80 réponses à ce sujet

[wwwwowwww]

Who is Hespith? No clue who that is, so not sure how that's a plot hole.



She revealed particulars about a secret private joining ritual, that constitutes "outing" as it's being used. It's like fight club, you can know about fight club but your not supposed to talk about fight club

[SusanStoHelit]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Who is Hespith? No clue who that is, so not sure how that's a plot hole. 

Hespith, scary chant down in the Deep Roads, prior to Broodmother. You know:

"First day, they come and catch everyone.

Second day, they beat us and eat some for meat.

Third day, the men are all gnawed on again.

Fourth day, we wait and fear for our fate.

Fifth day, they return and it's another girl's turn.

Sixth day, her screams we hear in our dreams.

Seventh day, she grew as in her mouth they spew.

Eighth day, we hated as she is violated.

Ninth day, she grins and devours her kin.

Now she does feast, as she's become the beast."

[ozsras]

Hespith: messed up dwarf from the deep roads. Branka's lover or Branka's lover's lover. She was never clear, 'course you can't blame her, she was a bit broke in the head after what she had been through.

Yeah but if Anora knowing about the ritual is a plot hole then it's not really a big deal is it? I mean, no one at the landsmeet fainted, no one was slapped with a trout, no one clutched their pearls. I didn't see any of the nobles reacting at all.

All in all I bet it was one of the calmest Landsmeet in years.

edited to put in whole sentences.

Modifié par ozsras, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:48 .

[wwwwowwww]

Oh that chick, lol yeah I just wrote her off as crazy tainted lady and didn't give her much more thought. lol



No I don't think Anora knowing is a big deal to tell you the truth, because her knowing does't surprise me because it seems EVERYONE knew more about the grey wardens than I did or do.

[ozsras]

wwwwowwww wrote...

Oh that chick, lol yeah I just wrote her off as crazy tainted lady and didn't give her much more thought. lol

No I don't think Anora knowing is a big deal to tell you the truth, because her knowing does't surprise me because it seems EVERYONE knew more about the grey wardens than I did or do.

My first play through I didn't give her much thought either but in my second one I was like "hey! where did you go to lady?!".

Isn't that the truth? I swear dog knew more about the GW's than I did. I figured my noble was just stupid or spent his entire time at a ****house somewhere. I bet the nugs fear him.

[blademaster7]

Maybe it's a plot hole but it doesn't matter, really. Cailan most likely knew about the ritual and seeing how fascinated was with the Grey Wardens he probably shared some information with people close to him.

[Kenshen]

Don't forget that Morrigan also knows a lot about the Wardens, least on how to kill the archdeamon so who knows how much she does know and who she may have told along the way. It makes sense that Morrigan would want to see Loghain do the joining as that would be one more guy she gets a chance with to give her the child she wanted.

[Feresta]

I would say most nobles know it and come to think of it that might been real reason Teyrn Cousland  trying to prevent you becoming Grey Warden rather than the excuse he used.

Even if not then nothing really weird about Anora knowing about joining. Unlike archdemon bit joining been done continously opposed to single act last done 400 years ago. I would not be even suprised if she looked into it due to Cailan. Either by his request or to find out about the people her husband is so fixated on (security reasons for example). Same reasons apply to Loghain.

Another aspect of it is if you recall Duncan needing outside assistance (Mages, who are always watched by templars that answer to Chantry) so that is another possible leak outside.

Modifié par Feresta, 28 janvier 2010 - 09:40 .

[Bagheeris]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ozsras wrote...

And as for the Landsmeet and Anora "outing" the GW secret - she didn't she only said what everyone else knew in that court. I mean, I think even the slowest person can figure out "several recruits go in only a few come out" must mean...not everyone makes it. I don't see the big deal really.

The 'big deal' is that your pc, Jory, and Daveth hadn't even heard that there was a ritual until they arrived at Ostagar. Jory in particular made a big deal of that.  Further, none of them know, unless you ask, that there is a risk of death even after they do know about the ritual. So - no, it isn't common knowledge. And it isn't common knowledge to: a human noble, a dwarven noble, a city elf .... I think you get my point.

- It cannot be such secret that joining is dangerous. As TesseractSpace wrote, in > out . On the other hand, 400years have passed since the last blight and few people care about Grey Wardens.
- It is probably known, at least among dwarves, that Grey Wardens somehow "master" Darkspawn taint. Well, at least temporarily, but for long enough to be useful.
- The big secret is probably how Grey Wardens master the taint. If people knew they drink tainted blood ... almost like becoming sentient Darkspawn themselves ... very dangerous. I have not read the novels but afaik there was a warden who eventually lost his mind and decided to ally with darkspawn. I would speculate if Ser Jory backed out just after having returned from the Wilds, he would have been allowed to do so.

It may be a small plot hole, it may be not. Tho i agree that at least the son of Orzammar king should be aware of the taint and danger involved.

[melkathi]

wwwwowwww wrote...

melkathi wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

I'm sorry; I'm willing to use logic, to reason, to search. But there just is no other explanation that really 'holds water' here. Jory must die in order to keep the ritual secret - but Anora knows about it (at least enough to know her daddy dearest might die)? Puh-leeze!

Yes, in the real world there might be ways around it, Riordan talking to her and so on (why would he, when he didn't talk to us, the other Grey Wardens?). But there is no ingame evidence for such. She knows - perhaps she's psychic? perhaps she's a prophet of the Maker, Andraste II? Perhaps her administrative talents give her uncanny insights into Warden rituals.

It's simply a hole - and a small one. No biggie. It's not the end of the world. Here have a tissue *passes around a box of Kleenex*. Now wipe your eyes and have a big blow. ;-)

Not only must Sir Jory die for nothing, Anora gets to talk about the joining in front of the assembled Landsmeet...

I too agree that it's a plot hole.

If Anora has a reason to know, then so does the dwarf noble.

It's a hole that happens too often in books, movies and games - once the audience knows some supersecret information, the informationc eases being as secret and various characters suddenly have the info as well.

Umm..... why would the dwarf noble have reason to know if Anora knows? Not follwing the logic on this one

Hmm because he is actually one of the heris to the throne of a kingdom that still has contact with and respects the grey wardens, unlike Anora who's family only recently attained noble status or any status at that and who belongs to a society who believes the darkspawn have been beaten 400 years ago?
Basically this: the dwarves are the one group of people who know the most about darkspawn and respect the wardens the most. The dwarf noble player is second in line to the throne and about to become the general of the armies of Orzammar. You'd figure he was a person to know state secrets and seeing how his state actually ahs a good relationship with the Wardens, one would expect his state to be the one that knows their secrets if any state does.

[Solica]

I would say it's a plot hole. But not really a big one. It's even insignificant, IMO.
The Gray Wardens obviously guard their secrets very well, so no, Anora couldn't know. However, it's almost reasonable to assume that she might have some hunch that some recruits have gone missing, never to surface again.
I said "almost", because not really. This is an angle that the GWs must have considered centuries ago, and consequently covers very well. They can easily do this by not discussing the missions and whereabouts of individual GW with outsiders, and one must assume that's exactly how they would have covered it. Surely they would maybe eventually have to reveal to some relative that the person has fallen. They do not, however, have to reveal that he/she died already in the initiation rite.
They can also cover large part of this issue already at the choice of recruiting. None of my PCs sofar, in DA:O, has had much of family left.

And no! Anora would absolutely not have any access to such information just because she's a queen. GWs guard their secrets well. She's also unlikely to have had much contact with GW and GW recruits, so the ultimate assumption, that she could have observed the disappearance of GW recruits and deduced that the initiation rite is potentially lethal, is very poor and unconvincing indeed.

Conclusion: It's a plot hole. But it's hardly a big one. I mean, most circumstances regarding Loghain and Anora are gigantic plot-holes. Just close by, we have the idiotic thing that we should join Loghain. I mean why the h'? There's an unrevealed reason. But if we can join Loghain, why not just anyone?
Now, there's a plot hole!

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I thoguht it meant she (and everyone else) knew that GW die early from the taint.

[Kaoschizm]

The real plot hole here is the fact that it's a secret to start with. You're telling me Ser Jory's family isn't going to suspect something when he mysteriously disappears? what about all the other Grey Warden recruits over the years?

[Doyle41]

I'm just started reading the book, "The Calling." I feel there will be answers in here.

[SusanStoHelit]

Kaoschizm wrote...


The real plot hole here is the fact that it's a secret to start with. You're telling me Ser Jory's family isn't going to suspect something when he mysteriously disappears? what about all the other Grey Warden recruits over the years?

That is entirely irrelevant. As someone already pointed out. All the Grey Wardens have to do is say "I'm so sorry for your loss. Ser Jory (or whoever in the past) died valiantly. He gave his life in the fight against the darkspawn."

Edit: In other words - they lie. Just so you're clear.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 30 janvier 2010 - 01:53 .

[Forgotten Legend]

isn't it obvious? Anora is secretly a Grey Warden. And she'll be back in Awakenings to help us train more Grey Wardens.

[Sylriel]

Plot hole.



Just like the side quest "Informal Training Opportunities" from the Proving Armsman in Orzammar. You're supposed to be fighting young teams.



How is it possible that in one fight there is an Arcane Warrior when it is supposed to be an ancient, dead, lost fighting art? It's discovery required the main char to go have a chit chat with a trapped ancient soul in an ancient ruins in a spooky forest.



So yeah... I'm going with plot hole.

[Gold Dragon]

Kaoschizm wrote...


The real plot hole here is the fact that it's a secret to start with. You're telling me Ser Jory's family isn't going to suspect something when he mysteriously disappears? what about all the other Grey Warden recruits over the years?

Totally Unecessary.  Loghain Tells everyone that the Grey Wardens died entirely at Ostagar.  Jory's wife would then believe he died valiantly against overwhelming odds.  ANd with bodies strung out everywhere (and the fact that Duncan killed him with a weapon), no reason to disbelieve it.  After all, Valendrian, Cyrion & Shianni believe it (City Elf Origin), and even give you a funeral.....

It's Daveth that would have brought up uncomfirtable questions, had he had a family.  But then, they could have just taken his corpse out to the Wilds and stabbed it a few times.

Modifié par A Golden Dragon, 30 janvier 2010 - 04:28 .

[Kaoschizm]

A Golden Dragon wrote...

Kaoschizm wrote...


The real plot hole here is the fact that it's a secret to start with. You're telling me Ser Jory's family isn't going to suspect something when he mysteriously disappears? what about all the other Grey Warden recruits over the years?

Totally Unecessary.  Loghain Tells everyone that the Grey Wardens died entirely at Ostagar.  Jory's wife would then believe he died valiantly against overwhelming odds.  ANd with bodies strung out everywhere (and the fact that Duncan killed him with a weapon), no reason to disbelieve it.  After all, Valendrian, Cyrion & Shianni believe it (City Elf Origin), and even give you a funeral.....

It's Daveth that would have brought up uncomfirtable questions, had he had a family.  But then, they could have just taken his corpse out to the Wilds and stabbed it a few times.

I just think the families of the recruits might suspect something when 50% of the wardens die "valiently fighting the darkspawn" the day they are meant to become wardens.

[Solica]

Kaoschizm wrote...
I just think the families of the recruits might suspect something when 50% of the wardens die "valiently fighting the darkspawn" the day they are meant to become wardens.

As I've already pointed out, the GW have worked this for a very long time. Centuries. They absolutely have! We know this with 100% certainty, since it would otherwise be common knowledge that the initiation rite is potentially lethal. Anora cannot know, because no one knows. There's not even a rumour.

And I think it's somewhat feasible. They don't really recruit many, in the first place. It's not a common thing.This is a medieval society without horses. (somehow the player party teleports everywhere instantenously, but that's not a connected issue). They don't have to tell when someone died. I also have this feel that they don't tell at all, unless someone asks. They don't send some apologetic messenger with sorrowful face to the relatives.

And if someone comes asking, "who? don't think I know him. hey, Kurt, have you heard of some GW named Elgon? what? no Ilgon! Ilgon is his name." "not sure. might have. there was some called 'Ill gone' he, he, oh - sorry, but I think he died. thought I heard someone say that."

The GW doesn't run a service for relatives. Eventually, a persistent relative with lots of time, money and traveling shoes, would find a GW that can confirm the death. But it would take time, as not many GW would have known Ilgon. He would have to have been involved in that particular joining. This GW then probably is well prepared with a story.

Modifié par Solica, 31 janvier 2010 - 10:37 .

[Sresla]

And here I always thought the bigger plot hole at the Landsmeet was Riordin saying that instead of the noble and valiant people they supposedly recruit, what they're actually looking for is anyone who's willing to do it, including murders and traitors. I went from feeling somewhat special for being picked out to realizing that if they'll take Loghain, they'll take pretty much anyone who they can trick into downing the goblet of manky blood. GOOD JOKE DUNCAN. YOU GOT ME.

[Feresta]

How do you know nobody knows Solicia? Just because few people do not know about it does not mean that others might not. Do you really think the only rumours in game are what you have heard? We are also talking about ruling queen of entire kingdom, you think resources in her disposal are equal to your traveling around and listening gossips from few people.



Also I believe there is saying that devil is in details. Exact details of joining is secret, but lethality itself might not be. It is slightly different stating it is dangerous than you have to drink darkspawn blood.

[Solica]

Feresta wrote...

How do you know nobody knows Solicia? Just because few people do not know about it does not mean that others might not. Do you really think the only rumours in game are what you have heard? We are also talking about ruling queen of entire kingdom, you think resources in her disposal are equal to your traveling around and listening gossips from few people.

Also I believe there is saying that devil is in details. Exact details of joining is secret, but lethality itself might not be. It is slightly different stating it is dangerous than you have to drink darkspawn blood.

(Edit: P.S. The point I wanted to make above, was that if someone knows, the knowledge spreads. Partcularly over 400 years. So the conclusion is that the GW knows how to keep their secrets.)

Well, the feelings you get from conversations are pretty clear, I think. Everything Cailan says indicates that he just think the GW are a martial order. And Duncan doesn't care to inform him about that he actually knows it's a real Blight because he can sense the Archdemon...  Even though that information is pretty important. The GW keep all such things secret. "My father" for instance, as a noble, knows Duncan well, the Couslands once particpated in a rebellion involving GW (Warden's Keep), are well placed also because of participation in the revolt against Orlais, and yet, he shows no clue that there even is an initiation rite, never mind that it would be dangerous.
No one has a clue what the GWs really are. Not do they not only know anything, they don't even know there is something to know. And that's really the only way to keep a secret. Not Cailan, not Loghain, and thus not Anora either. How would she know? The GW are not even highly regarded anymore, with Loghains and many nobles.
The only ones who seem to know anything more about the GWs are the Legion of the Dead. And they don't communicate much.

But, ofc, that doesn't mean that she can't suspect that it's dangerous, and that her personality is such that she would state that emphatically. So you can accept it if you like.
Still, I think it's a plot hole. If it would not be, there would have been some at least slightly convincing explanation. There isn't.

Modifié par Solica, 31 janvier 2010 - 02:21 .

[Elfseeker]

Fairly sure this must have been pointed out before now, but here it is;



Knowing a ritual will kill you= one thing.

Knowing it involves drinking darkspawn blood, in commoners' eyes making you 'one of them'= another thing.

Done. The dying bit is not the secret. the contents of the cup is. Or at the very least, that they are supposed to swallow it, and not spread it in interesting patterns on the floor.

[Reaverwind]

Solica wrote...

IConclusion: It's a plot hole. But it's hardly a big one. I mean, most circumstances regarding Loghain and Anora are gigantic plot-holes. Just close by, we have the idiotic thing that we should join Loghain. I mean why the h'? There's an unrevealed reason. But if we can join Loghain, why not just anyone?
Now, there's a plot hole!

Exactly - if more wardens were needed - why is only Loghain looked upon as a likely candidate? I'd be looking for younger ones, myself!

Modifié par Reaverwind, 24 février 2010 - 04:38 .