80 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

@RangerSG,

Anora may have spoken to Riordan, but it does not mean that Riordan told her anything. Let us suppose Riordan did tell her about the Joining . Anora suggests it thinking it will give her father a chance at life, because after the duel Loghain's life is forfeit. Riordan must not have told her about how an Archdemon is killed.

Otherwise she would know that her father would jump at the chance to save the country if it came down to one of the Warden's planting the final blow.

He would do anything for his country (and has) and he believes it is his way of redeeming himself. Unless Riordan told her how an ArchDemon is killed and she is gambling that either Riordan or the PC will take the final blow. I mean there is a 1 in 3 chance that her father would be the one.

If you go to Loghain's room (Guest room) after meeting with Riordan, Loghain asks if he can be the one to strike the blow.

Anora does not know (and we do not either) that the probability will become 1 in 2. I would sacrifice Loghain and let him kill the ArchDemon. I am not going to leave it in his hands to rebuild the Wardens.

[wwwwowwww]

Oh yes I believe he was arrogant enough to believe he could find a work around

[TesseractSpace]

This is something that has bugged me in the game. Anora knows the ritual is dangerous because surely at some point someone had to have noticed that there were more Warden Recruits going into the ritual than coming out. One doesn't have to be a genius to figure out there might be potentially fatal consequences to the ritual, and I'm sure the information is available to an educated noble like the queen. Plus Loghain was a short walk away from where the ritual was being done, surely he noticed that only one recruit walked out after three walked in. He might have mentioned it in passing in some tirade about the Wardens.



But here's the thing (and it really bugs me if the character is a mage and therefore assumed to be an educated individual with hopefully some reasoning ability.) How could they miss that a warden was needed to kill the archdemon and that it was likely a fatal move to do so? There's a Codex entry that says the first blight didn't end till after the Grey Wardens were formed, their motto includes 'In Death, Sacrifice.' Plus the connection to the archdemon's thoughts, and the simple realization that the price for becoming a Grey Warden is a little steep just to have 'warden senses', there would have to be a greater purpose to becoming a Warden.

[Inzhuna]

What bugs me more is not the fact that Anora knows that Joining is often fatal but that she spoke it out loud in front of the whole Landsmeet. Well, so much for the Grey Wardens' secrecy. Now every Fereldan noble knows it, and no doubt they'll spread the word.

[Gilsa]

For me, it wasn't so much that Anora knew about this, but that she said it in a room full of bystanders listening in.

^Edit: Heh. Jinx!

Modifié par Gilsa, 26 janvier 2010 - 02:16 .

[wwwwowwww]

Inzhuna wrote...

What bugs me more is not the fact that Anora knows that Joining is often fatal but that she spoke it out loud in front of the whole Landsmeet. Well, so much for the Grey Wardens' secrecy. Now every Fereldan noble knows it, and no doubt they'll spread the word.

lol guess that's why we are recruiting in Orlais in Awakening, lol

[Inzhuna]

TesseractSpace wrote...

How could they miss that a warden was needed to kill the archdemon and that it was likely a fatal move to do so?

I think it is common knowledge that Grey wardens are needed to end the blight and slay the Archdemon, however, no one really knows why exactly it is so.
Plus, in previous blights there were more that 2 Grey wardens fighting the final battle, so I doubt anyone was surprised that some of them didn't survive it, including the one who made the killing blow. Also I don't think the Wardens would've stressed that this particular Warden landed the final blow and died.

[RangerSG]

Realmzmaster wrote...

@RangerSG,
Anora may have spoken to Riordan, but it does not mean that Riordan told her anything. Let us suppose Riordan did tell her about the Joining . Anora suggests it thinking it will give her father a chance at life, because after the duel Loghain's life is forfeit. Riordan must not have told her about how an Archdemon is killed.
Otherwise she would know that her father would jump at the chance to save the country if it came down to one of the Warden's planting the final blow.
He would do anything for his country (and has) and he believes it is his way of redeeming himself. Unless Riordan told her how an ArchDemon is killed and she is gambling that either Riordan or the PC will take the final blow. I mean there is a 1 in 3 chance that her father would be the one.
If you go to Loghain's room (Guest room) after meeting with Riordan, Loghain asks if he can be the one to strike the blow.
Anora does not know (and we do not either) that the probability will become 1 in 2. I would sacrifice Loghain and let him kill the ArchDemon. I am not going to leave it in his hands to rebuild the Wardens.

I don't disagree as far as you go. But to take it further, Anora may even know that Grey Wardens have a high propensity to die in battles with the Archdemon (after all, all the original Wardens fell in the battle with Dulat). But having her father die as a rehabilitated hero is a whole lot better than having him die as an executed traitor. So from any standpoint, this is better to her than the alternative of watching her father's head get taken off.

[Raven317]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

What bugs me more is not the fact that Anora knows that Joining is often fatal but that she spoke it out loud in front of the whole Landsmeet. Well, so much for the Grey Wardens' secrecy. Now every Fereldan noble knows it, and no doubt they'll spread the word.

lol guess that's why we are recruiting in Orlais in Awakening, lol

HA! I never thought of that! Mention recruiting in Ferelden and everyone will run away now! LOL!!!

[Commander Alrix]

maric learned about the joining ritual during his time in the deep roads with a young duncan and other grey wardens. seeing as how cailan loves tales, and loves the grey wardens, i'm sure a true tale about the grey wardens told to him from his father who had adventured with the wardens first hand, would be one that sticks. as cailan's queen, it's not surprising that she heard about it.

[wwwwowwww]

Commander Alrix wrote...

maric learned about the joining ritual during his time in the deep roads with a young duncan and other grey wardens. seeing as how cailan loves tales, and loves the grey wardens, i'm sure a true tale about the grey wardens told to him from his father who had adventured with the wardens first hand, would be one that sticks. as cailan's queen, it's not surprising that she heard about it.

I'm guessing you got this info from the books? 

[Commander Alrix]

yep. while someone earlier in the thread said that loghain had "extensive" contact with the wardens and could have learned about the ritual then, he did not. maric is the one who spent the majority of the calling book adventuring with a group of wardens, and learned about them then.

edit for being dumb.

Modifié par Commander Alrix, 26 janvier 2010 - 04:37 .

[wwwwowwww]

Well then you'd have to assume Lohgain got the info from Maric considering they were best friends correct?

[Commander Alrix]

it could be, but they were not your typical best friends. especially after maric became king, loghain never visited the castle and stayed in gwaren. during the second book loghain was, apparently, spending more time in denerim as maric's adviser, but the time in between the second book and the game is pretty much a big question mark. like i said, it's for sure a possibility that loghain learned of it then, i just see it far more likely that maric would tell the story to a wide-eyed cailan dying to know about the grey wardens, rather than loghain.

[melkathi]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I'm sorry; I'm willing to use logic, to reason, to search. But there just is no other explanation that really 'holds water' here. Jory must die in order to keep the ritual secret - but Anora knows about it (at least enough to know her daddy dearest might die)? Puh-leeze!

Yes, in the real world there might be ways around it, Riordan talking to her and so on (why would he, when he didn't talk to us, the other Grey Wardens?). But there is no ingame evidence for such. She knows - perhaps she's psychic? perhaps she's a prophet of the Maker, Andraste II? Perhaps her administrative talents give her uncanny insights into Warden rituals.

It's simply a hole - and a small one. No biggie. It's not the end of the world. Here have a tissue *passes around a box of Kleenex*. Now wipe your eyes and have a big blow. ;-)

Not only must Sir Jory die for nothing, Anora gets to talk about the joining in front of the assembled Landsmeet...

I too agree that it's a plot hole.

If Anora has a reason to know, then so does the dwarf noble.

It's a hole that happens too often in books, movies and games - once the audience knows some supersecret information, the informationc eases being as secret and various characters suddenly have the info as well.

[wwwwowwww]

melkathi wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I'm sorry; I'm willing to use logic, to reason, to search. But there just is no other explanation that really 'holds water' here. Jory must die in order to keep the ritual secret - but Anora knows about it (at least enough to know her daddy dearest might die)? Puh-leeze!

Yes, in the real world there might be ways around it, Riordan talking to her and so on (why would he, when he didn't talk to us, the other Grey Wardens?). But there is no ingame evidence for such. She knows - perhaps she's psychic? perhaps she's a prophet of the Maker, Andraste II? Perhaps her administrative talents give her uncanny insights into Warden rituals.

It's simply a hole - and a small one. No biggie. It's not the end of the world. Here have a tissue *passes around a box of Kleenex*. Now wipe your eyes and have a big blow. ;-)

Not only must Sir Jory die for nothing, Anora gets to talk about the joining in front of the assembled Landsmeet...

I too agree that it's a plot hole.

If Anora has a reason to know, then so does the dwarf noble.

It's a hole that happens too often in books, movies and games - once the audience knows some supersecret information, the informationc eases being as secret and various characters suddenly have the info as well.

Umm..... why would the dwarf noble have reason to know if Anora knows? Not follwing the logic on this one

[Gilsa]

Because the Grey Wardens go to the Deep Roads to die when the taint is about to overrun them. The Deep Roads are sealed in, only allowing passages for the Legion of the Dead who fight darkspawn on king's orders. So it stands to reason that the king of Ozrammar would have prior arrangements with the Grey Wardens to allow their members in for their final battles with the dark spawn. So the argument is that if Anora would know by association, then wouldn't the dwarf noble know because his father? Not that this means the king actually *knew* but just bringing it up for sake of argument.

[wwwwowwww]

Gilsa wrote...

Because the Grey Wardens go to the Deep Roads to die when the taint is about to overrun them. The Deep Roads are sealed in, only allowing passages for the Legion of the Dead who fight darkspawn on king's orders. So it stands to reason that the king of Ozrammar would have prior arrangements with the Grey Wardens to allow their members in for their final battles with the dark spawn. So the argument is that if Anora would know by association, then wouldn't the dwarf noble know because his father? Not that this means the king actually *knew* but just bringing it up for sake of argument.

Well my guess is there are other ways to access these deep roads considering I didn't notice and army of darkspawn walking through Orzamar trying to get to the front door.

[SusanStoHelit]

Well, my dwarven nobles certainly came across the darkspawn in the deep roads before they met Duncan. And further, even if the Wardens tried to keep a secret, the dwarves have millennia of daily evidence and experience, and also of watching Grey Wardens coming to fight and to die. I'm still pretty sure they didn't have any details though.

As I stated above, we can rationalise how Anora knew all we want, and yes it might technically be possible she somehow found out. But the simplest and most logical explanation is simply that it's a plot-hole. Like Alistair knowing about the Dark Ritual and its purpose at the gates of Denerim - and then magically not knowing after the coronation.

[Edited for idiocy on the part of the author.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 26 janvier 2010 - 06:50 .

[ozsras]

Well, Anora just said that it was fatal not that GW's had to kill the Archdemon. She didn't even mention the specifics of the Joining Ritual at the Landsmeet just that it was fatal. I doubt she knew anything more than anyone else on the streets of Ferelden. I mean Cailan might have heard all the stories about GW's (as Anora would have, maybe) but he didn't know why the GW's were the ones to take out the AD only that they did. Maybe he planned to fight with the GW's when the time came, to get his glory and all that, but I doubt Duncan or anyone else told him the truth. The GW's are pretty secretive about it, they don't even tell Alistair....



And as for the Landsmeet and Anora "outing" the GW secret - she didn't she only said what everyone else knew in that court. I mean, I think even the slowest person can figure out "several recruits go in only a few come out" must mean...not everyone makes it. I don't see the big deal really.

[MOTpoetryION]

i know i thought that also just another innersion breaker is all .just like the story behind thorn of the dead gods. broke into three pieces made into 3 daggers ,But they are not the same type of metal. and a few says ago i found a forth one
edit: she says that not all recrutes survive the joining

Modifié par MOTpoetryION, 26 janvier 2010 - 10:41 .

[SusanStoHelit]

ozsras wrote...

And as for the Landsmeet and Anora "outing" the GW secret - she didn't she only said what everyone else knew in that court. I mean, I think even the slowest person can figure out "several recruits go in only a few come out" must mean...not everyone makes it. I don't see the big deal really.

The 'big deal' is that your pc, Jory, and Daveth hadn't even heard that there was a ritual until they arrived at Ostagar. Jory in particular made a big deal of that.  Further, none of them know, unless you ask, that there is a risk of death even after they do know about the ritual. So - no, it isn't common knowledge. And it isn't common knowledge to: a human noble, a dwarven noble, a city elf .... I think you get my point.

[MOTpoetryION]

yes there are other ways into the deap roads you find that out from shale about his former master used to find way in that how he found shale and shales Quest you can see light through openings

[MOTpoetryION]

how about this one jugding by the the account of the commander and builder of wardens peak . they goes loony after to long with the taint . well one was like that when he went to deep roads and was overheard/ babbling about the joining ta da

[ozsras]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ozsras wrote...

And as for the Landsmeet and Anora "outing" the GW secret - she didn't she only said what everyone else knew in that court. I mean, I think even the slowest person can figure out "several recruits go in only a few come out" must mean...not everyone makes it. I don't see the big deal really.

The 'big deal' is that your pc, Jory, and Daveth hadn't even heard that there was a ritual until they arrived at Ostagar. Jory in particular made a big deal of that.  Further, none of them know, unless you ask, that there is a risk of death even after they do know about the ritual. So - no, it isn't common knowledge. And it isn't common knowledge to: a human noble, a dwarven noble, a city elf .... I think you get my point.

Well, Ser Jory isn't the brightest crayon in the box.

I honestly don't think it was a plot hole. Other NPC's talk about "joining" the GW's. But they don't know what the ritual is or what happens during it. I see it as the characters interchanging joining as in sign me up sarg! and not speaking about the ritual itself. Bad wording? sure. But I don't think it's a plot hole per say. Now a plot hole I wonder about is...where the hell did Hespith go? That's a plot hole. (to me anyways)

As for the Anora "outing" the wardens I don't get that. (shrugs) Is she also responsible for peanut butter being mixed in with chocolate? I've heard that's the greatest sin in Ferelden. :happy: