtemis]

Your reaction to being flirted with by your boss is not every woman's reaction to that same situation. 

 

Sure, of course not, every person is different; but state laws are set up to protect employees/the powerless; whether you're personally offended by the perpetrator or not is beside the point.

 

EDIT: Also, it would be most women's reaction, FYI. 

[Sir DeLoria]

How exactly is flirting defined by state law? Because the term is pretty loosely defined.

[StarcloudSWG]

I found Harding's response to flirting to be pretty interesting.

 

At first, she doesn't really know you, or know what you're like. Flirting at this stage (before Skyhold) is on the awkward side. Not quite unwelcome but not quite welcome, either. She tends to ignore it or sidestep it, which is pretty accurate to real life.

 

After Skyhold, however, her reactions change somewhat. She knows you better at this point, and you're able to talk to her sometimes at Skyhold. At this stage, she accepts being flirted with in that playful "We both know it's not going to go anywhere but it's a fun, brief diversion" sort of way.

 

Yes, it's sexual harassment by definition because of the power differential, but it's also two people talking playfully. Harding takes orders from Leliana, not the Inquisitor, and Leliana puts her people in the jobs they do best regardless of what the Inquisitor thinks.

[CuriousArtemis]

How exactly is flirting defined by state law? Because the term is pretty loosely defined.

 

That would be decided on a case-by-case basis. It shouldn't be hard though. An employer should be focused on his/her employee's work output and overall effectiveness... not how nice that red dress looks on them today.

[Vanth]

I agree with the OP. It is an abuse of authority. But then so is every DA:I "romance".

[Former_Fiend]

Sure, of course not, every person is different; but state laws are set up to protect employees/the powerless; whether you're personally offended by the perpetrator or not is beside the point.

 

EDIT: Also, it would be most women's reaction, FYI. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't deny for a moment that sexual harassment happens; I've witnessed it first hand. Plenty of men and women in positions of authority abuse that authority in regards to pursuing those beneath them, and it's a disgusting practice. 

 

But I would argue that it is only harassment if it's unwelcome. You can't make someone out to be the victim when they don't consider them victimized. I've had female managers flirt with me; nothing came of it, didn't disrupt the work environment at all. Just created a relaxed, informal atmosphere. Is that going to be the same for everyone? No, of course not. 

 

In any event, the Inquisition isn't a work place. Orlais and Ferelden don't have laws saying who a person can or can't flirt with, regardless of whether or not some might believe they should be in place.