154 réponses à ce sujet

[Gallimatia]

Hm? The pay issue is almost universal (relative wealthiness is typically reserved for senior officers/generals), while plenty of military organizations have had such policies. Militias in particular have weak retention ability, which is what the Inquisition really functions as.

 

The Inquisition relies on voluntary militia and borrowed armies for its manpower needs. The later don't have a choice of leaving because other people hold them accountable, while former can't be held to task or else no one would want to volunteer.

 

A voluntary militia is a good comparison. They are weak forces with weak retention that do not motivate people to fight. The people in them can not be held to task and so they are relatively free to flirt in my opinion.

[King Dragonlord]

Calling the Inquisition a charity organization is more than a slight stretch, and being a volunteer for the mission of the Inquisition is irrelevant to volunteering to romantic advances from superiors.

 

Unless the mission of the Inquisition is to provide the Inquisitor people to flirt with. But I don't recall hearing that anywhere.

 

That would actually be an interesting plot point. If some random stranger stumbled out of the Fade with the ability to close the rifts, and he/shes the only one with that ability, I would make darned sure they're well supplied, kept happy, and protected. We're talking about a completely unique ability here (equally plausible, they strap you to a table in the basement of a Circle Tower and experiment endlessly on you to figure out if your power can be duplicated.) 

 

It could be a plot point where multiple honeys and/or beefcakes come up to your room one night and you (if you're playing a more noble minded Inquisitor) could inquire and discover that they were hired and sent to your room to keep you happy and then have a nice long chat with Lelianna (because if any of your generals would do that, it would be her.) 

[Dean_the_Young]

I'd also argue that this isn't a matter of opinion; either someone can consent in a given circumstance or they cannot. Consent isn't something with much wiggle room for opinions.

 

The fiendishly tricky part is separating 'consent' from 'lack of coercion.' Can someone truly give consent in the presence of a coercive factor?

 

That's a hugely subjective distinction, and the spectrum of what is acceptable levels of potential coercion is significant.

[Dean_the_Young]

A voluntary militia is a good comparison. They are weak forces with weak retention that do not motivate people to fight. The people in them can not be held to task and so they are relatively free to flirt in my opinion.

 

They're relatively free because they're relatively unprofessional.

 

Which is fine, of course, if you're comfortable with an unprofessional Inquisitor.

[Dean_the_Young]

That would actually be an interesting plot point. If some random stranger stumbled out of the Fade with the ability to close the rifts, and he/shes the only one with that ability, I would make darned sure they're well supplied, kept happy, and protected. We're talking about a completely unique ability here (equally plausible, they strap you to a table in the basement of a Circle Tower and experiment endlessly on you to figure out if your power can be duplicated.) 

 

It could be a plot point where multiple honeys and/or beefcakes come up to your room one night and you (if you're playing a more noble minded Inquisitor) could inquire and discover that they were hired and sent to your room to keep you happy and then have a nice long chat with Lelianna (because if any of your generals would do that, it would be her.) 

 

This is an amazingly history-justified way to make player characters uncomfortable and uneasy with some of the implications of power and importance, and I am utterly aghast I didn't think of it myself.

 

If you really wanted to channel the creep factor, channel the north korean marriage that Charles Jenkins went through. Nothing says 'our authoritarian regime cares for you' like a provided bride.

 

But I'll settle for a courtesan.

[King Dragonlord]

This is an amazingly history-justified way to make player characters uncomfortable and uneasy with some of the implications of power and importance, and I am utterly aghast I didn't think of it myself.

 

If you really wanted to channel the creep factor, channel the north korean marriage that Charles Jenkins went through. Nothing says 'our authoritarian regime cares for you' like a provided bride.

 

But I'll settle for a courtesan.

 

My inspiration (apart from this discussion) was Deep Space Nine. In one episode Sisko crash lands on a planet where technology doesn't work which contains a human colony that is conveniently led by a woman who basically hates technology* 

 

One night Sisko, who has been defiant, is visited by a beautiful young woman who offers him a massage after a hard day in the field, and as it starts to get sensual, Sisko stops it and realizes she's been sent by the leader to "make him comfortable." (Although the leader insists that the woman did like Sisko and she merely encouraged the visit.). Sisko is outraged. 

[Degs29]

Thread lockdown in 3...2...1....

[King Dragonlord]

Thread lockdown in 3...2...1....

Seems you don't have that authority.

We have threads that go on for hundreds or thousands of pages. Yet you object to this one even continuing to exist

[Degs29]

Seems you don't have that authority.

We have threads that go on for hundreds or thousands of pages. Yet you object to this one even continuing to exist

 

Wow, didn't we jump to conclusions?

 

I have no problem with threads such as this existing.  In fact, I've railed against thread lockdowns.  I'm merely assuming Bioware forum moderators will shut this down.  They have a history.

[Lady Artifice]

Look, personally I simply consider the implication that a person of lower rank or status is by default, incapable of giving consent to a person of higher status or rank, to be demeaning and more than a little insulting. It's imposing victimization on people who don't necessarily feel victimized and painting people acting on normal, healthy human emotions as predators for doing so. It deprives both parties of agency if we assume from the start that the Inquisitor cannot express interest in someone without abusing power and that the person they're expressing interest in cannot reciprocate those feelings without being coerced. 

 

I believe - firmly and absolutely - that a relationship between the Inquisitor and a member of the Inquisition can take place in a healthy, moral manner. Perhaps not an ethical, professional one, but the Inquisitor didn't get their position based on professionalism. They got their position based on their decisiveness and inspirational nature. 

 

Punishing them for that by holding them up on this pedestal of impossibly high standards dehumanizes them - turns them into one of those statues of Andraste holding bowls of fire. A very large portion of this game goes towards taking a person who's being lifted up as a religious icon and showing that they're still a person, with wants, needs, flaws, quirks. I feel that the expectation that they should be celibate because you can't accept that a relationship with a power imbalance can happen and still be healthy diminishes the character.

 

I also agree with Xil - and that doesn't happen very often - that incorporating a character completely outside the Inquisitor's direct influence to serve as a romance is impractical from a design and story telling standpoint. I feel that such a character would be obstructive to the plot and would largely exist for no other reason than to have someone for the Inquisitor to stick it in. The existing romances a strong because all of the LI's serve a purpose beyond being a love interest; they all contribute to the cause and to the plot. 

 

 

Well said, as usual. 

[Lady Artifice]

It is fine my Lady.

 

Yes, we do. Personally I would not describe them in such manner but yes, we can be gloriously dominating over our prey.

 

Yes, I think so, yes, they are framed this way, to a certain degree and under influence of certain morality codes. Dragon Age on the other hand, from what I gather, is not using the same kind of interface. We don't have such options as [Kill him with the inner darkness of your heart. Do you feel your black artery? It is craving for blood], we just get [Kill]. I have not encountered this particular npc that we are discussing here but I guess there is an option to avoid flirt. I say, let players choose whatever they want, if they want to get a slave and make him/her amorously entertain PC for a piece of bread, then sure, let them. I think it was the case in DAII where you could flirt with Fenris and then give him back to his Tevinter master.

 

 

 

 

Let me make sure I understand. You do think it's written to be sexual harassment, and that's cool because it's embracing the dark side of the force?

 

Lol. Well...can't argue with that.

[Precursor Meta]

Scout Harding is adorable. If I could prop her up on my leg while judging people, I would.

[Aimi]

Or consider DA2, where Hawke's progress through the social classes could justify interaction and relationship with anyone from a noble in hightown to a fellow Ferelden refugee in low town... and well before Hawke has any greater rank than either of them.

Romantic plotlines for Hawke predate her assumption of the title of Champion and in most cases flirts can start even before the Deep Roads expedition. Hawke is never the head of an organization and is never described as a professional anything; her companions aren't under her orders but are instead basically just her closest friends.

Which makes DA2 maybe the only BioWare game since KotOR to have companion romances without that particular super-squick factor.

As for everything else, well, you already know I agree with you about almost all of it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Romantic plotlines for Hawke predate her assumption of the title of Champion and in most cases flirts can start even before the Deep Roads expedition. Hawke is never the head of an organization and is never described as a professional anything; her companions aren't under her orders but are instead basically just her closest friends.

Which makes DA2 maybe the only BioWare game since KotOR to have companion romances without that particular super-squick factor.

As for everything else, well, you already know I agree with you about almost all of it.

 

In some respects I think DA2 has been the best Bioware game to date in terms of not only romance variations, but in how the structure of the game favored potential romance types.

 

To start, I for one loved the rivalry and rivalmance system, which took five characters and gave them two different character and relationship arcs, including (and especially) an option for if you disagreed on somethings yet still liked the characters. Romance options were no longer 'thous shalt agree with the NPC or never progress', but instead broaded more. You might not like all the relationship types... but you had more flexibility in how to engage a character.

 

Second, the time skips made a narrative of progression much more credible and convincing. Rather than 'brought together in a brief time of crisis,' to me the DA2 romances and character friendships felt more like 'matured over time.' This also helped with that point about being able to start relationships and such before your rise to power.

 

But thirdly, having the entire game and story set in a single geographic area would have made justifying NPC romances so easy. One of the harder aspects of non-companion romances in many Bioware stories is the question of 'where does the NPC live?' When the party is always traveling and on the move, either the NPC has to be tagging along for some reason (a crewmember on Shepard's ship), or at a centralized position the party returns to with some frequency (advisors at the Keep). But Kirkwall is one giant centralized location, and from the start Hawke has reason to go to all of the major districts, which meant that the common question of how to justify meeting and being accessible is resolved. A low class LI in lowtown, or a noble in hightown, either would have been perfectly accessible and could have been rationalized and incorporated into supporting stories.

[Lord Surinen]

Let me make sure I understand. You do think it's written to be sexual harassment, and that's cool because it's embracing the dark side of the force?

 

Lol. Well...can't argue with that.

No, I do not include the 'harassment' part. In fact I'm avoiding this word altogether. I'm saying that you could get certain benefits from the dark-side-of-the-force decisions. The difference is that in DA games you have no alignment meter and it is great this way.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

Heh heh heh... I also feel odd when I read people squeeing over Scout Harding.  There's a touch of the "she looks and sounds like a kid" to it, and then the question of appropriateness. 

 

Annnnnnd... Penny Arcade just summed up how I feel!

 

[AlphaDormante]

^ I was waiting for someone to post that

[errantknight]

I felt like it was fine a couple times, or so, but to me it gelt a little weird to go past that point. The power gap was just too extreme. I think it might have felt different if I'd been playing a dwarf though, Then there's be more in common.

[Dean_the_Young]

Heh heh heh... I also feel odd when I read people squeeing over Scout Harding.  There's a touch of the "she looks and sounds like a kid" to it, and then the question of appropriateness. 

 

Annnnnnd... Penny Arcade just summed up how I feel!

 

 

Thanks for posting this. You just made my day.

[King Dragonlord]

Heh heh heh... I also feel odd when I read people squeeing over Scout Harding.  There's a touch of the "she looks and sounds like a kid" to it, and then the question of appropriateness. 

 

Annnnnnd... Penny Arcade just summed up how I feel!

 

 

I have to admit, I was worried I was being overly sensitive about this. I'm not normally a part of the leftist sensitivity brigade but if the often politically incorrect Penny Arcade guys noticed this and it bothered them too, I feel a bit more validated. 

 

Also, its really weird for me being a part of the conversation about a game early enough to make an observation before they do a comic about it. I normally wait at least till a game has been knocked down to 30 before buying and I NEVER pre-order (nor will I again. This was a special exception). 

[Jayce]

This is the trouble with subjective issues like this, something that one person finds harmless another finds inappropriate. I don't think there is a 'right' answer.

[DeusGoddess5010]

Does anybody know how you flirt with her? I never get the options no matter what. I play as a female qunari, do I have to not be in a romance or flirt with others?

[King Dragonlord]

Does anybody know how you flirt with her? I never get the options no matter what. I play as a female qunari, do I have to not be in a romance or flirt with others?

 

Maybe flirting is only an option for male inquisitors? Both mine have been male so far and I've been in romances with others (though I can't remember if I was able to flirt with Harding after the "confirmation" of the romance) I'll check on that this playthrough.

[Sifr]

My inspiration (apart from this discussion) was Deep Space Nine. In one episode Sisko crash lands on a planet where technology doesn't work which contains a human colony that is conveniently led by a woman who basically hates technology* 

 

One night Sisko, who has been defiant, is visited by a beautiful young woman who offers him a massage after a hard day in the field, and as it starts to get sensual, Sisko stops it and realizes she's been sent by the leader to "make him comfortable." (Although the leader insists that the woman did like Sisko and she merely encouraged the visit.). Sisko is outraged. 

 

Slightly off-topic, but if you're ever watched any of SFDebris' Trek reviews, he covered that episode and completely eviscerated it, especially because by the end of the episode, the people refusing to leave because they've become so indoctrinated means that the bad guy basically "won".

 

Maybe flirting is only an option for male inquisitors? Both mine have been male so far and I've been in romances with others (though I can't remember if I was able to flirt with Harding after the "confirmation" of the romance) I'll check on that this playthrough.

 

I think that only males are able to flirt with Harding.

 

I never really saw all that much harm in the flirting, at least not in the early parts of the game because at that point you're just as much a common agent of the Inquisition as she is, with only your glowing hand giving you importance within the group.

 

I suppose it becomes a little bit more iffy after you become the Inquisitior, but if we're talking about abuses of power when it comes to our subordinates, what we can do to get Blackwall off the hook in his personal quest actually seems like it's a bigger offender than our office flirting with Harding.

[Violet]

Nah, I don't think it's harassment. She says somethings in the button 2 options that go to pump egos as well. Rather like how with Iron Bull insulting him gains favor. Treating him like 'he deserves to be treated' doesn't go well. That's the case with all the companions and side characters. You chose dialog based on their personalities, not based on what sort of hero/neutral/villain you want to be.