231 réponses à ce sujet

[Kantr]

so you are putting you voice in for a witch hunt style dlc for solas?

Witch hunt with the length of Awakening

[Addai]

Solas himself always says "it's more complicated than that".  Honestly, the dude is a master manipulator and narcissist.  He values spirits over flesh and blood people who are suffering due to his actions in the past.  "His people" need him -- he's not talking about the common elves, he's talking about his god friends.

"The People" is a euphemism for the elven race, or sometimes the Dalish. Flemeth uses it that way. She says it in Origins and again in this game to a Dalish PC.
 

Spoiler

I thought Solas cared little for the elves and instead the Spirits were his favoured party. Especially given that the Dalish portray him as a betrayer of sorts and face all the statues of the dread wolf away from camp and such. Given the ending I expect Solas will play a large part in the future content I theorize a collection by Flem/Solas/OGBsoul of the other old gods souls to stop the 'music' which Flemeth talks about which I think would be the calling out to darkspawn. So Mythal can have some sort of revenge against someone (the maker?) IDK. I expect him to be a very big part. But then again I expected OGB/Morrigan to play a huge part in either DA2 or inquisition and they were sort of used minimally so I could be wrong

If Morrigan's role is an indicator of what we can expect, I'd be very happy with that. I thought her development in this game was excellent and I'm hoping for a Wolf Hunt type plot in an expansion which would give the Solas romance a continuation of some sort.

[Tielis]

jellobell, we will have to agree to disagree.  

 

Unfortunately I was raised by narcissists and didn't really see through it until I was in my 40's.  They believe their own stories, and they make you believe it.  They are that good at what they do.  Yes, I may be projecting onto Solas, but those legends do come from somewhere.  If in the future they are revealed as simply propaganda, then I will accept that.

 

As for Cole's "readings", I am not sure that they are describing the spirit or the human shell.  Again, I could be totally wrong about this.  Solas could be a name the elven noble "god" took in order to help clean up his mess.  He could be just risen from uthenara.  I will be even more heartbroken if this is the case, though, because then I would feel that my Lavellan was even more used by someone who should definitely have known better.

[Tielis]

"The People" is a euphemism for the elven race, or sometimes the Dalish. Flemeth uses it that way. She says it in Origins and again in this game to a Dalish PC.
 
If Morrigan's role is an indicator of what we can expect, I'd be very happy with that. I thought her development in this game was excellent and I'm hoping for a Wolf Hunt type plot in an expansion which would give the Solas romance a continuation of some sort.

 

And if you put Briala in charge of Orlais, and say that you hope he's glad for his people, he's like "what? they're not my people".

[Addai]

I don't know where you get the idea that Solas isn't compassionate towards people. Compassion towards spirits isn't mutually exclusive with showing the same to people. He gives approval bumps for helping the refugees in the Crossroads, for instance. His conversations with Cole about suffering show an analytical mind, but also a lot of sensitivity.

I don't doubt that he's not a white knight. This bothers him, however, and I don't see any evidence that he's bipolar in his morality. He's conflicted, but that's not the same thing. He's very consistent.

And if you put Briala in charge of Orlais, and say that you hope he's glad for his people, he's like "what? they're not my people".

Flemeth always calls the elves "the People," when she and Solas talk he says "the People need me." It's not a coincidence, it's elfspeak.

People exaggerate Solas' statements about Briala. I interpret them to mean he doesn't support everything elves do just because they're elves. Like Abelas, he knows there is good and bad in the elven race, too. It doesn't mean he doesn't identify with the elves. Quite obviously, given his many statements about "my people," he does.

[Tielis]

I never said that he wasn't compassionate.  He's simply an ends justify the means person who is able to make his argument sound completely correct -- and this definitely jives with the old legends.

[Addai]

I never said that he wasn't compassionate.  He's simply an ends justify the means person who is able to make his argument sound completely correct -- and this definitely jives with the old legends.

You said he values spirits over people who are suffering.

I'm not really sure what argument you mean.

[Lady Noelle]

I demand closure. Cloooosuuuuureeeeeee. Solas needs to give my girl some closure or I will straight up lose my emotional sanity.

 

Seriously though give me that closure.

[Tielis]

You said he values spirits over people who are suffering.

I'm not really sure what argument you mean.

 

Is it black and white?  He can't be compassionate towards elves at all because he values spirits above them?

[Addai]

Is it black and white?  He can't be compassionate towards elves at all because he values spirits above them?

That was my point, so I'm not sure what yours is. I wouldn't consider a "master manipulator and narcissist" to have much genuine compassion for anyone.

[jellobell]

jellobell, we will have to agree to disagree.  

 

Unfortunately I was raised by narcissists and didn't really see through it until I was in my 40's.  They believe their own stories, and they make you believe it.  They are that good at what they do.  Yes, I may be projecting onto Solas, but those legends do come from somewhere.  If in the future they are revealed as simply propaganda, then I will accept that.

I've also known Narcissists, and Solas just doesn't seem like that at all.

 

As for Cole's "readings", I am not sure that they are describing the spirit or the human shell.  Again, I could be totally wrong about this.  Solas could be a name the elven noble "god" took in order to help clean up his mess.  He could be just risen from uthenara.  I will be even more heartbroken if this is the case, though, because then I would feel that my Lavellan was even more used by someone who should definitely have known better.

 

I'm really really not convinced that Solas is possessed by anything, but even if he is, I don't think that the person that we met in Inquisition was a lie. There's too many inconsistencies if you believe that Solas is harboring two personalities. If you go back and replay the game after seeing the ending, a lot of things make more sense. It's well-foreshadowed, and gives many of his banters an additional layer of meaning. It really does make sense that Solas is some sort of ancient elf that did...something (locked up the gods?) in the past that he now feels incredible guilt about. 

 

I never said that he wasn't compassionate.  He's simply an ends justify the means person who is able to make his argument sound completely correct -- and this definitely jives with the old legends.

If he was able to make his arguments sound completely correct then people wouldn't be so weirded-out by his ideas about the Fade/Spirits. And being charismatic and convincing doesn't make one a Narcissist.

 

And if he was a 100% "ends justify the means" sort of person then he wouldn't be so conflicted about whatever he did in the past. But it obviously weighs heavily on him, even if it turns out that it really was necessary. Even Cole says, "you didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them." and, "you weren't wrong." 

[Tielis]

That was my point, so I'm not sure what yours is. I wouldn't consider a "master manipulator and narcissist" to have much genuine compassion for anyone.

 

Okay.  Machiavelli may also have been a pleasant person.

[Lui]

Yes, more Solas is needed!! (and with an option for a happy end perhaps? pls? )

[BubbleDncr]

Must have more Solas! My Inquisitor has no motivation to do anything now that he left her. And I tried starting another playthrough to romance someone else and I meet Solas and am like, "oh god, why bioware why?!?!?!?" 

 

I don't want to wait another 3 years to find out what happens next. Need a Solas version of Witch Hunt (Wolf Hunt)

[TheKinkyHuntress]

"The People" is a euphemism for the elven race, or sometimes the Dalish. Flemeth uses it that way. She says it in Origins and again in this game to a Dalish PC. If Morrigan's role is an indicator of what we can expect, I'd be very happy with that. I thought her development in this game was excellent and I'm hoping for a Wolf Hunt type plot in an expansion which would give the Solas romance a continuation of some sort.

I wonder at Solas' use of the word. Are his contemporaries from long ago who he is referring to? If so, are they now currently spirits? Silly thought.
Anyway, the writing I think is intentionally vague because we are dealing with beings that were originally established as gods. I'd love to see a

Spoiler

wolf hunt dlc in the future

that will expand upon this. No screw that. Let's have it addressed in the next game with Solas as a returning companion. They've done this before and these issues are so big only a second game's worth of explanations could do them justice.

[Tielis]

I've also known Narcissists, and Solas just doesn't seem like that at all.

 

I'm really really not convinced that Solas is possessed by anything, but even if he is, I don't think that the person that we met in Inquisition was a lie. There's too many inconsistencies if you believe that Solas is harboring two personalities. If you go back and replay the game after seeing the ending, a lot of things make more sense. It's well-foreshadowed, and gives many of his banters an additional layer of meaning. It really does make sense that Solas is some sort of ancient elf that did...something (locked up the gods?) in the past that he now feels incredible guilt about. 

 

If he was able to make his arguments sound completely correct then people wouldn't be so weirded-out by his ideas about the Fade/Spirits. And being charismatic and convincing doesn't make one a Narcissist.

 

And if he was a 100% "ends justify the means" sort of person then he wouldn't be so conflicted about whatever he did in the past. But it obviously weighs heavily on him, even if it turns out that it really was necessary. Even Cole says, "you didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them." and, "you weren't wrong." 

 

Again, I disagree.  Yes, he has regrets.  Yes, they bother him.  

 

And yet, he's aloof towards the modern elves.  Whatever his plan is, I don't think it is to save the modern elves.  I think his plan is to relieve himself of his guilt.

 

He falls in love with Lavellan and ends it too late in the most crushing way possible, imho.  To me, that says everything.  A truly noble person would not have done that, no matter how he felt.

 

Actions define a person, not words and not inner feelings.

[laxlily]

Since this topic has sparked so much debate, I'll throw in my 2 cents as well. I've read all the lore on Fen'Harel that Bioware has provided, in addition to other codex info on the ancient elves (if this allows me any credibility). 

 

 

Here's what I think in a nutshell. Solas IS the dread wolf. I think that Arlathan is the ancient elven city where he is from, and perhaps he betrayed his people somehow. I'm not really sure about the old gods, but I am leaning toward the idea that they are just extremely old, wise elves from the society who are revered for their wisdom. As far as Solas being a narcissist goes, sure, he's definitely proud of his race. And I think that he is frustrated with the lack of preservation of his culture, though based on game content, I'd say that he realizes that there really isn't any helping that. 

 

I definitely think that Bioware will continue the story on him, but as to whether or not it will be DLC or a new game, who can say? I certainly hope DLC, since I'd really LOVE to see my inquisitor continue a relationship with him. And yes, it would be totally badass to see the old elven culture come back and kick some major ass. 

 

I think that Solas did something, perhaps involving an eluvian, to either the Forgotten Ones (elven gods) or the elven of Arlathan, or maybe even the spirits of the fade. Here's the convo:

 

Cole: You don't need to envy me, Solas. You can find happiness in your own way.

Solas: I apologize for disturbing you, Cole. I am not a spirit, and sometimes it is hard to remember such simple truths.

Cole: They are not gone so long as you remember them.

Solas: I know.

Cole: But you could let them go.

Solas: I know that as well.

Cole: You didn't do it to be right. You did it to save them.

Inquisitor: Solas, what is Cole talking about?

Solas: A mistake. One of many made by a much younger elf who was certain he knew everything.

Cole: You weren't wrong, though.

Solas: Thank you, Cole.

[Solas]

Spoiler

Solas is a liar, that's a fact - he lied to the Inquisitor and the Inquisition. He also has the capacity to manipulate. But he wasn't lying when it came to his feelings for Lavellan, that was abundantly clear, and he's certainly not a narcissist (raised by a narc myself).

 

We have no idea if Solas is simply Fen'Harel or is in the same situation as Flemeth, that is, he once was a normal elf and he encountered the spirit of Fen'Harel in his wanderings of the Fade and now carries it with him (willingly? unwillingly? we don't know).

 

We have no idea about what happens in the post-credits scene. There are several different ways to interpret what happened. I think it was intentionally left unclear.

 

Solas has a complicated relationship with modern elves. Sometimes he says they aren't his people, sometimes he says they are. We're not sure who he's talking about when he says "The people, they need me".

 

It's way more complicated than simply, "Solas values spirits over physical people". 

 

The whole point of the revelations about elves in this game is that the legends - including the ones about Fen'Harel as the cunning trickster figure - are pretty much not right.

 

The Solas romance is so much more than just "omg heartbreaaak i need a happy ending biowareeeee" and his character is so much more than some poisonous manipulative guy with crazy issues. :S Did we experience the same romance?

 

The Solas romance is about themes. A god (or god-like figure) falls in love with a mortal. It's like mythology or fairytales (proper old fairytales, the ones that sometimes don't have happy endings - not modern Disney ones). It's about shades of grey and a tragic, conflicted figure. It's to tie in with the rest of the elf-centric stuff going on in the game; it's about world-shattering revelations. It's about understanding Solas' burden, past, motivations and agenda better.

[Addai]

Okay.  Machiavelli may also have been a pleasant person.

Well it's true, assholes sometimes accomplish more actual compassion than weak-kneed do-gooders, because they're willing to do the hard things. If that's what we're talking about, I agree that it's not a bad rubric to put Solas under. He could probably stand to be a little colder. It would torment him less.
 

Again, I disagree.  Yes, he has regrets.  Yes, they bother him.  
 
And yet, he's aloof towards the modern elves.  Whatever his plan is, I don't think it is to save the modern elves.  I think his plan is to relieve himself of his guilt.

What if those are two birds and one stone?

 

He falls in love with Lavellan and ends it too late in the most crushing way possible, imho.  To me, that says everything.  A truly noble person would not have done that, no matter how he felt.
 
Actions define a person, not words and not inner feelings.

By telling her that he cares for her and wishes it could be different? We have very different ideas of how bad a break-up can be.

To be clear, I don't think he's a white knight. That's kind of a big point of his character. He can be downright vengeful. Flemythal is the same way. It could well be that he ends up defined more by his purpose than by his personhood. I hope we'll get to play a role in influencing him.

[Tielis]

Well it's true, assholes sometimes accomplish more actual compassion than weak-kneed do-gooders, because they're willing to do the hard things. If that's what we're talking about, I agree that it's not a bad rubric to put Solas under. He could probably stand to be a little colder. It would torment him less.
 
What if those are two birds and one stone?

 By telling her that he cares for her and wishes it could be different? We have very different ideas of how bad a break-up can be.

To be clear, I don't think he's a white knight. That's kind of a big point of his character. He can be downright vengeful. Flemythal is the same way. It could well be that he ends up defined more by his purpose than by his personhood. I hope we'll get to play a role in influencing him.

 

He tells her he cares for her and wishes it could have been different AFTER they get that close?  Seriously.  Yes, I know Lavellan grabbed him and he was vulnerable because he feels like nobody cares for him and all, but come on...  taking her to a nice romantic place, telling her about the Vallaslin and offering to remove it, then just a flat  "I will not distract you from your duties again."  Cold.  Stone cold.

 

Everything else you said I agree with.  All I'm saying is that he's not to be excused for how he treated Lavellan and how he treats the modern elves.  Yes, it may very well be that his plan makes things better for them, but it's not his first priority.  

 

As trite as it sounds, hurt people hurt people.  And those are the toxic ones to stay away from.

[laxlily]

Spoiler

Solas is a liar, that's a fact - he lied to the Inquisitor and the Inquisition. He also has the capacity to manipulate. But he wasn't lying when it came to his feelings for Lavellan, that was abundantly clear, and he's certainly not a narcissist (raised by a narc myself).

 

We have no idea if Solas is simply Fen'Harel or is in the same situation as Flemeth, that is, he once was a normal elf and he encountered the spirit of Fen'Harel in his wanderings of the Fade and now carries it with him (willingly? unwillingly? we don't know).

 

We have no idea about what happens in the post-credits scene. There are several different ways to interpret what happened. I think it was intentionally left unclear.

 

Solas has a complicated relationship with modern elves. Sometimes he says they aren't his people, sometimes he says they are. We're not sure who he's talking about when he says "The people, they need me".

 

It's way more complicated than simply, "Solas values spirits over physical people". 

 

The whole point of the revelations about elves in this game is that the legends about Fen'Harel as the cunning trickster figure are not right.

 

The Solas romance is so much more than just "omg heartbreaaak i need a happy ending biowareeeee" and his character is so much more than some poisonous manipulative guy with crazy issues. :S Did we experience the same romance?

 

Honestly I have to wonder if it is left intentionally unclear so that Bioware can get ideas from the fans. Not an uncommon practice these days in game story-writing!

 

I most definitely agree that Solas is a very complex character who cannot be summarized in a few adjectives. There's clearly a history, which I'm assuming we will eventually learn.

 

And I agree that Fen'Harel being perceived as the trickster is also a misconception in the game, perhaps some bit of lore that was yet another misperceived fact conjured up by the dalish. 

[jellobell]

Again, I disagree.  Yes, he has regrets.  Yes, they bother him.  

 

And yet, he's aloof towards the modern elves.  Whatever his plan is, I don't think it is to save the modern elves.  I think his plan is to relieve himself of his guilt.

But he does have compassion for modern elves. In fact, one of the things that he mentions disliking about the Dalish is that they reject the city elves, calling them "flat-ears", which he sees as hypocritical. He tries to reach out to Sera in their banters together, too (even though they are complete opposites and she really gets on his nerves and he on hers).

 

Really, when he says "The people, they need me" at the end, I think he's talking about all elves.

 

He falls in love with Lavellan and ends it too late in the most crushing way possible, imho.  To me, that says everything.  A truly noble person would not have done that, no matter how he felt.

 

Actions define a person, not words and not inner feelings.

So you're blaming him for having feelings for her? Or are you blaming him for expressing those feelings? If you're judging him by his actions, then I think breaking up with her was a noble thing to do. He loves her, but he knows that he can't be with her, so stringing her along would be doing her a disservice, and he loves her too much for that. Basically he does what Anders didn't have the strength to do. He's trying to prevent her from being hurt even more in the long run.

 

I do wish he'd told her more, but he obviously feels that he needs to keep his identity a secret. It's a heartbreaking situation all around.

[Tielis]

And I agree that Fen'Harel being perceived as the trickster is also a misconception in the game, perhaps some bit of lore that was yet another misperceived fact conjured up by the dalish. 

 

And I seriously believe we're being trolled again!  The truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Tielis]

 If you're judging him by his actions, then I think breaking up with her was a noble thing to do. He loves her, but he knows that he can't be with her, so stringing her along would be doing her a disservice, and he loves her too much for that. Basically he does what Anders didn't have the strength to do. He's trying to prevent her from being hurt even more in the long run.

 

I do wish he'd told her more, but he obviously feels that he needs to keep his identity a secret. It's a heartbreaking situation all around.

 

Too little, too late, in my opinion.  You just don't do that to someone.  If you're emotionally unavailable, you're emotionally unavailable.

[Solas]

Spoiler

He was selfish, impulsive and ill-advised (which he admits), not cold. I can hardly blame him. His greatest fear is dying alone. He's an ancient being and has been alone for many ages. He's so full of quiet sadness and guilt and regret. He tries to stop the relationship from happening but it doesn't work. It's Lavellan that pushes the subject even after his warnings.

 

In the final romance scene specifically, he was anything but cold (he tried to be, for her own benefit - it's easier for her to get over him and "harden her heart" to fight Cory if she thinks he's a cold-hearted bastard). You can hear the pain in his voice and see the heartbreak on his face when he says stuff like "Please, vhenan" and "in another world" and "I can't". He doesn't want to leave her. But he thinks he has to. He leaves her because he cares about her. Arguably it would be colder and more selfish of him to maintain the relationship while he goes on to do what he's going to try and do - putting her in danger in the process. It's him that should pay for his mistakes, not her.

 

As for how he treats modern elves... consider how they have treated him.