23 réponses à ce sujet

[Coyote X Starrk]

I recently switched from my DW Rogue to Archery just to see how it felt and so far I am loving it far more than DW. So far personally I believe that the Archer class can be summed up like this. 

 

- Decent burst on some of the main moves.

 

- Great sustained damage. Between the CD times being relatively low and the Auto attack hitting decently. 

 

- Good escape move that also hits for a decent amount of damage with the upgrade. 

 

- The range keeps you out of trouble or gives you room to work if **** hits the fan. 

 

Combine all of that with a Spec like Tempest with an ability like Fire flask and you have some serious potential for High damage with low risk to the player. 

 

I feel like in a long drawn out fight the Archer is one of the better classes available. The Mage may be flashier and the DW Rogue may have higher burst, but the Archer to me has the better damage overall. Rather than it coming in short bursts with downtimes in-between damage the Archer's damage is spread out more evenly over time. So while it lacks the ability to end fights quickly I think it comes into its own in fights of attrition.

 

I am speaking from purely a damage perspective here in fights that last longer than normal. I am under no illusions that in single hit situations the Mage and DW Rogue have the upper hand. The Mage also has much more utility than the Archer with the CC and the ability to Revive/Protect companions.

 

Just looking for opinions here. 

 

Thoughts on the Archer class? What class would you rather be in a long drawn out fight? 

[Bronson]

I have only played an Archer to about level 5 from memory so my opinion is more theory that practice but i think mages are superior in your scenario due to their AOE abilities.

 

Archers single target damage is really good but is it superior to Fire/Rift/Necro mages Aoe ?

 

I have to admit i find their Auto attack really boring and annoying but that is probably just me.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

You are correct. I have 50+ hours played on hard difficulty playing a rogue archer.

Archer has some decent opening burst. But in fights - it is the good/high sustained damage over time that gives them an edge. Combined with stealth for escape and to disrupt rifts - its a solid choice. 

Melee Rogue on hard + nightmare is at the opposite side. Dangerous and not many safe openings to actually do damage, but your burst potential if built right can seriously WRECK enemies. The overall dps is lower for a melee rogue in long fights, but the burst potential and disruption potential ( if built more for that) is still very good. 

I would say DW rogue, atleast on hard+, is for more experienced players. It is high risk high reward. Archer is a solid and safe choice, but can end up boring. The constant long range is a huge plus vs dragons though.

[Ganen]

assassin is far superior dps than tempest tho, hidden blades scales insanely well with gear quality + poison (from sabotage)+ runes +all the assassin passive dps boost talents, and that coupled with mark, is just insane damage overall, so far nothing I tried can match it even remotely in long term single target dps.

tempest is okay, flask combined with all the poting talents and elixirs does give you strong burst dmg but nothing that allows competition with assassin.

 

http://forum.bioware...oles-nightmare/

[DrekorSilverfang]

Vastly outdamaged by a mage that also brings a huge amount of hard CC and barrier.

 

A necro mage with no fancy damage boosts or gear can maintain 625% weapon damage per second from DoTs alone. That doesn't include 1600% from fire mine, 400% from immolate, the 600% from walking bomb explosions or having clean burn and flashpoint to cut cooldowns down. Then if something dies you get the dead enemy as a minion and it comes with with a 75% damage boost.

 

The archer's damage isn't spread out over damage... it just doesn't exist.

[Ganen]

Vastly outdamaged by a mage that also brings a huge amount of hard CC and barrier.

 

A necro mage with no fancy damage boosts or gear can maintain 625% weapon damage per second from DoTs alone. That doesn't include 1600% from fire mine, 400% from immolate, the 600% from walking bomb explosions or having clean burn and flashpoint to cut cooldowns down. Then if something dies you get the dead enemy as a minion and it comes with with a 75% damage boost.

 

The archer's damage isn't spread out over damage... it just doesn't exist.

 

 

while I dont doubt a necro -> fire -> spirit mage can stand toe to toe in single target dps while vastly out dps'ing in aoe dps the archer, I dount he out dps'es him in long fights or single target based fights, and if it does it def wont be by much.

but dps isnt everything if you play on nightmare, especially if you use ff such a mage simply has no place in your party, he lacks minimal survivability and control while the archer can effortlessly both give support CC and remain almost completely free from enemy attack while he dps

[konfeta]

I'm actually curious, has anyone found any merit towards building an archer as an artificer? Traps don't really help, it's very party buff oriented, but the Focus skill is so clearly archery focused, so I am curious as to what Bioware was thinking there.

[Ganen]

I'm actually curious, has anyone found any merit towards building an archer as an artificer? Traps don't really help, it's very party buff oriented, but the Focus skill is so clearly archery focused, so I am curious as to what Bioware was thinking there.

 

also curious about this but I dont see it working well as an archer, but maybe, just maybe a viable hit and run close-mid range dagger rogue, I am testing several builds using sabotage subterfuge artificer and ofc dagger mixes but I lack gear for the effect but so far all builds suffer from stamina deprivation, tho the burst dmg with multiple traps/bombs+quick stab - restealth away to safety puts out very high burst with relative safety

[zeypher]

people actually ignoring a raver. A well built reaver can easily keep up.

[Ganen]

people actually ignoring a raver. A well built reaver can easily keep up.

 

very much doubt it, and even if true it would have to be a two hander reaver that needs to stay on low hp and thats way too high a gamble for nightmare, even higher than a pure dps mage.

[themaxzero]

while I dont doubt a necro -> fire -> spirit mage can stand toe to toe in single target dps while vastly out dps'ing in aoe dps the archer, I dount he out dps'es him in long fights or single target based fights, and if it does it def wont be by much.
but dps isnt everything if you play on nightmare, especially if you use ff such a mage simply has no place in your party, he lacks minimal survivability and control while the archer can effortlessly both give support CC and remain almost completely free from enemy attack while he dps

Well the Mage does give Barrier plus a Necro/Fire also has access to Horror and Fire Wall for CC. With careful point usage you can also squeeze in Static Cage. Rogue can't compete with that.

[Grimhand7]

very much doubt it, and even if true it would have to be a two hander reaver that needs to stay on low hp and thats way too high a gamble for nightmare, even higher than a pure dps mage.

Well Reaver is a 2 handed only specialization. Reaver's Focus Ability can't be used if you don't have a 2 Hander Equipped.

I was always on low HP on Nightmare WITH Friendly Fire on, and it was never, ever a problem. Every hit when Rampage is on full heals you anyway, and spamming Dragon Rage with a good weapon with proper Rune is stupid damage.

 

I solo'd the last Dragon in Emprise du Lion as a 2 Handed Reaver on Nightmare. The only time you can't sit on low health.as a solo Reaver is during add phases, but you have good CC options and enough burst that you shouldnt need mroe than 1 potion per add phase. In a party there is not much reason you can't sit at 5-10% if you wanted to. I mean using devour and heal over time potions to get back to full fast is better DPS because even at full health Dragon Rage does significantly more damage than other abilities or auto attacks.

[zeypher]

I Love rampage, with it + warriors resolve i can keep ring of pain up for its entire duration while dragon raging like nobody's business. It absolutely wrecks a dragon.

[Coyote X Starrk]

Vastly outdamaged by a mage that also brings a huge amount of hard CC and barrier.

 

A necro mage with no fancy damage boosts or gear can maintain 625% weapon damage per second from DoTs alone. That doesn't include 1600% from fire mine, 400% from immolate, the 600% from walking bomb explosions or having clean burn and flashpoint to cut cooldowns down. Then if something dies you get the dead enemy as a minion and it comes with with a 75% damage boost.

 

The archer's damage isn't spread out over damage... it just doesn't exist.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and playstyle. 

 

While you may have a point, it is not automatically the "best" playstyle for anyone anywhere. 

[Manki]

As an Archer, I can say I definitely put out the single target deeps. However my AoE options are completely viable. In fact, it's actually an extremley FF compatible method of dealing really good AoE damage.

 

Spec into poisons, and while you have the buff activated, tab target the enemies. The DoT is actually fairly significant when upgraded. Try it and tell me how it compares (I dont play a Mage)

[Ganen]

Well Reaver is a 2 handed only specialization. Reaver's Focus Ability can't be used if you don't have a 2 Hander Equipped.

I was always on low HP on Nightmare WITH Friendly Fire on, and it was never, ever a problem. Every hit when Rampage is on full heals you anyway, and spamming Dragon Rage with a good weapon with proper Rune is stupid damage.

 

I solo'd the last Dragon in Emprise du Lion as a 2 Handed Reaver on Nightmare. The only time you can't sit on low health.as a solo Reaver is during add phases, but you have good CC options and enough burst that you shouldnt need mroe than 1 potion per add phase. In a party there is not much reason you can't sit at 5-10% if you wanted to. I mean using devour and heal over time potions to get back to full fast is better DPS because even at full health Dragon Rage does significantly more damage than other abilities or auto attacks.

 

not going to rule out the possibility that you are a much better player and have alot more suffering threshold than me (for controlling nightmare+FF party with a reaver main and the terrible AI and absence of tactics) but I am very skeptical of this claim of yours, surviving is a big deal for a two handed warrior because of the lower guard and overall less defense stats coupled with the low health or health draining requirement to maximize dps output and the aoe dangers several abilities present it just scream "danger".

I would try it out but if there are vids demonstrating your claims would be nice, since Im testing other stuff.

and I really dont see a two hander reaver out dps'ing neither dps archer or mage really, I mean in aoe nothing beats the mage, thats a no brainer, in single target the warrior just doesnt have the means, sure some warrior abilities will have high CRITS, but those high crits can easily and consistently be matched or even suppressed by steady archer and mage spells (outside of combos and crits) like long draw hidden blades fire mine etc, and while a warrior relies on burst abilities, both mages and archers have other sustained dps capacities while they arnt hard hitting with their main nukes, a warrior does not.

 

ps: reaver is NOT two hander only spec, no spec is specific to weapon in this game, a few abilities do have requirements but nothing makes them mandatory really, in fact some specializations who were "intended" for certain weapons actually work just as well or better in others, example being assassin archer (who is meant for daggers)

[Grimhand7]

 

not going to rule out the possibility that you are a much better player and have alot more suffering threshold than me (for controlling nightmare+FF party with a reaver main and the terrible AI and absence of tactics) but I am very skeptical of this claim of yours, surviving is a big deal for a two handed warrior because of the lower guard and overall less defense stats coupled with the low health or health draining requirement to maximize dps output and the aoe dangers several abilities present it just scream "danger".
I would try it out but if there are vids demonstrating your claims would be nice, since Im testing other stuff.
and I really dont see a two hander reaver out dps'ing neither dps archer or mage really, I mean in aoe nothing beats the mage, thats a no brainer, in single target the warrior just doesnt have the means, sure some warrior abilities will have high CRITS, but those high crits can easily and consistently be matched or even suppressed by steady archer and mage spells (outside of combos and crits) like long draw hidden blades fire mine etc, and while a warrior relies on burst abilities, both mages and archers have other sustained dps capacities while they arnt hard hitting with their main nukes, a warrior does not.
 
ps: reaver is NOT two hander only spec, no spec is specific to weapon in this game, a few abilities do have requirements but nothing makes them mandatory really, in fact some specializations who were "intended" for certain weapons actually work just as well or better in others, example being assassin archer (who is meant for daggers)

 

If you want to use the Reaver's focus ability, you have to have to 2 hander equipped. This may be a bug true, but that is how it is currently coded. The ability will not be usable if you have a Sword and Shield, I tried. And since its 30% damage, attack speed and lifesteal its pretty insane not to want to use.

A Reaver ONLY relies on Dragon Rage, you don't need any other skill, you can spam it, and you do enough damage that you will kill a Dragon before you run out of healing. In fact, I only ever used 2-4 heal over time pots, I think I used a full heal pot like once or twice on my Reaver during Dragons.

You are vastly underestimating the output of Dragon Rage (which has no stamina or cooldown cost, heal over time pots will make it so you can spam it without worrying about killing yourself).

[Ganen]

   

If you want to use the Reaver's focus ability, you have to have to 2 hander equipped. This may be a bug true, but that is how it is currently coded. The ability will not be usable if you have a Sword and Shield, I tried. And since its 30% damage, attack speed and lifesteal its pretty insane not to want to use.

A Reaver ONLY relies on Dragon Rage, you don't need any other skill, you can spam it, and you do enough damage that you will kill a Dragon before you run out of healing. In fact, I only ever used 2-4 heal over time pots, I think I used a full heal pot like once or twice on my Reaver during Dragons.

You are vastly underestimating the output of Dragon Rage (which has no stamina or cooldown cost, heal over time pots will make it so you can spam it without worrying about killing yourself).

 

yeah the ultimate focus ability is just a portion of your overall dps really, its really a promptly activated high dps - high survival ultimate, and its very good, and I have zero doubts that the reaver is a pretty powerful hybrid spec, I just dont think it can compete at all with the likes of rift or knight enchanter and assassin rogue archer dps

was under the impression that was what we were talking about (dps and not overall class strenght), I did talk about the ability to survive thats the true, but only in the sense that a dps build that sacrifices dps to be able to stay alive or has to hold back on doing dps to stay alive, isnt a strong competitor unless it really picks up on the dps race by having much higher burst and I highly doubt a reaver has burst or sustained dps to compete with.

 

for example in terms of burst, my knight enchanter as gone as high as ~4.5k (6k+crits) with Fire mine (plus the dot) and this is an ability that with luck from talent procs can be used twice in a row, sure that 5k crit was due to combos and debuffs, but it still hits around 2k (crits 3.5k)with minimal effort, can a reaver pull out such numbers for burst? or sustained dps'ing?

[DetcelferVisionary]

If this topic is about what class can yield the highest amount of dps with a group (not solo) you are wrong if you picked anything other than DW - Assassin.   Mark of Death should be netting you 10k+ damage consistently and more if you're good, 50k+ if you're amazing.  That is a reflection of all other damage administered during that time.  So if you're mark explodes for 50k,  that means within 8 seconds you actually did closer to 100k.  Please,  tell me what class comes close to that?  None.  

 

The draw back?  DW must be constantly babied and positioned correctly 24/7 or they'll die.

[octavian1127]

In my experience, best sustained damage goes to the 2H Warrior. Is not as 'safe' as an Archer Rogue, but tankier stats make up for it. DW does have higher DPS, but is to flimsy to be reliable. Whirlwind is easily one of the best AoE skills in game when combined with stam regen passives.

[Nathonaws]

I haven't been a big fan of my archer companions - their damage seems about comparable to mages, but they lack the AOE/CC presense. I'm actually running triple mage + my rogue melee Inquisitor right now on hard/nightmare on PC.

 

It's nuts how much better ranged is than melee, and also how amazingly useful mages are. Honestly wish I rolled my inquisitor as a mage as well and either run 4 mages (one of every school!) or triple mage + tank.

[octavian1127]

There's an easy way to look at it. You compare weapon DPS across the classes, then you compare base weapon damage and your skill rotation damage ratios.

[Ganen]

There's an easy way to look at it. You compare weapon DPS across the classes, then you compare base weapon damage and your skill rotation damage ratios.

 

try comparing a spirit-fire-knight enchanter's barrier(if needed)-> fire mine -> immolate rotations  with a reaver 2 hander's first skill(forgot name)-dragon-devour-whirwind then

I honestly dont see (based on my tests with iron bull) a reaver staying toe to toe with neither archer assassin nor fire mage (both rift and knight enchanter, tho night enchanter survives way better for nightmare).

 

 

 

for example in terms of burst, my knight enchanter as gone as high as ~4.5k (6k+crits) with Fire mine (plus the dot) and this is an ability that with luck from talent procs can be used twice in a row, sure that 5k crit was due to combos and debuffs, but it still hits around 2k (crits 3.5k)with minimal effort, can a reaver pull out such numbers for burst? or sustained dps'ing?

 

this was at around lvl 18 (IIRC)

[Pi2r Epsilon]

I'm actually curious, has anyone found any merit towards building an archer as an artificer? Traps don't really help, it's very party buff oriented, but the Focus skill is so clearly archery focused, so I am curious as to what Bioware was thinking there.

I've only used it with Varric and not my main character, but it does make for nice teamwork if you build the team around crit and status effects and focus on Archery/Sabotage/Artificer crit support, and I imagine that if one controlled the archer most of the time it would be even better due to the ability to control range and get the most out of Long Shot.

 

Archery itself provides all the attacks that anyone could ever need, many of them with fairly short cooldowns, and when every crit by another party member reduces all the archer's cooldowns and your own crits restore stamina, you should be able to chain attacks very frequently. At least my moronic-AI controlled Varric is, so I can't help imagine it is even better when under player control.

 

It probably doesn't compete in personal damageoutput with the madness that is Assassination, but it works pretty well in a team built for the synergies presented and for some warriors and any other rogue in the party stacking +crit% is a great option in the first place.